Nokia: Android is like peeing "in your pants"

ScottM

Taxi to Parking
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Messages
42,530
Location
Variable, but somewhere on earth
Display Name

Display name:
iBazinga!
Hmm, interesting quote form the outgoing CEO of Nokia.

According to the Financial Times, Vanjoki "likens mobile phone makers that adopt Google's software to Finnish boys who 'pee in their pants' for warmth in the winter. Temporary relief is followed by an even worse predicament."
Phandroid explained Vanjoki's rationale in greater detail:

His thoughts came as a response to the now-age-old question regarding why Nokia hasn't adopted Android with his argument essentially being that the market is over-saturated as it is and that manufacturers would be stinting growth in the long run since it'll be hard for consumers to find meaningful differences from one piece of hardware to another. That would be a sensible conclusion, but I'm guessing HTC's, Motorola's, and Samsung's amazing performance since going all out with Android isn't being counted here.​


Personally I think the move to Android takes away innovation from the hardware makers and moves it to the OS maker. With homogenization of hardware, those companies left making phones will find themselves under even more pressure to reduce production costs. Soon no one will care if they have brand XYZ phone. All they will care about is what OS it has.

You can already see this with the iPhone. In case you did not know Apple does not really make the phone nor did it do the inside hardware designs. Apple did the OS and the industrial design. The phone is the product of a an OEM. The same will happen with Android.

I think what the Nokia CEO is missing is that by not having any sort of cool OS, and IMHO Symbian is not a cool OS, Nokia will be relegated to the sidelines.
 
nokia still makes phones?
Yes they do. They are the market leader globally.

The US is a niche market when it comes to phones. Because of Sprint and Verizon which use CDMA 1x RTT the US is but a bit player in the global cellular market which is dominated by GSM, it's evolutions and the WCDMA RTT (3G UMTS). Because of Sprint and Verizon you do not get to see a lot of the really cool phones and stuff that you would see if you were in Asia or Europe. The CDMA RTT is used only in a couple of places outside of the US. Japan's KDDI uses it as does Korea. But even in Japan KDDI is a small player when compared to NTT DoCoMo which uses WCDMA. Since Korea uses CDMA you see a lot of CDMA phone coming into the US from their. That is why you are probably seeing a lot of Samsung and LG phones here.

But Nokia has not jumped onto the bandwagon with a good OS and has been losing market share to iPhone and Android. Just a few years ago Nokia was at almost 40% market share and now they are down to 30%. Android and iPhone have been the prime reasons that they have lost that market share. RIM with its Blackberry has also been losing market share, but it was not a dominate player like Nokia.
 
Hmm, interesting quote form the outgoing CEO of Nokia.

LOL. I saw that the other day.


Personally I think the move to Android takes away innovation from the hardware makers and moves it to the OS maker. With homogenization of hardware, those companies left making phones will find themselves under even more pressure to reduce production costs. Soon no one will care if they have brand XYZ phone. All they will care about is what OS it has.

Well, perhaps it is just that the software is being ripped away from the phone makers. I used to buy Sony Ericsson phones, because they played well with Mac OS X. But right before the iPhone came out, I had had enough of them because it seemed like all they were doing was folding and spindling the same HW & OS into different shells. The innovation had stagnated. Thank goodness the iPhone came out then and I jumped ship.


I think what the Nokia CEO is missing is that by not having any sort of cool OS, and IMHO Symbian is not a cool OS, Nokia will be relegated to the sidelines.

I've read a different take recently. An analyst thought about who was using Android or likely to switch to it. Apple is clearly not. Neither is RIMM. Probably not Nokia, but who knows. That basically left everybody else. These happened to be all the companies that were losing money in the phone biz. And not only that, Apple has taken a ton of cellphone profits, while having a very low unit market share. The charts are eye-popping!

Link: http://www.asymco.com/2010/08/17/androids-pursuit-of-the-biggest-losers/

Update: http://www.asymco.com/2010/09/21/can-android-change-the-profit-share-of-phone-vendors/

(ht: Daring Fireball)
 
...the US is but a bit player in the global cellular market .

Scott is that because our telephone ( Land line) system is in better shape and more extensive than much of the world, say Mexico, Caribean, India and thus its cheaper and more efficient for a guy in Gunajuato Mexico to use a cell phone?
 
whats a land line?

42-15210171.jpg
 
Scott is that because our telephone ( Land line) system is in better shape and more extensive than much of the world, say Mexico, Caribean, India and thus its cheaper and more efficient for a guy in Gunajuato Mexico to use a cell phone?
Nope. has nothing to do with our land line system.

I am speaking about the wireless part of our cellular choices.

In the beginning there was AMPS, ETACS and NMT and the telco gods said it was good. In the US we adopted AMPS. In Europe there was ETACS, NMT-900, NMT-450 and a small German standard that I cannot even remember. With each country having its own spectrum and different systems the ability to roam was non-existent.

Europe decided that for their 2nd generation (2g) cellular to unify the spectrum, from that also grew a decision to make 2G digital and from that GSM was formed.

Meanwhile in the US bandwidth and capacity is what was needed. The pathway was to go digital with a TDMA air interface. But a small company, mostly involved with government communications had another digital technology called CDMA that they wanted to push into the cellular market. The FCC decided that it would be best to let the market decide what technology to use. The FCC freed up some spectrum in the PCS bands (1.9GHz) and then issued licenses. TDMA and CDMA duked it out, only uniting to prevent GSM from becoming dominate.

In the end Cingular (now AT&T) went TDMA, Airtouch, Bell Atlantic, NYNEX (now Verizon) went CDMA. Sprint came into the mix and seriously considered something called N-AMPS and TDMA but decided upon CDMA after playing with the other technologies. As a side not the capacity gain of the US TDMA was exactly the same as the N-AMPS analog technology. CDMA was promising a 40x increase which actually turned out to be about a 7x increase in reality.

While all this was happening Asia was booming. Japan, owing to its protectionist trade policies, was still using a homegrown cellular system call J-TACS. It never was adopted by anyone. The Japanese were not too welcomed in Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, etc. Lots of hurt feelings over the conquest that had happened in the 1930/40's.

So Asia started looking at AMPS, ETACS and eventually GSM. The GSM came to be dominate for a few factors. First lots of equipment choices from Ericson, Nokia, Motorola, etc. made it cheaper than CDMA/TDMA. Plus Asia had the same roaming issues as Europe. The GSM system itself handled roaming better than the IS41 system that TDMA and CDMA used, it was optimized for international dialing plans. The network for TDMA and CDMA basically was set up for North American dialing plans. GSM also used sim cards which made device management and sales easier. The Asians did not want to manage the sale of devices like in the US. They wanted to invest money in their networks not the subscriber equipment. In the US a typical operator has more capital money wrapped up in mobile phone subsidies than they do in network equipment.

The result is that GSM was just about everywhere but the US. Then 3G talks started up.

By this time it became apparent that TDMA was the technological loser. Cingular was merging with AT&T Wireless and converting systems to GSM. CDMA was being evolved to CDMA 1x and 3x (never deployed) while GSM was adding all kinds of new capabilities, GPRS, EDGE, and then UMTS. A huge sale of spectrum in Europe for 3G happened and drained the coffers of many a company but it locked in UMTS as a technology. There was a road map to upgrade one's GSM networks to UMTS. Anyone on CDMA would have a path to 1x but would have to rip everything out to go to UMTS. This effectively kept the US an island.

The change to getting the US to no longer be an island is happening with 4G. The two main 4G technologies are WiMAX and LTE.

WiMAX is already commercial. Mostly to companies with new spectrum best used for a TDD system. Clearwire is the company in the US. With its partners Sprint and Comcast you are seeing service offerings. The other technology is an evolution of UMTS called LTE. Verizon is very much interested in that and will deploy later this year as is T-Mobile.

It is a long story and I am sure I missed a few details of the 20+ year story of cellular. But I think you get the picture.
 
Scott is that because our telephone ( Land line) system is in better shape and more extensive than much of the world, say Mexico, Caribean, India and thus its cheaper and more efficient for a guy in Gunajuato Mexico to use a cell phone?

It is because a collusion between equipment manufacturers and the market dominant wireless providers, the US carriers decided to continue doing their own thing at a time when the international standard emerged.
 
It is because a collusion between equipment manufacturers and the market dominant wireless providers, the US carriers decided to continue doing their own thing at a time when the international standard emerged.
Nope.

CDMA and TDMA were as much an international standard as GSM.
 
Nope.

CDMA and TDMA were as much an international standard as GSM.

Mh right, they both were used in the US, and right, the US, oh and maybe one of its colonies like Canada :thumbsup:

Nope. has nothing to do with our land line system.

Indirectly it does: Through the 'A-system' / 'B-system' division and its link to the local landline carriers and the initial parcellation of the market that only abated after the big fish eventually ate all the little fish. Big nationwide monopolies like they existed in europe at the time had different motivations in how to deploy fixed and mobile equipment than the local phone-company affiliated carriers common in the US early on.
 
The manufacturers have long been at the mercy of the carriers in terms of design, basic specs, and features. Innovation on the hardware end was stifled due to carrier requirements. We're already seeing the same thing on the software side: witness Verizon's crippling of features on Skype which is preloaded on the new Android (and other) phones.

The carriers love this because it gives them even more control over what's on your phone (just try and remove some of the preloaded apps from a VZ Android without rooting the phone).

In the end, it's all about the carrier being a gatekeeper and charging for that screen space....

It will take another Carterphone decision to make it change...
 
Mh right, they both were used in the US, and right, the US, oh and maybe one of its colonies like Canada :thumbsup:
CDMA was deployed and commercial in Japan, Australia, China, eastern Europe. Are those all "colonies" of America?

TDMA was used through central and South America.
 
My buddy over here just bought a new Nokia whiz bang phone. I have both an iPhone and Android phone, both are completely intuitive. I think the iPhone is a bit more elegant in software structure and the Android a bit more capable in features. The Nokia we have both come to the conclusion is a worthless POS ready to be thrown overboard.
 
My buddy over here just bought a new Nokia whiz bang phone. I have both an iPhone and Android phone, both are completely intuitive. I think the iPhone is a bit more elegant in software structure and the Android a bit more capable in features. The Nokia we have both come to the conclusion is a worthless POS ready to be thrown overboard.
I have to agree too. I got an iPhone earlier this week and had been using an Android phone. I really like the iPhone and the apps on it seem so much better developed.
 
CDMA was deployed and commercial in Japan, Australia, China, eastern Europe. Are those all "colonies" of America?

TDMA was used through central and South America.


Australia was, until it was bought by China, which coincided pretty much with the end of CDMA in Aus....:dunno:
 
Australia was, until it was bought by China, which coincided pretty much with the end of CDMA in Aus....:dunno:
Well cdma is a pretty old standard these days. There is still some in China, Japan and of course the US and its colony Canada ;) . I think all of the TDMA has also been sucked up by other technologies. While GSM is still the ubiquitous and the clear 2G voice tech winner. The big move is toward data standards. Lots of HSPA variants out there, LTE, LTE-A and WiMAX are being deployed in many markets now.
 
Last edited:
Well cdma is a pretty old standard these days. There is still some in China, Japan and of course the US and its colony Canada ;) . I think all of the TDMA has also been sucked up by other technologies. While GSM is still the ubiquitous and the clear 2G voice tech winner. The big move is toward data standards. Lots of HSPA variants out there, LTE, LTE-A and WiMAX are being deployed in many markets now.


I've been using T-Mo for a long time and best I can recall they've always been GSM in the US. It's always annoyed me that there isn't an international standard, but what really p-sses me off is International Data Roaming rates. WTF over!!! I have to carry 2 phones, one with my US number (currently a My Touch 4G from HTC), T-Mo does good at roaming world wide and offers UMA "Internet Calling", and one unlocked SIM card phone (currently an iPhone 3GS) to drop a local SIM in where ever I am (Currently on Singtel). I really need to be made Dictator of The World, because the telcom guys would all make a "code share" deal and anyone could go anywhere on their phone plan.
 
I've been using T-Mo for a long time and best I can recall they've always been GSM in the US.
I know that they bought what started as Omnipoint. I cannot recall if Omnipoint ever was TDMA (IS54). I know when OmniPoint became Voicestream they were GSM. Then T-Mobile bought them out.

It's always annoyed me that there isn't an international standard,
GSM, CDMA, TDMA, 1xEV-DO, UMTS, WIMAX are all international standards fully endorsed by the ITU. I think what you mean is that not one of the many international standard is used everywhere.

but what really p-sses me off is International Data Roaming rates. WTF over!!! I have to carry 2 phones, one with my US number (currently a My Touch 4G from HTC), T-Mo does good at roaming world wide and offers UMA "Internet Calling", and one unlocked SIM card phone (currently an iPhone 3GS) to drop a local SIM in where ever I am (Currently on Singtel). I really need to be made Dictator of The World, because the telcom guys would all make a "code share" deal and anyone could go anywhere on their phone plan.
Yeah international data is a huge ripoff. It used to be that way for voice too.
 
..."likens mobile phone makers that adopt Google's software to Finnish boys who 'pee in their pants' for warmth in the winter. Temporary relief is followed by an even worse predicament."...
This is a classic business failing. You were winning, but then you got beat, but you don't want to accept defeat. Your choices now are between "also ran" or "irrelevant", but you can't accept being an "also ran" because you used to be a leader, so you reject the strategy that guarantees you also ran status, fail at your hopeless attempts to re-achieve leader status, and end up in the irrelevant bin.
-harry
 
This is a classic business failing. You were winning, but then you got beat, but you don't want to accept defeat. Your choices now are between "also ran" or "irrelevant", but you can't accept being an "also ran" because you used to be a leader, so you reject the strategy that guarantees you also ran status, fail at your hopeless attempts to re-achieve leader status, and end up in the irrelevant bin.
-harry

What he said.

w/r/t to LTE, I am very concerned about international interop, especially before we have software-programmable LTE radios in phones.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Back
Top