No wonder Chrysler is going broke.

Maxmosbey

Final Approach
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
5,247
Location
San Juan, PR/Ames, IA
Display Name

Display name:
I need to get serious.
In 2006, I bought a 2005 Dodge Dakota pickup truck at a Chrysler dealership about thirty miles from where I live. They told me that if I brought it in to them for regular servicing that they would warranty the drive train for as long as I owned it. So I drove it for a couple of years, religiously taking it the thirty miles down there for servicing. Last year, the transmission started slipping. I took it in, and they rebuilt the transmission. $2300 bill, and I ended up paying $50. I guess there is a $50 deductible in the fine print. I'm not complaining. I was glad to pay the $50. So today I took it down for an oil change, and there is a little rust spot on the back door down low in the corner. The service manager got down and looked at it. He started poking at it with a screw driver, and got it out to the size of a dime. He told me that it shouldn't be rusting like that, and that my Dakota has a 5yr warranty for rust. He sent me to the body shop, and the body shop guy says that it is in a bad spot, so he can't fix it. I must have looked pretty sad and disappointed, because the body shop guy ordered a new door, and they are changing it out next week, gratis. I think I'll buy another truck from those guys some day.
 
They probably think you might tell other people about the customer service you have received, and that some of them might be favorably disposed towards their product line. Even if you decide to keep it to yourself and not tell anybody.

In 2006, I bought a 2005 Dodge Dakota pickup truck at a Chrysler dealership about thirty miles from where I live. They told me that if I brought it in to them for regular servicing that they would warranty the drive train for as long as I owned it. So I drove it for a couple of years, religiously taking it the thirty miles down there for servicing. Last year, the transmission started slipping. I took it in, and they rebuilt the transmission. $2300 bill, and I ended up paying $50. I guess there is a $50 deductible in the fine print. I'm not complaining. I was glad to pay the $50. So today I took it down for an oil change, and there is a little rust spot on the back door down low in the corner. The service manager got down and looked at it. He started poking at it with a screw driver, and got it out to the size of a dime. He told me that it shouldn't be rusting like that, and that my Dakota has a 5yr warranty for rust. He sent me to the body shop, and the body shop guy says that it is in a bad spot, so he can't fix it. I must have looked pretty sad and disappointed, because the body shop guy ordered a new door, and they are changing it out next week, gratis. I think I'll buy another truck from those guys some day.
 
They probably think you might tell other people about the customer service you have received, and that some of them might be favorably disposed towards their product line. Even if you decide to keep it to yourself and not tell anybody.

Granger Motors in Granger, IA
 
Aren't the dealers pretty cheerful about performing warranty work, because they bill the factory for the work done?
-harry
 
Aren't the dealers pretty cheerful about performing warranty work, because they bill the factory for the work done?
-harry

No, because the factory allotted time for warranty work is rarely close to the actual time spent. Ask a service mgr at your dealer next time you're there. They hate warranty work.
 
No, because the factory allotted time for warranty work is rarely close to the actual time spent. Ask a service mgr at your dealer next time you're there. They hate warranty work.

Without the intent of sending this SZ: This is a very interesting analogy for healthcare reform -- charge the market X (when you can figure out what X is), or take insurance recieve the "UCR" Y, where X > Y.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Aren't the dealers pretty cheerful about performing warranty work, because they bill the factory for the work done?
-harry

I don't know if this is still true, but the arrangement used to be that the factory supplied the parts, and the dealer supplied the labor. It makes the "replace the door" scenario easier to understand.

-Skip
 
IOW, the factory knows the flat-rate book normally used by the dealers is a ripoff, and will only pay for the actual time required for the job. That's the biggest difference between car shops and aviation shops, the airplane guys can't get by with using flat rates.

No, because the factory allotted time for warranty work is rarely close to the actual time spent. Ask a service mgr at your dealer next time you're there. They hate warranty work.
 
IOW, the factory knows the flat-rate book normally used by the dealers is a ripoff, and will only pay for the actual time required for the job. That's the biggest difference between car shops and aviation shops, the airplane guys can't get by with using flat rates.

Another difference is when some design flaw is found:

Automotive: Recall, and mfg gets to pay to fix the problem
Aviation: Airworthiness Directive, and the owner gets to pay to fix the problem.
 
IOW, the factory knows the flat-rate book normally used by the dealers is a ripoff, and will only pay for the actual time required for the job. That's the biggest difference between car shops and aviation shops, the airplane guys can't get by with using flat rates.

In regards to the flat-rate books being a rip-off.

I wouldn't say this is true. We have all probably played the weekend warrior at home and fixed the sink, toilet, porch, door, whatever...

From experience we all probably know by now, what should take 1 hour, ends up taking 3. Things happen.

The factory books are designed to document the time it takes to perform a job, and that time is fairly accurate (the first time you do it.) Actually it likely takes longer the first time or two you perform the job.

As the mechanic does the job over and over again, he becomes more proficient, and that job time becomes less and less. He finds the tricks to make the job easier, he buys a tool he needs to make the job easier. He gets the same job done, in less time. But it's his experience that allowed that to happen. Now the experience mechanic gets paid more, because he can produce more work in a given day than the non-experience mechanic.

If we did that job at home every day, we'd become proficient as well. Eventually that job that should take us an hour, only takes 30 minutes...
 
Last edited:
I don't know if this is still true, but the arrangement used to be that the factory supplied the parts, and the dealer supplied the labor. It makes the "replace the door" scenario easier to understand.

-Skip

The "factory" pays for the entire repair for the three OE's I've worked for since the 80's.
 
In regards to the flat-rate books being a rip-off.

I wouldn't say this is true. We have all probably played the weekend warrior at home and fixed the sink, toilet, porch, door, whatever...

From experience we all probably know by now, what should take 1 hour, ends up taking 3. Things happen.

The factory books are designed to document the time it takes to perform a job, and that time is fairly accurate (the first time you do it.) Actually it likely takes longer the first time or two you perform the job.

As the mechanic does the job over and over again, he becomes more proficient, and that job time becomes less and less. He finds the tricks to make the job easier, he buys a tool he needs to make the job easier. He gets the same job done, in less time. But it's his experience that allowed that to happen. Now the experience mehcanic gets paid more, because he can produce more work in a given day than the non-experience mechanic.

If we did that job at home every day, we'd become proficient as well. Eventually that job that should take us an hour, only takes 30 minutes...

Well stated. :thumbsup:
 
In regards to the flat-rate books being a rip-off.
Some is, some ain't.

The factory books are designed to document the time it takes to perform a job, and that time is fairly accurate (the first time you do it.) Actually it likely takes longer the first time or two you perform the job.

As the mechanic does the job over and over again, he becomes more proficient, and that job time becomes less and less. He finds the tricks to make the job easier, he buys a tool he needs to make the job easier. He gets the same job done, in less time. But it's his experience that allowed that to happen. Now the experience mechanic gets paid more, because he can produce more work in a given day than the non-experience mechanic.
When I have been involved in the flat rate process, the service guys showed up and asked one of my (engineering / design) techs to do a job while they ran the stopwatches. Well, he did that one job (and nearly only that one job) day in and day out. I don't think you could beat that flat rate. No way, no how.

Then there was my dad - worked in a dealership (back in the olden days) and invented his own tool for one common job that let him get it done in 15 minutes instead of the 2 hour book time (did the job without removing the parts).

Some jobs are gravy, some are not so hot so... It pays to be on good terms with the service writers...

Not a flat rate story - but back when I was a young punk engineer, I was on a test trip to Denver and we needed to swap out the rear axle in one of the test cars - 2.3L Mustang II - so we took it to a dealership for the heavy lifting part. While one of the cars is sitting in the service bay and we are standing around waiting for the axle and remembered that I need to swap out the carburetor (I told you it was back when I was young, right?) - so I ask the grizzled old service tech. (he must have been in his 50's :rofl:) if I could do it while we waited - he didn't like the idea - said we only had about 5 or 10 minutes to wait...
"No problem" I reply.
So as I set my tool bag down and lean under the hood, the tech. launches into a tirade about the *&^$*@# carbs on these 2.3L engines...
As he started the story I went to work. First I ripped off the maze of vacuum hoses without even stopping to think (I was the one who decided where they went in the first place and I did these carb swaps at least twice a day, five days a week). Then I reached into my tool bag and grabbed exactly the right extension that had exactly the right socket already on it. Spun off the easy to get to nuts, then I stuck it into exactly the right place at exactly the right angle to get to this one difficult to find nut just about the time the tech. had started to complain about how hard it is to even FIND find that nut much less get it out without dropping it...
Now, I can hear that he is really just starting to really warm up to the rant, but at that point I stand up, turn around, carburetor in one hand, the "hidden" nut in the other.
He looked at me, his eyes got big, and he just stopped talking...
I think he was impressed.:rofl:
 
When I have been involved in the flat rate process, the service guys showed up and asked one of my (engineering / design) techs to do a job while they ran the stopwatches. Well, he did that one job (and nearly only that one job) day in and day out. I don't think you could beat that flat rate. No way, no how.

I have seen that as well. I was obviously making a generalized statement, which is what started this mess :D

You are correct though, have seen quite a few jobs that couldn't be done in the allotted time.

For the most part however, I find the books to be fair.
 
The title confused me. I thought the OP was going to say something bad about Chrysler. Instead he said they gave great service and that he would buy from them again. Was I just missing the irony? And as for the dealerships liking or not liking warranty work because of the flat rate system, only the slow mechanics don't like it. The good mechanics are fine with it (in as much as you can generalize).
 
The title confused me. I thought the OP was going to say something bad about Chrysler. Instead he said they gave great service and that he would buy from them again. Was I just missing the irony? And as for the dealerships liking or not liking warranty work because of the flat rate system, only the slow mechanics don't like it. The good mechanics are fine with it (in as much as you can generalize).

I think he was getting at the idea that he has a dime-sized rust spot on the door and they are replacing the whole door, and they rebuilt his transmission for $50, etc. Definitely looks like a negative cash flow for Chrysler on the surface.

As already mentioned, though, *hopefully* the program is paying for itself with increase in future business.
 
>Definitely looks like a negative cash flow for Chrysler on the surface.

To me it looks like Chrysler is standing behind the product. (this from
a Ford guy)
 
Daimler Benz got out just at the right time.
 
IOW, the factory knows the flat-rate book normally used by the dealers is a ripoff, and will only pay for the actual time required for the job. That's the biggest difference between car shops and aviation shops, the airplane guys can't get by with using flat rates.

OK, how about this? I don't know if it is the same with auto manufacturers as it is with appliance manufacturers, but you go out to a customers home under the manufacturers warranty, have to order a part under warranty because it is too new an item to have ever needed to stock said part, pay for said part up front, then return to customer's home to install said part, and then submit the warranty paperwork crossing all t's and dotting all i's, and, if they find no procedural error on anyone else's part, including their own, you get reimbursed for the part, and $60 labor. Try to pay all overhead and technician's wages out of that. We do not sell 95% of the units we sell, so don't give me the "you made the profit at time of sale" garbage either. Not that there is enough profit on the sale of the unit to pay for much anyway.

Man, I need to find another line of work. sheesh
 
Back
Top