No more practical test observers

kgruber said:
In 1977 another pilot and I were taking a 135 check. I was flying and we were going to an obscure airport.

The FAA inspector was in the front right seat. My pal was in the back right.

I had not seen it yet, but out of the corner of my eye I saw "pal" in the back seat pointing to it!
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That's just good CRM :)
 
So video the check ride instead. Same result with no chance of 'non-verbal cues'.
 
azure said:
I suspect the "nonverbal cues" were being given during the oral part.
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I can't think of one non-verbal cue a CFI could give other than the middle finger, and that isn't going to help pass an oral question

azure said:
My CFII was at my instrument oral and except for one instance when he backed me up when the DPE was wrong about something, faded into the woodwork.
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This is EXACTLY why I'd like to have a CFI(I) in the room during an oral.

warthog1984 said:
The issue isn't CFIs training to the DPE, it's outside observers being witness to some of the kangaroo DPEs the FSDOs are protecting. Some of the FSDOs are notorious for this.
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If there's a problem during a test, it'll be a "he-said, she-said" with the DPE winning no matter what ... I'd say they need to allow recording then, ESPECIALLY based on the DPE above getting corrected by a CFI.
 
Given the problems with various DPEs lately, you'd think the FAA should be encouraging observers...
 
Clip4 said:
I prepare my students to pass the check ride from any DPE the student choses for the test. I realize many CFI's like to funnel their students to one examiner, but it is a practice I disagree with.
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At the private pilot level, it's highly unlikely that the student is going to know or even be familiar with any of the DPE's unless they also happen to instruct at the school.
 
MikeELP said:
At the private pilot level, it's highly unlikely that the student is going to know or even be familiar with any of the DPE's unless they also happen to instruct at the school.
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Depends on the area. Around here, some of the schools have essentially turned the local DPEs into celebrities, with social media and what not. They're pretty well known. There's others appointed in the area that aren't and tend to work with the "quieter" schools, that don't spend as much time posting stuff online.

No big deal either way, just saying that isn't always true.
 
It looked to me like technically the requirement to use a "test generator" affects literally every applicant, but if they're prepared, not in any way they would notice. :)

Just mandated randomization of stuff you're supposed to know already anyway.

Surprised no one has mentioned it, though. Everyone is hung up on having a babysitter along.
 
Interesting. I never knew that CFIs did this (observed either the oral or flight portions).
 
danhagan said:
I can't think of one non-verbal cue a CFI could give other than the middle finger, and that isn't going to help pass an oral question
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Really? :rolleyes:

DPE: What are the VFR cloud clearance requirements for Class E airspace below 10,000 feet?

Student: 1000 feet bel... <CFI looks up> I mean above, 500 below, 2000 horizontally.

That's probably pretty lame but it was just off the top of my head. I'm not saying that CFIs in the room were actively trying to help students out, but probably some would flinch at a wrong answer or smile when a student recited something the CFI had placed special emphasis on.

As others have said though, it's pretty easy to prevent this by having the CFI sit behind the student or at least out of his line of sight.
This is EXACTLY why I'd like to have a CFI(I) in the room during an oral.
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Not to brag or anything, but that particular point was one I knew pretty well and could have defended my answer using the AIM all by my lonesome if needed. But yeah, I agree. DPEs aren't perfect either, and I'd hate to see anyone given a hard time on an oral because a DPE was wrong, when a CFI could have prevented it.
If there's a problem during a test, it'll be a "he-said, she-said" with the DPE winning no matter what ... I'd say they need to allow recording then, ESPECIALLY based on the DPE above getting corrected by a CFI.
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I think an even more compelling reason was given by someone either here or on the Red Board, where the DPE was allegedly overbearing and abusive throughout both the oral and the flight part. I think most DPEs would admit error and concede the point on an issue of fact or regulations, once given the correct info, even if it was after the exam. Also, a single wrong answer is generally not enough to bust someone, and I doubt that the DPE would be wrong on enough points to make the difference between passing someone and busting them. IOW I'd be more concerned about inappropriate and unprofessional behavior, or even general mental deterioration on the part of the DPE, than a DPE busting someone because of a gap in their knowledge and then lying about it to cover their butt.
 
danhagan said:
This is EXACTLY why I'd like to have a CFI(I) in the room during an oral.



If there's a problem during a test, it'll be a "he-said, she-said" with the DPE winning no matter what ... I'd say they need to allow recording then, ESPECIALLY based on the DPE above getting corrected by a CFI.
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Disagreement/misunderstanding of a single question or point isn't generally cause for failure...you simply clarify it with your CFI after the checkride.

if there are enough disagreement pints to cause failure, you go to a different examiner for the retest, and "he said/she said" doesn't matter, either. It's an added expense, but not otherwise significant in the grand scheme of things.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Disagreement/misunderstanding of a single question or point isn't generally cause for failure...you simply clarify it with your CFI after the checkride.

if there are enough disagreement pints to cause failure, you go to a different examiner for the retest, and "he said/she said" doesn't matter, either. It's an added expense, but not otherwise significant in the grand scheme of things.
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:yeahthat: :thumbsup:
 
MauleSkinner said:
Disagreement/misunderstanding of a single question or point isn't generally cause for failure...you simply clarify it with your CFI after the checkride.

if there are enough disagreement pints to cause failure, you go to a different examiner for the retest, and "he said/she said" doesn't matter, either. It's an added expense, but not otherwise significant in the grand scheme of things.
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Some DPEs use their positions to carry out personal vendettas. And neither the facts, logic, or a mountain of proof to the contrary seems to bother the FAA machine at all.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Why would an applicant go to a DPE who has a "personal vendetta" against them? :dunno:
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Agreed. Those are the guys who in a fairly short amount of time, lose a substantial amount of business, unless, of course, they are the only game in a fairly large geographic area (we are talking about airplanes, right?)
 
BTW, what really triggered this whole thing was one of the FAA lawyers wanted to ride along on a 709 ride, and they started looking to see if that was authorized or not.
 
Everskyward said:
Interesting. I never knew that CFIs did this (observed either the oral or flight portions).
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It's been standard procedure for PIC's instructors for decades, at least for the oral, and I've sat in on many dozens of orals. OTOH, I never go along on the flight -- my nerves and heart couldn't take it.
 
The DPE invited my CFI along on my PP ride back in 2001. Poor guy had to sit in the back seat of that 172 and keep his mouth shut. :D I passed.

My CFII wasn't there for my IR ride(s). No big deal to me. His presence or lack thereof made no difference to my getting too low on a non-precision approach the first time.
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, what really triggered this whole thing was one of the FAA lawyers wanted to ride along on a 709 ride, and they started looking to see if that was authorized or not.
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There's a joke there involving an open door...
 
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