No luck with Surefly Ignition. Tech support awful. Engine won't start

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George j Gratton

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George Gratton
Installed Surfly with a certified repair station on a new (0-time) Lycoming. Engine ran fine on the test stand with mags. Engine stumbled with Surfire on, smooth on the mag. When Tech support finished "helping" the engine will no longer run at all. Their "advise" made no reasonable trouble shooting logic but was blindly followed, even as it contradicted Surfly's own documentation. I have spent a fortune in unrecoverable mechanic's time, audited his work in front of 3 witnesses, and he did nothing wrong initially. Only after reconfiguring the plane to tech support demands did the engine completely fail to run. Surfly then failed to operate on the magneto test stand. Not one of the engine builders I contacted recommended Surfire, so I guess I am a slow learner. Now I am still awaiting warrantee replacement, but of course they missed their scheduled delivery.
PS: for safety sake the fuse to the battery should be at the battery connection, not at the Surefly side,as shown on the Surefly Installation manual. An unprotected short to ground anywhere along the wire routing could cause a serious fire hazard. Who in the FAA approved this mistake?
 
I haven’t heard a lot of good things about any of the new electronic ignitions. Hard to beat a good ol magneto. I briefly thought about trying e-mag but decided to stick with tried and true.
 
You are the dummy that wanted a SureFly. Putting 1990 technology on a 1937 engine design doesn’t Heidi much.
 
I'm currently getting an impulse-coupled SF installed on my AG5B during annual, as well as a new right-side slick mag. Perhaps unrelated to your issue, there were some problems related to 24v airplanes that were reportedly resolved in the latest revision D version of Sureflys. I know multiple people who are very happy with theirs. HOPEFULLY I will be another one them soon.
 
What engine and is the electrical 24V? Had one installed on my old Mooney and it has been flawless. Installer has done at least a dozen in the last 18 months with no difficulties. I did have an A&P install a mag a few years ago based on the exhaust stroke of #1. That wouldn’t start either.
 
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If it ran roughly at first, and now not at all, it's probably failed already. Especially if it won't even spark on the test stand.

As far as 1990 technology on a 1937 design: this is for generating a good hot spark at exactly the right time. The engine doesn't care who or what made that spark. Electrons are no different now than they were in 1937. But magnetos are a lot better than they were in 1937; they've had a lot of time to develop, and yet they still need regular maintenance or they'll eventually fail you. And the magneto manufacturers regularly dream up even more ways to screw them up, and then issue ADs and SBs so you can spend more money to fix them.

Magnetos are mechanically and electrically far more robust than most electronic devices; electronic stuff bolted to a hot, vibrating, oily machine had better be built to take that without failing. E-Mag had problems with this too. You will note that automobiles have a stout crank or cam position sensor on the engine, along with the coil pack; everything electronic is behind the firewall where the environment is more friendly.

ABS brakes for big trucks came out in about 1976. They had wheel speed sensors at each wheel, and cables running to a central controller to modulate the air pressure to the brake actuators. They were a perfect nightmare, and most operators tore them off and threw them away. Road salt. Dirt. Rocks and gravel. Sticks on logging roads. Snow, Ice, Rain, cold weather, hot weather. Those sensors didn't like any of it.

Just because something is new doesn't make it instantly better. Sometimes---no, often---it needs maturing before it's reliable enough. And too often it's the customer that pays for that process.
 
Clip4 said:
You are the dummy that wanted a SureFly. Putting 1990 technology on a 1937 engine design doesn’t Heidi much.
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You’re so Heidi.
 
George j Gratton said:
Installed Surfly with a certified repair station on a new (0-time) Lycoming. Engine ran fine on the test stand with mags. Engine stumbled with Surfire on, smooth on the mag. When Tech support finished "helping" the engine will no longer run at all. Their "advise" made no reasonable trouble shooting logic but was blindly followed, even as it contradicted Surfly's own documentation. I have spent a fortune in unrecoverable mechanic's time, audited his work in front of 3 witnesses, and he did nothing wrong initially. Only after reconfiguring the plane to tech support demands did the engine completely fail to run. Surfly then failed to operate on the magneto test stand. Not one of the engine builders I contacted recommended Surfire, so I guess I am a slow learner. Now I am still awaiting warrantee replacement, but of course they missed their scheduled delivery.
PS: for safety sake the fuse to the battery should be at the battery connection, not at the Surefly side,as shown on the Surefly Installation manual. An unprotected short to ground anywhere along the wire routing could cause a serious fire hazard. Who in the FAA approved this mistake?
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You're omitting any details... can you describe the guidance from SureFly? You misspelled SureFly two different ways; that's creative, but doesn't give us any help understanding what the underlying issue is... unless you can't describe SureFly's guidance to you, then maybe that's a clue?

We want to help, or at least understand, but you've given us zero to work with... that's just wasting our time.

paul
 
George j Gratton said:
Installed Surfly with a certified repair station on a new (0-time) Lycoming. Engine ran fine on the test stand with mags. Engine stumbled with Surfire on, smooth on the mag. When Tech support finished "helping" the engine will no longer run at all. Their "advise" made no reasonable trouble shooting logic but was blindly followed, even as it contradicted Surfly's own documentation. I have spent a fortune in unrecoverable mechanic's time, audited his work in front of 3 witnesses, and he did nothing wrong initially. Only after reconfiguring the plane to tech support demands did the engine completely fail to run. Surfly then failed to operate on the magneto test stand. Not one of the engine builders I contacted recommended Surfire, so I guess I am a slow learner. Now I am still awaiting warrantee replacement, but of course they missed their scheduled delivery.
PS: for safety sake the fuse to the battery should be at the battery connection, not at the Surefly side,as shown on the Surefly Installation manual. An unprotected short to ground anywhere along the wire routing could cause a serious fire hazard. Who in the FAA approved this mistake?
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I LOVE mine. one of the best airplane improvements. Problem hot starts are a thing of the past. Either you got a rare defective unit or you installed it wrong. When I call them, they help me.

Maybe somebody else is the problem.

And ditto on the rant being your first post.
 
I believe Lycoming is offering SureFly as an option on some new engines. Lycoming must believe in the product.
Are you relaying what the shop is telling you Surefly said, or have you actually heard the conversations firsthand?
 
Grum.Man said:
I haven’t heard a lot of good things about any of the new electronic ignitions. Hard to beat a good ol magneto. I briefly thought about trying e-mag but decided to stick with tried and true.
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Something OTS from pretty much any car made in the last two decades would be way better than any of the mags on our planes.
For the OP, if the product is defective, it's defective. Most die right off the bat, luckily (as with most electronic failures.) The short story is you got a bad one. If it works when replaced, story over.
 
Grum.Man said:
I haven’t heard a lot of good things about any of the new electronic ignitions. Hard to beat a good ol magneto. I briefly thought about trying e-mag but decided to stick with tried and true.
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I also bought an E-mag for my experimental Lancair. No troubes there. Electronic mag did make Lyc o-290 better.
 
I will be watching this thread. I am having almost the same problem with a surefly I ordered a couple weeks ago. Sent it back Tuesday and waiting to hear from them. I bought what they call a Rebuilt Sim. It was a couple hundred less than new. After my issue, I asked why the one I bought had been returned originally. All they will say is “ Our Factory Rebuilt SIMS go through all of the same inspection process as a new SIM.“

Although I am an experienced aircraft mechanic (Air Force), I had an A&P, who does my annuals, attempt to install it.

My issue is an intermittent/failed LED, that is required to time and set the the advance. Never even tried to run the engine. Did spend 20 minutes on the phone with “tech support”, who seemed strangely unfamiliar with how the module is built.

It’s going on a first run factory new O-320 Lycoming. Surefly is refusing to talk about reimbursing the failed installation costs..so far.

BTW@ the OP. Did you file a SDR yet?
I haven’t posted here in may years and forgot my username. So, I am technically a newbie. Found this thread doing a search for Surefly problems.

I’ll post my results when it is resolved.
 
I’m a member of the Grumman Gang, and I have not heard of any issues with the 12 volt units. Every user so far is extremely happy with the unit and support they received, if required.
 
I tried to have one installed in a Husky with an O-360. First on the left side (wouldn’t fit) and then the right. Once on the right the airplane ran very rough with a 200+ RPM drop on the SureFly. After accomplishing all the items they recommended, they told me that they were seeing issues with the SureFly when installed on an engine using fine wire plugs. So that one went back as well. I ate the labor fees for the two attempts to install them, but SureFly refunded me for both SIMS.

They were very nice to deal with.
 
Rcmutz said:
I’m a member of the Grumman Gang, and I have not heard of any issues with the 12 volt units. Every user so far is extremely happy with the unit and support they received, if required.
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Until now I guess. First time for every thing. Maybe being a rebuilt has something to do with it.
 
Hop said:
Until now I guess. First time for every thing. Maybe being a rebuilt has something to do with it.
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Surefly was very polite and nice to deal with, just not successful. 2nd mag also arrived reasonably promptly but was not set up correctly and ran rough. It was easy enough to fix, just reset dip switches. I cannot figure how they don't set these at the factory, especially after it was a customer return/exchange part. I also found their wiring instructions faulty, putting a fuse at the mag end of the battery circuit, leaving a wire fron the tail cone to the engine unprotected from overcurrent, and potential fire risk. I won't mention the Surfly will "drop out" when you lower the landing gear on a week battery. Yeah, that happened to me too.
 
Surfly called my mechanic today and said they found an internal fault in the mag returned. I am pleasantly surprised with their candor.
 
George j Gratton said:
Surfly called my mechanic today and said they found an internal fault in the mag returned. I am pleasantly surprised with their candor.
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Was yours a rebuild or factory new? Is Surefly offering to cover any of the costs for the first attempt? Seems like they should, considering it was DOA.

Please; file an SDR ( service difficulty report), with FAA. It’s form 8070-1
 
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PaulMillner said:
You're omitting any details... can you describe the guidance from SureFly? You misspelled SureFly two different ways; that's creative, but doesn't give us any help understanding what the underlying issue is... unless you can't describe SureFly's guidance to you, then maybe that's a clue?

We want to help, or at least understand, but you've given us zero to work with... that's just wasting our time.

paul
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I thought wasting time was the entire point here on POA :).
 
We've only got about 10 hours on hours (ferry flight home from shop, a BFR, and an 8-hour trip across the country) but it's been great so far. Hot starts now a non-event, and I'm pretty sure we're getting another two or three knots LOP.

Love it so far. In disclosure, I did bring the replaced mag and harness after reading some of the older stories about the 24V system issues, addressed in the recent revision which we have.
 
Just checked and we have over 145 hrs on a Surefly , as mentioned earlier hot starts are better, maybe half gallon an hour less fuel burn , we love it in the Dakota . We did replace the complete harness at the same time as recommended by Surefly
 
I love the Surefly on our Warrior. It is nice knowing the airplane will always start in seconds.
 
Scrabo said:
Just checked and we have over 145 hrs on a Surefly , as mentioned earlier hot starts are better, maybe half gallon an hour less fuel burn , we love it in the Dakota . We did replace the complete harness at the same time as recommended by Surefly
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My good bud's Dakota has dual bendix magnetos. Did yours not?
 
George j Gratton said:
Surefly was very polite and nice to deal with, just not successful. 2nd mag also arrived reasonably promptly but was not set up correctly and ran rough. It was easy enough to fix, just reset dip switches. I cannot figure how they don't set these at the factory, especially after it was a customer return/exchange part. I also found their wiring instructions faulty, putting a fuse at the mag end of the battery circuit, leaving a wire fron the tail cone to the engine unprotected from overcurrent, and potential fire risk. I won't mention the Surfly will "drop out" when you lower the landing gear on a week battery. Yeah, that happened to me too.
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The instructions clearly state how to set dip switches, depending on engine and variable timing needs
At least with mine it did...
PA28-140 O-320-E3D
 
Reliable electronic ignition is certainly possible. The relatively newly designed Rotax 912 injected for example uses dual computers to control spark and injection.
 
George j Gratton said:
Surefly was very polite and nice to deal with, just not successful. 2nd mag also arrived reasonably promptly but was not set up correctly and ran rough. It was easy enough to fix, just reset dip switches. I cannot figure how they don't set these at the factory, especially after it was a customer return/exchange part. I also found their wiring instructions faulty, putting a fuse at the mag end of the battery circuit, leaving a wire fron the tail cone to the engine unprotected from overcurrent, and potential fire risk. I won't mention the Surfly will "drop out" when you lower the landing gear on a week battery. Yeah, that happened to me too.
Click to expand...

The illustration in the instruction manual showing the fuse in the power line does have a note saying to locate the fuse as close as possible to the power source. It would be misleading to just look at the pictures and not read the directions.
 
Heidi[6] is an orphaned girl initially raised by her maternal grandmother and aunt Dete in Maienfeld, in the Grisons, after the early deaths of her parents, Tobias and Adelheid (Dete's brother-in-law and sister). Shortly after the grandmother's death, Dete is offered a good job as a maid in the big city, and takes 5-year-old Heidi to her paternal grandfather's house, up the mountain from the Dörfli ('small village' in Swiss German). He has been at odds with the villagers and embittered against God for years and lives in seclusion on the alm, which has earned him the nickname 'The Alm-Uncle'. He briefly resents Heidi's arrival,

Well, that's depressing...................
 
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