No FAF on precision approach.

[Teller1900]

When I was going for my instrument my II pounded it into my head that there is no FAF on a precision approach, only the glideslope intercept at the specified glideslope intercept altitude. The Maltese cross on the approach chart is the FAF only for the non-precision approach.

I used to know where to find the reference in the AIM, but unfortunately I don't have an AIM with me here in STL, and it has become a topic of continuing discussion during my recurrent training. If anyone knows the section number describing the ILS (bonus points if you can point me to an online source) it would be much appreciated!

Bonus question:
Service volume of a loc and GS.

Go.

 

[ghogue]

When I was going for my instrument my II pounded it into my head that there is no FAF on a precision approach, only the glideslope intercept at the specified glideslope intercept altitude. The Maltese cross on the approach chart is the FAF only for the non-precision approach.

I used to know where to find the reference in the AIM, but unfortunately I don't have an AIM with me here in STL, and it has become a topic of continuing discussion during my recurrent training. If anyone knows the section number describing the ILS (bonus points if you can point me to an online source) it would be much appreciated!

Bonus question:
Service volume of a loc and GS.

Go.

If you have the internet, you always have the AIM.

Here ya' go.
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/

And here for the symbols.
http://naco.faa.gov/content/naco/online/pdf_files/8th_IAP_Symbols.pdf

From AIM P/CG

FINAL APPROACH FIX- The fix from which the final approach (IFR) to an airport is executed and which identifies the beginning of the final approach segment. It is designated on Government charts by the Maltese Cross symbol for nonprecision approaches and the lightning bolt symbol for precision approaches; or when ATC directs a lower-than-published glideslope/path intercept altitude, it is the resultant actual point of the glideslope/path intercept. .

GLIDESLOPE INTERCEPT ALTITUDE- The minimum altitude to intercept the glideslope/path on a precision approach. The intersection of the published intercept altitude with the glideslope/path, designated on Government charts by the lightning bolt symbol, is the precision FAF; however, when the approach chart shows an alternative lower glideslope intercept altitude, and ATC directs a lower altitude, the resultant lower intercept position is then the FAF.

Thumbnails from NACO IAP Symbols.

 

[Teller1900]

Perfect! Found the FAF stuff in my Jep symbol glossary, too. It wasn't in the AIM after all.

I found the service volume for the GS in the AIM, but I didn't see it for the LOC. Did I just glance past it? I couldn't get any of the images in that version of the AIM to load, if that could explain it.

 

[MikePapa]

I found the service volume for the GS in the AIM, but I didn't see it for the LOC. Did I just glance past it? I couldn't get any of the images in that version of the AIM to load, if that could explain it.

(a) To 10 degrees either side of the course
along a radius of 18 NM from the antenna; and
(b) From 10 to 35 degrees either side of the
course along a radius of 10 NM. (See FIG 1-1-6.)

It's also possible that the GS could have an extended service volume, but this is generally only at some airports that have air carrier ops.

Some LOC and GS may have their service volume modified by NOTAM or in the A/FD.

 

[ghogue]

I couldn't get any of the images in that version of the AIM to load, if that could explain it.

What browser are you using? I use Firefox and Safari, and no problems loading any images. I've used that site for years and never a problem.

 

[Teller1900]

(a) To 10 degrees either side of the course
along a radius of 18 NM from the antenna; and
(b) From 10 to 35 degrees either side of the
course along a radius of 10 NM. (See FIG 1-1-6.)

It's also possible that the GS could have an extended service volume, but this is generally only at some airports that have air carrier ops.

Some LOC and GS may have their service volume modified by NOTAM or in the A/FD.

Thanks, that's what I needed. There's no NOTAMs for the airports we're concerned with, but we're pretty sure they have increased service volumes. I just haven't bothered to dig up an A/FD yet.

What browser are you using? I use Firefox and Safari, and no problems loading any images. I've used that site for years and never a problem.

I'm on my HP mini using this crap browser that it comes with. It loads what I think are figures, but they're so small I can't read them, and I can't figure out how to zoom. It's no worries, I think I've got it all figured out.

 

[TMetzinger]

So, apparently there IS an FAF on a precision approach?

 

[ScottM]

So, apparently there IS an FAF on a precision approach?

Yes

FINAL APPROACH FIX- The fix from which the final approach (IFR) to an airport is executed and which identifies the beginning of the final approach segment. It is designated on Government charts by the Maltese Cross symbol for nonprecision approaches and the lightning bolt symbol for precision approaches; or when ATC directs a lower-than-published glideslope/path intercept altitude, it is the resultant actual point of the glideslope/path intercept.

Teller's CFI-I was at least half correct it would seem. The Maltese cross is the FAF for the non-precision approach. Probably he knew what was right and just wrote it, stated it in a not as clear as regulatory language can be. I saw that because Teller also wrote that his CFI-I mentioned the GS intercept.

 

[Teller1900]

So, apparently there IS an FAF on a precision approach?

Of sorts.

Yes



Teller's CFI-I was at least half correct it would seem. The Maltese cross is the FAF for the non-precision approach. Probably he knew what was right and just wrote it, stated it in a not as clear as regulatory language can be. I saw that because Teller also wrote that his CFI-I mentioned the GS intercept.

That's basically how I'm understanding it. I don't have the NACOs, but on the Jep glossary (in all but one figure) it refers to the glide slope intercept only as the "beginning of the final approach segment." The way I square it in my head is that there is no actual fix (nothing with a name) and the Maltese cross definately does not apply. The final approach point (and I think that's the key word) is GS intercept at the specified altitude (as shown on the chart or lower if authorized by ATC).