Night Requirements for Commercial Cert

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neilw2

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I am working towards getting all my requirements done for my commercial SEL rating and had a question:

According to 61.129(4ii) A Commercial Single Engine Candidate is required to have logged "5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower."

Looking at my logbook I have 10 touch and goes at a airport where the tower was open.

I know to have night currency the landings have to be full stop, but as I read it my touch and goes would satisfy the requirements of that part of the commercial cert. Am I right?
 
neilw2 said:
Well that was simple. Thanks!
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They (POAers) probably aren't done with you yet. Stand by for incoming! :rofl:

61.129 (4ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
 
Note that those 10 takeoffs and landings are under the solo/PIC portion of the requirements...
 
mondtster said:
Note that those 10 takeoffs and landings are under the solo/PIC portion of the requirements...
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midwestpa24 said:
And in my opinion, is one of the oddest certificate requirements ever.
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It's written all goofy for the multi ...

FAA wanted folks not to do it with a CFI on board.

But insurance companies said "oh hell
no" to turning multi-engine commercial candidates loose without a rated pilot on board solo at night.

So then though various revisions over time what we have is a mess.

And the instructor gets to go along and warm a seat for the insurance company in the twin while pretending (s)he isn't there so the student can "act as PIC".

Because you can do the multi first like I did...

Messy messy messy. LOL.
 
midwestpa24 said:
And in my opinion, is one of the oddest certificate requirements ever.
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Private certification does not require solo night takeoffs and landings. Without this regulatory requirement, your commercial pilot could be your Captain on a dark and stormy night, and never have ever made a solo night landing.
 
nosehair said:
Private certification does not require solo night takeoffs and landings. Without this regulatory requirement, your commercial pilot could be your Captain on a dark and stormy night, and never have ever made a solo night landing.
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I meant 10 solo night landings at a towered airport. I can see 10 solo night landings. I can see 10 landings at a towered airport. But that particular combination is funny to me. When I went to get my CSEL I looked through my many years and hours of logbooks and found precisely one solo night landing at a towered airport. I had many night landings, many landings at towered airports, and many solo landings, but only one of the right combination. It wasn't a big deal, just a 45 minute flight to the nearest towered airport, 10 t/o and landings, and 45 minutes home. Just seemed silly at that point.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I meant 10 solo night landings at a towered airport. I can see 10 solo night landings. I can see 10 landings at a towered airport. But that particular combination is funny to me. When I went to get my CSEL I looked through my many years and hours of logbooks and found precisely one solo night landing at a towered airport. I had many night landings, many landings at towered airports, and many solo landings, but only one of the right combination. It wasn't a big deal, just a 45 minute flight to the nearest towered airport, 10 t/o and landings, and 45 minutes home. Just seemed silly at that point.
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A lot of flight experience requirements seem pretty silly.
 
What you should do is go to a small town airport on a dark night thats out of town with very few lights anywhere else. Turn the runway lights on and land. Strange things can happen. The airport goes back and forth from you thinking you are 1000' high and a large runway to you thinking you are 200' high and a small small runway. If ya know what i mean?????? Be ready to bounce.
 
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paflyer said:
A lot of flight experience requirements seem pretty silly.
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They seem silly until you realize how many pilots and flight schools are out there looking to do the absolute bare minimum training/learning to get the certificate. Then many (but not all) of the requirements start to make more sense. :)

In my opinion, the requirement being discussed seems to offer very little value compared to what a student could/would get by just requiring solo night landings instead of requiring those landings to be performed at an airport with an operating control tower. But, it is what it is.
 
coloradobluesky said:
What you should do is go to a small town airport thats out of town with very few lights anywhere else. Turn the runway lights on and land. Strange things can happen. The airport goes back and forth from you thinking you are 1000' high and a large runway to you thinking you are 200' high and a small small runway. If ya know what i mean?????? Be ready to bounce.
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I'm sure you know what you're talking about as the concept explained is correct; however, to expound you can read this: https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/spatiald_visillus.pdf
We learn about this stuff pretty hard in the Army, but that is the FAA version.
 
mondtster said:
They seem silly until you realize how many pilots and flight schools are out there looking to do the absolute bare minimum training/learning to get the certificate. Then many (but not all) of the requirements start to make more sense. :)

In my opinion, the requirement being discussed seems to offer very little value compared to what a student could/would get by just requiring solo night landings instead of requiring those landings to be performed at an airport with an operating control tower. But, it is what it is.
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I can certainly see how they make sense from the standpoint of someone who is a up and coming student pilot taking the next step and gaining experience. It is just funny to those of us older experienced pilots that are just getting around to getting the advanced ratings and have to do special flights to make up the requirements we haven't already managed to do. The other one for me was the 2 hr day and 2 hr night dual cross country. I have hundreds of hours of cross country time, including several quite long adventures, but I did not have anything to meet this requirement, so I grabbed an instructor and went out for dinner in a city far away, 2 hrs out during the day, 2 hrs home that night. Not sure what I was supposed to learn from it, but we checked it off.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I can certainly see how they make sense from the standpoint of someone who is a up and coming student pilot taking the next step and gaining experience. It is just funny to those of us older experienced pilots that are just getting around to getting the advanced ratings and have to do special flights to make up the requirements we haven't already managed to do. The other one for me was the 2 hr day and 2 hr night dual cross country. I have hundreds of hours of cross country time, including several quite long adventures, but I did not have anything to meet this requirement, so I grabbed an instructor and went out for dinner in a city far away, 2 hrs out during the day, 2 hrs home that night. Not sure what I was supposed to learn from it, but we checked it off.
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yep, exactly the same story for me, and some "experts" on FAA reqs jumped all over me in a different thread for bringing it up.
 
coloradobluesky said:
What you should do is go to a small town airport on a dark night thats out of town with very few lights anywhere else. Turn the runway lights on and land. Strange things can happen. The airport goes back and forth from you thinking you are 1000' high and a large runway to you thinking you are 200' high and a small small runway. If ya know what i mean?????? Be ready to bounce.
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Funny you should say that. Last night because I had all my "control tower" stuff done, but still needed a few PIC night hours I did exactly what you suggested. I picked a fairly close airport I have never flown to- KDAW (Skyhaven in Rochester, NH)- which is pretty out of the way as much as it can be in the Northeast. It was a clear night but I figured it be safer to shoot an approach in case of some terrain/tower I didnt see so I shot the LPV RNAV 33. Luckily the lights were pretty good there and I saw the runway before I even got the the FAP. I definitely flared a little high but at least no bounce! Good lesson anyways. Made me want to do some more night flying which I don't do much of.
 
midwestpa24 said:
And in my opinion, is one of the oddest certificate requirements ever.
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always thought it made sense, continuous night ops at a towered airport is something a professional pilot should be comfy with, and a area I cold see some hobby pilots not doing too much.

Personally I'd have split he requirement up between ops at a towered and a non towered airport at night, maybe even a non towered field without a IAP
 
midwestpa24 said:
I can certainly see how they make sense from the standpoint of someone who is a up and coming student pilot taking the next step and gaining experience. It is just funny to those of us older experienced pilots that are just getting around to getting the advanced ratings and have to do special flights to make up the requirements we haven't already managed to do.
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I had a blast with the "spin awareness" endorsement when we realized I had hundreds of spins in the logbook but no fancy new "awareness" endorsement in the book for the CFI ride.

CFI called up another who has access to the local club Citabria and we cranked and went toward a practice area at dawn.

He says, "You want me to show you one, or do you want to do the first one?"

"I think I've got it but let me know if my technique sucks for this airplane."

"Okay! Pick an direction and let's do one... we've cleared the area already..."

Spin, recover... and am I'm recovering he's saying from the back seat... "not yet... awww... you could have let that wind up a little! That was fun, let's do another one the other way and let it get going..."

After a three turn the other way he says...

"Okay that's enough spin awareness. Let's go work on your tailwheel landings. Might as well get started on that..."

LOL. Endorsement complete!

Then we went back and played "engine out, tight pattern, full slip once runway is made, to either three point or wheel landing as assigned by the backseater" at the airport. Wheeeee.

My original instructor still to this day won't sign someone off for a Private ride unless they've demonstrated that they can spin and recover an airplane.

I texted him after doing the spin "awareness" endorsement flight, told him he'd laugh, and that I had to go fly the Citabria to become "aware" of spins.

He sends back, "Hey! There was no such endorsement back when we were spinning the hell out of Skyhawks!" Haha.
 
James331 said:
always thought it made sense, continuous night ops at a towered airport is something a professional pilot should be comfy with, and a area I cold see some hobby pilots not doing too much.

Personally I'd have split he requirement up between ops at a towered and a non towered airport at night, maybe even a non towered field without a IAP
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Especially in this area there are plenty of part time fields, Nashua for example is staffed until 9:00PM local. Manchester is 24x7, but that's a rarity. I'd be shocked to see a DPE try to figure out where your 10 landings solo with flight in the traffic pattern at night while the tower was operating are. Being well prepared for the logbook scrub at the oral is good, but be realistic about what's practical to determine.

I'm sure that my 10 landings are in there somewhere, I'm also sure that I can't prove it

I also don't log tower open/closed, flight in pattern or given a straight in/base entry for landings. Maybe I should start before my ATP ride.
 
Don't think the ATP cared about tower stuff, it's been a few years and it was the old ATP, but I don't think that was on the list?
 
mondtster said:
Note that those 10 takeoffs and landings are under the solo/PIC portion of the requirements...
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Since I need that requirement for my commercial, this is of interest to me. What you said seems to be correct to me. The 10 takeoffs and landing are in context with the solo night flight requirement. So it sounds like they specifically want those 10 takeoff and landings at an airport with a control tower while doing night solo. Correct?
 
BrianNC said:
Since I need that requirement for my commercial, this is of interest to me. What you said seems to be correct to me. The 10 takeoffs and landing are in context with the solo night flight requirement. So it sounds like they specifically want those 10 takeoff and landings at an airport with a control tower while doing night solo. Correct?
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Yes, and the tower needs to be open. ;)
 
I knocked out 4 of my night solo tower landings tonight. Living by a sleepy Charlie airport is great. They love it when I come over to do practice since they are usually bored at night. The tower literally thanked me for giving him something to do. And somehow I seem to land better at night. Weird.
 
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