Night Practice Landings

[tehmightypirate]

So, I'm wondering about peoples thoughts on this. With winter upon us (and being up north) I pretty much will be doing all of my flying at night for the next few month. I'm a little rusty on simulated engine out landings, short field landings, and cross-wind landings and want to practice those.

I fly out of KBGR and with it's monstrous runway (I could probably land sideways and rollout onto on a taxiway, lawl) it's stupid easy at night. However, the control tower,traffic, and long runway (way too easy) make it a small pain to do multiple approaches and simulated engine outs. My other option is KOLD (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KOLD) which is usually all but unused during evening in winter but has plenty of good challenges which I'm familiar with. Perhaps too many challenges.

Now, I have no trouble landing at night and I have an up-to-date terrain database in the G1000 but I'm hesitant to be doing non-standard traffic patterns or purposefully line up on a smaller or cross-wind runway at KOLD during the night.

What are you guys thoughts on this risk? Is it worth the small risk for a more challenging approach into a semi-short field. Or should I avoid any risk altogether and wait for a time when I can go during the daylight or just do it at KBGR with it's giant runway and no trees?

My feeling is it's not worth the risk and I should play it safe rather than play it convenient but I'm curious what you guys think.

 

[MAKG1]

If the cross-runway is lit, what's wrong with lining up on it? If the only nonstandard traffic pattern you're doing is a "short approach," why not? Why would any other nonstandard traffic pattern be necessary?

If it's not lit, or if the A/FD or NOTAM says it's closed at night, that's probably not the best idea.

Looking at the link you posted, the shortest runway is 3200 feet, and they are all lit at medium intensity. That's long enough for a stop'n'go in a 172.

I'm just not seeing the issue.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Why is it a pain to do multiple approaches and simulated engine outs at BGR?

I don't recall BGR being particularly busy....especially at night.

 

[tehmightypirate]

If the cross-runway is lit, what's wrong with lining up on it? If the only nonstandard traffic pattern you're doing is a "short approach," why not? Why would any other nonstandard traffic pattern be necessary?

If it's not lit, or if the A/FD or NOTAM says it's closed at night, that's probably not the best idea.

Looking at the link you posted, the shortest runway is 3200 feet, and they are all lit at medium intensity. That's long enough for a stop'n'go in a 172.

I'm just not seeing the issue.

That's why I'm wondering if I'm being too cautious. Keep in mind I'm low time, both total and recent.

As for non-standard I'm talking about simulated engine outs in the pattern followed by circle to land or close in base to final. No runways closed at night that I'm aware of.

Why is it a pain to do multiple approaches and simulated engine outs at BGR?

I don't recall BGR being particularly busy....especially at night.

I suppose not but there really is no challenge for normal or practice short field approaches (unless I severely mentally shorten and narrow the runway) and around when I tend to go out (8 to 9 PM) we get a handful of regional airlines and commercial cargo carriers going. Probably not busy by most airport standards but I try to be kind to the people with the turbines and a place to be. At that point they're usually down to only two controllers in the tower and having to deal with a little pudnucker Cessna doing simulated engine outs probably is a small annoyance to them.

Hence why I usually fly the 10 minutes over to KOLD and out of their way. But, yes, it's not the end of the world and I have every right to be there. I'm wondering if it's just easier and not really a major risk to go elsewhere.

 

[MAKG1]

The only thing I'd hesitate about is unlit obstructions inside or near the pattern. If there is a transmission line 200 feet high under downwind, make sure you're on final before 200 AGL, with some margin. With engine-outs, it's always good to be somewhat high, and then lose the altitude on final somehow.

Check NOTAMs and the A/FD. Trees will be in the A/FD. Cranes and other temporary structures in the NOTAMs.

I would hesitate if the runways is obstructed and there is no vertical guidance (PAPI, VASI, or even an ILS), but I don't think this is the case here. Trees can be hard to see at night, but the point of the vertical guidance is to give you some buffer over that. Below pattern altitude, do not tolerate two reds.

 

[tehmightypirate]

The only thing I'd hesitate about is unlit obstructions inside or near the pattern. If there is a transmission line 200 feet high under downwind, make sure you're on final before 200 AGL, with some margin. With engine-outs, it's always good to be somewhat high, and then lose the altitude on final somehow.

Check NOTAMs and the A/FD. Trees will be in the A/FD. Cranes and other temporary structures in the NOTAMs.

I would hesitate if the runways is obstructed and there is no vertical guidance (PAPI, VASI, or even an ILS), but I don't think this is the case here. Trees can be hard to see at night, but the point of the vertical guidance is to give you some buffer over that. Below pattern altitude, do not tolerate two reds.

From memory: the shorter runway has a VASI on the 22 end (trees on the approach). The longer runway 30 has a PAPI and it's good to have as that's the one over water, some hills, and lots of trees. But unless you're well under the glideslope you're generally 200-300 feet above them on short final (or greater).

And I always check notams even on local VFR flights. "Someone I know" (CMEL) with me riding shotgun almost got burned landing at a small strip (many, many years ago) only to find out later it was NOTAMed closed (for no reasons we could see) but there was some yocals doing drag races in pickup trucks on the strip. Thankfully they stopped when they saw us in the pattern and we landed with no issues. No harm but definitely a foul and that lesson stuck with me.

 

[mcoflyer]

Look...if you don't feel comfortable with it then don't do it.

Everyone has different experience levels and this is where your own judgement comes into play especially with you being low time.

If you're not confident going to another airport and flying at night then either A) Don't do it, or B) Go with a CFI or a more experienced pilot.

 

[rmlewisjr]

At that point they're usually down to only two controllers in the tower and having to deal with a little pudnucker Cessna doing simulated engine outs probably is a small annoyance to them.

Take a tour up to the tower and ask them. Most of the tower folks I've talked to are more than happy to work with you. They are probably looking for something to do and you can make their night go faster.

 

[Morne]

Your caution is admirable. Try gently pushing your envelope to become a better pilot. As advised above, if you're really worried fly with a CFI the first time out.

OLD looks like the perfect place to do engine out and crosswind drills! Solo in a 172 you should have plenty of performance margin.

I tend to prefer flying at night because the air is usually smoother, the cities easier to spot and other air traffic is seen more easily.

 

[tehmightypirate]

Look...if you don't feel comfortable with it then don't do it.

Everyone has different experience levels and this is where your own judgement comes into play especially with you being low time.

If you're not confident going to another airport and flying at night then either A) Don't do it, or B) Go with a CFI or a more experienced pilot.

My thoughts exactly, I'm just curious what other people would do in my situation. I think I'll do what you've suggested, go with a CFI and do it. Best of everything, I get to push my personal envelope, fly safe, and also get some time up with a CFI (which is never a bad thing). I need to get more IFR time anyway so maybe we can do some foggle work as well.

Take a tour up to the tower and ask them. Most of the tower folks I've talked to are more than happy to work with you. They are probably looking for something to do and you can make their night go faster.

Probably true. It's been a long time since I toured the tower, I really should do that and ask them. As for them liking the distraction there's always this one guy who sounds really grumpy during the evening like he has better things to do then bounce this little Cessna around. He sounds like that all the time though, so maybe it's just his way of controlling

Your caution is admirable. Try gently pushing your envelope to become a better pilot. As advised above, if you're really worried fly with a CFI the first time out.

OLD looks like the perfect place to do engine out and crosswind drills! Solo in a 172 you should have plenty of performance margin.

I tend to prefer flying at night because the air is usually smoother, the cities easier to spot and other air traffic is seen more easily.

Thanks, I always try to fly safe and where I'm low time, in-frequent flyer, and usually going from one rental plane to another I know that I'm a statistic waiting to happen so I try to hone my skills as safely as possible. In my mind that's good because the minute I feel more comfortable than I should is the minute I'm becoming complacent. Hence why I'm loving this forum and the ability to discuss decision making processes and see how other pilots handle similar situations.

OLD is a great place for crosswind drills and engine outs. Big enough runways to accommodate poor landings but tight enough that it gets your blood pumping when you pull the throttle back. Very little traffic unless the seaplanes are out and about. About the only problem is you're right under BGR's class C but they are usually happy to give flight following.

Yep, about the only downside to night is sometimes it's too peaceful. (If there is such a thing.) We also have a lot of black holes up here though with all the lakes, trees, and poorly lit roads and towns so black hole approaches are definitely a thing to watch out for. But, yes, I'd not complain of a calm, moon-lit night vs a sunny day.