Night Flying Limitation

[Unregistered]

Would like to clarify the time NIGHT FLYING is considered for the restriction "NOT VALID FOR NIGHT FLYING OR BY COLOR SIGNAL CONTROL" limitation I have on my medical.

When discussing NIGHT FLYING in FAR Part 1 it states:

"Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and
the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the American
Air Almanac, converted to local time."

So if I am planning a flight, and Evening civil twilight is at 8:35PM local time, but sunset is at 8:10PM local time, I need to make sure I am on the ground at 8:35PM.

Either way I need to make sure I am not confused over what I have read in the FAR. Seems like different ways to go about thinking about night flying. Like position lights must be on from SUNSET to SUNRISE, for logging purposes night is the time between SUNSET to SUNRISE, but for currency night is from one hours after sunset.

Someone help me clear this confusion.

Just out of curiosity though, what sort of repercussions would one experience if caught flying at night with the restriction I mentioned above?

Thank you.

 

[gismo]

Would like to clarify the time NIGHT FLYING is considered for the restriction "NOT VALID FOR NIGHT FLYING OR BY COLOR SIGNAL CONTROL" limitation I have on my medical.

When discussing NIGHT FLYING in FAR Part 1 it states:

"Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and
the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the American
Air Almanac, converted to local time."

So if I am planning a flight, and Evening civil twilight is at 8:35PM local time, but sunset is at 8:10PM local time, I need to make sure I am on the ground at 8:35PM.

Either way I need to make sure I am not confused over what I have read in the FAR. Seems like different ways to go about thinking about night flying. Like position lights must be on from SUNSET to SUNRISE, for logging purposes night is the time between SUNSET to SUNRISE, but for currency night is from one hours after sunset.

Someone help me clear this confusion.

Just out of curiosity though, what sort of repercussions would one experience if caught flying at night with the restriction I mentioned above?

Thank you.

I'm not an expert on such matters, but it seems pretty clear to me. The restriction specifies "Night Flying" and that always means twilight to twilight not sunrise to sunset. IOW I think you're OK if you land between sunset and end of civil twilight. This actually makes sense from a practical perspective as well given that it's nowhere near dark right after sunset.

OTOH if there's a valid reason for you not to fly in the dark, you shouldn't push it to the limits either. Five minutes before the published end of civil twilight under a thick overcast can be mighty dark.

 

[Greebo]

Just out of curiosity though, what sort of repercussions would one experience if caught flying at night with the restriction I mentioned above?

Well, at a minimum, a warning. At maximum, revocation of licence.

Generally speaking, it would be wise to plan never to get anywhere near violating that restriction. It would be very difficult to prove that you just HAD to fly that extra hour into darkness...

 

[bbchien]

Would like to clarify the time NIGHT FLYING is considered for the restriction "NOT VALID FOR NIGHT FLYING OR BY COLOR SIGNAL CONTROL" limitation I have on my medical..

The end of civil twilight in the PM and the beginning of civil twilight in the AM.

Just out of curiosity though, what sort of repercussions would one experience if caught flying at night with the restriction I mentioned above?

Thank you.

The authority/charter of the FAA is to promote and regulate. In a capital driven society this means "make insureable". As long as you fly within the restriction, you are easily insured. However, if you prang it in the dark, your policy will not payoff as you are not in compliance with the applicable FAR clause of your policy. In short you are opening you _ss up to some bigtime losses. You won't even have a defense- it takes about $100,000 to mount a brief definitive defense.

Now, if you have no assets, no income and the devil-may-care, and you go bare, then you don't care. But just stay out of my Air. Sh_t unfortunately happens faster than you can say "unfair!".

Next question: can something be done about your restriction? How were you tested when you got the restriction? There may be another way.....

ATP AME

 

[Unregistered]

Next question: can something be done about your restriction? How were you tested when you got the restriction? There may be another way.....

ATP AME

Totally agree with you. I have too much to lose to chance it. So rest assured, even though I know I can do it, I will not be seen in the air at night as PIC. Its not something I think I would have done much of anyway even if I was not restricted.

I'll try an alternative in the future. I think my best shot will have to be the light gun test. Tried a lantern test once and did not do well. My issue is with green and white, but on that lantern even the red was challenging to catch. Maybe I was just doubting myself due to nerves. Hopefully at some point I can get a two way radio and get some practice shots from the tower to try and get used to it before I really take the test. I have seen the red light at my home fields tower, but I do not remember being able to decipher the white and green lights. It was a very quick test once as my instructor and I were holding short of an active runway. I see the green and white JUST FINE on the airspeed indicator of my Cessna but the my problem is with those white and green lights. I have seen the green and white lights difference on taxiways and runways. My guess is those are a different shade of green.

I don't know the name of the test I was given at the AME. But it was a book, with color circles and I assume you were supposed to see numbers, letters, etc. I saw maybe the first one correctly and the rest were just circles that did not resemble much.

I do not plan on flying for a living, only for fun, and for transportation. I do hate to have the limitation though. It does not bother me much, however from time to time it will nag at me in the back of my head, "hey, you can't fly at night!" But there are worse things in life.

Thank you for clearing any doubt on when the restriction expects night to be in effect. I really just want to make sure I'm within my allowance.

 

[gismo]

I don't know the name of the test I was given at the AME. But it was a book, with color circles and I assume you were supposed to see numbers, letters, etc. I saw maybe the first one correctly and the rest were just circles that did not resemble much.

That's the "standard" test (I forget the name), and it's way more difficult than the light gun test IMO. I have no color deficiencies that I know of (I've done a lot of work with color video displays and can match colors as well as anyone I know) yet seeing those numbers in the patterns of dots is usually a bit of a challenge for me. Part of the problem is that visual acuity and chromatic abberation in your glasses and eyes is a big factor in the "standard" test but it won't mean diddly squat with the light gun. Also I'd consider the ambient light conditions when practicing and taking the light gun test, including adaptation (night vision).

BTW if you wanted to "cheat" the light gun test, I'd bet that tinted contacts with two different passbands would make it easy for anyone with a color vision problem to pass.

 

[bbchien]

That's the "standard" test (I forget the name) .... Part of the problem is that visual acuity and chromatic abberation in your glasses and eyes is a big factor in the "standard" test but it won't mean diddly squat with the light gun. Also I'd consider the ambient light conditions when practicing and taking the light gun test, including adaptation (night vision).

The light gun test is the way to go, however DO NOT DO SO until you have determined, CFI by your side, that you WILL PASS. You only get to do this twice for the record.

The "standard" test is the ishihara color plates. BTW I have a waiver for demonstrated performance based on the light guns, (the green is a smudgy white)....but on a good day I can do the dots and have a current second class based on that.

ATP AME

 

[glpilot]

BTW if you wanted to "cheat" the light gun test, I'd bet that tinted contacts with two different passbands would make it easy for anyone with a color vision problem to pass.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, that has caught my interest, never hard details of such a thing, maybe I... no, never mind, I won't cheat. Maybe I will, no.. well, maybe... ahh no... LOL...

"Search your feelings, Father, you can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate."

BTW I have a waiver for demonstrated performance based on the light guns, (the green is a smudgy white)....but on a good day I can do the dots and have a current second class based on that.
ATP AME

If one gets the waiver via light gun test are you saying there is some issue in obtaining a second class medical with it Bruce? Just want to clarify on your statement.