Night currency, CFI and insurance

DesertNomad

DesertNomad

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DesertNomad
I have not flown at night in about 7 years and want to get night current so I am planning to go up with a CFI (who is night current if it matters). I will be in the airplane I own and in the left seat, and will be sole manipulator of the controls.

My open pilot clause requires 5 hours in make and model - I am trying to determine from the company how strictly that is interpreted... does a PA28-235 count, or only a PA28-236, or does any PA28 time count?

If acting as a CFI, he is not a passenger but probably has to be acting PIC?

He has a couple hours in my airplane during the day but I'm trying to decide if he needs to provide 5 hours of instruction in my plane before he can act as PIC for night flights where I am not current.

This is obviously more of an insurance matter than it is an FAA regulation issue.

Such confusion...
 
A CFI is *not* a passenger if they are giving instruction. So if you are qualified to be the PIC otherwise (flight review, medical, etc.), you can act as PIC for the flight.

If you're not qualified to be PIC (for instance if you are out of flight review), then the CFI has to act as PIC, and (interestingly) you are not his/her passenger either.

That's my understanding, anyway... as weird as it seems...
 
I am not night current, so I can't act as PIC at night with passengers... though of course I can if solo.

So does the CFI have to act as PIC to avoid being classified as a passenger? If so, he needs 5 hours in a PA28-236. My old insurance company (USAIG) accepted any PA28 time as qualifying, but the current company (Global) wants it specifically in a PA28-236.

Or maybe if he is giving instruction (even if not PIC), he is not a passenger.

Clear as mud.
 
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I wouldn't worry about it. I haven't checked lately but there aren't any FAR requirements for a CFI to be present for night currency, and the open pilot warranty/your policy) doesn't mention night ops(assuming), so as far as they are concerned, you are PIC of your own plane, just as if you were flying solo.

I'm in claims and I've never heard of this being an issue.
 
Geosync said:
I wouldn't worry about it. I haven't checked lately but there aren't any FAR requirements for a CFI to be present for night currency, and the open pilot warranty/your policy) doesn't mention night ops(assuming), so as far as they are concerned, you are PIC of your own plane, just as if you were flying solo.

I'm in claims and I've never heard of this being an issue.
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Oh I see what you mean. Well, I still think when the chips are down, there won't be any declination of coverage if something were to happen. You can argue that you were safer than flying by yourself(yes, it is possible, we do listen to logic). But, you should ask your broker, who in turn would ask your Global underwriter. They should be able to get a waiver from them if need be. The broker works for you, so this is the time to use them.
 
DesertNomad said:
I am not night current, so I can't act as PIC at night with passengers... though of course I can if solo.
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you won’t have a passenger...he’s a CFI.

So does the CFI have to act as PIC to avoid being classified as a passenger? If so, he needs 5 hours in a PA28-236. My old insurance company (USAIG) accepted any PA28 time as qualifying, but the current company (Global) wants it specifically in a PA28-236.
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You can act as PIC unless you’re out of a flight review.

Or maybe if he is giving instruction (even if not PIC), he is not a passenger.
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this, without the “maybe”.
 
So if I take a CFI at night when I am not night-current and it is as if he wasn't there at all?

I have a current flight review, medical, etc, just have not flown at night in a long time.

I can be PIC in all regards and he just sits there?
 
DesertNomad said:
So if I take a CFI at night when I am not night-current and it is as if he wasn't there at all?

I have a current flight review, medical, etc, just have not flown at night in a long time.

I can be PIC in all regards and he just sits there?
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Pretty much, for moral support
 
It's dual given. Then there is no ambiguity if "something happens". You log as PIC.
 
Well, yes, it would be dual since I am paying him and he is providing instruction, just not (hopefully) touching the controls.
 
DesertNomad said:
So if I take a CFI at night when I am not night-current and it is as if he wasn't there at all?
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No, he's there. He's a required crewmember on an instructional flight. Required crewmembers are not passengers. If there are no passengers onboard, there is no requirement for the PIC to be night current.
 
DesertNomad said:
Or maybe if he is giving instruction (even if not PIC), he is not a passenger.

Clear as mud.
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No mud involved. For yet another post saying so...

Neither a CFI nor a trainee is a "passenger" during an instructional flight for 61.57(a) and (b) purposes

There are two Chief Counsel letters on it. Here's the main one.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2006/kortokrax - (2006) legal interpretation.pdf

BTW, that said, I would check with my insurance company anyway. If he's a regular might even get him approved (not necessarily "insured.")
 
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Larry in TN said:
No, he's there. He's a required crewmember on an instructional flight. Required crewmembers are not passengers. If there are no passengers onboard, there is no requirement for the PIC to be night current.
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Since you haven't done any night flying in 7 years its great you are going up with a CFI. Really good idea. But as you pointed out, you don't actually need a CFI to become night current- night currency is required to carry passengers, so you could do it solo if you wanted, therefore the CFI is not a required crew member (but again, good idea to have them there). You both can log PIC time. When I instruct with a certificated pilot who is rated for the airplane, then they also act as PIC. Unless of course something happens and I say "My controls!" and then, well, I am acting as PIC then. :rolleyes:
 
Larry in TN said:
No, he's there. He's a required crewmember on an instructional flight. Required crewmembers are not passengers. If there are no passengers onboard, there is no requirement for the PIC to be night current.
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CFIs are not required crewmembers just because it's an instructional flight. That's why a CFI needs no medical (not even BasicMed) unless "acting as the pilot in command or as a required flightcrew member."

Don't try to make regulatory sense of those two Chief Counsel opinions about not needing night currency on an instructional flight other than as a policy decision that neither instructor nor trainee is considered to be a passenger. You won't.
 
My only concern is that my CFI does not meet my open pilot clause because he doesn't have 5 hours in a Dakota, though he does have other PA28 time. Therefore I need to be able to act as PIC and be sole manipulator while still having my CFI in the right seat because I have not been up at night in so long.
 
DesertNomad said:
I have not flown at night in about 7 years and want to get night current so I am planning to go up with a CFI (who is night current if it matters). I will be in the airplane I own and in the left seat, and will be sole manipulator of the controls.

My open pilot clause requires 5 hours in make and model - I am trying to determine from the company how strictly that is interpreted... does a PA28-235 count, or only a PA28-236, or does any PA28 time count?

If acting as a CFI, he is not a passenger but probably has to be acting PIC?

He has a couple hours in my airplane during the day but I'm trying to decide if he needs to provide 5 hours of instruction in my plane before he can act as PIC for night flights where I am not current.

This is obviously more of an insurance matter than it is an FAA regulation issue.

Such confusion...
Click to expand...

An Open Pilot Warranty is the minimum qualifications required to be PIC of the aircraft without being a named pilot. The pilot must meet every qualification of the open pilot warranty to fly the aircraft. If your plane is a PA28-235, the pilot under the open pilot clause must have the requirements for that aircraft. This applies to people you loan your aircraft to or employ.

Without reading your policy, I would expect your policy to cover any damage resulting from training to become current with a CFI or training to gain another rating or certificate no questions asked. You are still PIC unless you are not instrument rated in IMC or flying without a flight review.

Where you may run into problems is the insurance letting the CFI off the hook for the damage under the open pilot language. The insurance might subrogate against the CFI after paying your claim under the language excluding persons providing services. The amount of make/model time would not be the issue.

This is why CFIs carry their own insurance.
 
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DesertNomad said:
My only concern is that my CFI does not meet my open pilot clause because he doesn't have 5 hours in a Dakota, though he does have other PA28 time. Therefore I need to be able to act as PIC and be sole manipulator while still having my CFI in the right seat because I have not been up at night in so long.
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So long as the only thing preventing you from acting as PIC on the flight is passenger currency, there's no problem with you acting as PIC on an instructional flight with only a CFI on board.

But the easiest way to resolve concerns with your insurer over the 235 vs 236 issue is to ask your insurer and get at least an email "OK" response. If the CFI is going to be a regular, there are normally not too many issues with adding them as an "approved" or "named" pilot to the policy. The point with adding them is that the open pilot warranty applies to any old pilot without regard to other qualifications. In both cases approval and listing - they look at the individual pilot's qualifications and may require far less. Examples to illustrate both:

I was asked to fly a F33 Bonanza for a club purchasing it. A one-shot deal, so no naming on the policy. Email sent to the broker explaining I had zero F33 time but over 60 hours C33 (Debonair) time. Approved. They though it was similar enough given my other qualifications.

A friend wanted to add me as an approved pilot on his Mooney Ovation. Open pilot warranty was 25 hours time in type. I had zero. I had other Mooney time but I will tell you the Ovation is a different beast. Light years more different from a C or even a J than the shape of the wing difference between a PA 235 and a 236. Approved so long as I got 2 hours dual, based on other qualifications I thought were relevant and listed on the application.
 
JoeCFI said:
so you could do it solo if you wanted, therefore the CFI is not a required crew member
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Why? If the CFI is providing dual flight instruction then he is not a passenger. This was confirmed by the FAA Assistant Chief Counsel in the link posted above. Of course, the CFI should actually be giving flight instruction, not just riding along, and the instructional flight should be properly logged and endorsed as such.

You both can log PIC time. When I instruct with a certificated pilot who is rated for the airplane, then they also act as PIC. Unless of course something happens and I say "My controls!" and then, well, I am acting as PIC then. :rolleyes:
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You are confusing ACTING and LOGGING of PIC. Only one pilot is acting as PIC for the flight. It can be the CFI or it can be the properly rated pilot who is receiving instruction. A change in the manipulator of the controls doesn't change who is acting as PIC, it only (may) change who can log PIC.

midlifeflyer said:
CFIs are not required crewmembers just because it's an instructional flight. That's why a CFI needs no medical (not even BasicMed) unless "acting as the pilot in command or as a required flightcrew member."
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The "as a required flight crewmember" in your quote is referring to instruction in aircraft that require more than one pilot. I have received instruction in such airplanes (DC8, DC9, & J32) where I was not only the pilot receiving flight instruction but also a required crewmember and the instructor was both the instructor giving instruction and a required crewmember. In those cases, the instructor must have a valid medical because he is performing the duties of one of the crewmembers required by the aircraft's type certification.

In this case, the airplane used requires only one pilot. The non-night current pilot can act as PIC because no passengers are carried. The CFI can give dual instruction and is not a passenger.
 
Larry in TN said:
Why? If the CFI is providing dual flight instruction then he is not a passenger.
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The only required crewmember is the PIC. If the CFI is not acting PIC, he or she is not a required crewmember. Being considered "not a passenger" is not sufficient to be considered required crew.
 
dmspilot said:
The only required crewmember is the PIC. If the CFI is not acting PIC, he or she is not a required crewmember. Being considered "not a passenger" is not sufficient to be considered required crew.
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Read the FAA Assistant Chief Counsel opinion linked above.
 
Larry in TN said:
The "as a required flight crewmember" in your quote is referring to instruction in aircraft that require more than one pilot.
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...or in an operation which requires more than one pilot, such as acting as a safety pilot.

but that's the reason I said "just because."
 
Larry in TN said:
Because my position is directly supported by the opinion.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say.
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You asked why the CFI is not a required crewmember, so I answered. It's not addressed in the letter.
 
I don't understand the points that either of you are making so let's try this another way.

Do either of you disagree that the OP is legal for the proposed flight with him and a CFI? That's all I've been talking about.
 
Larry in TN said:
I don't understand the points that either of you are making so let's try this another way.

Do either of you disagree that the OP is legal for the proposed flight with him and a CFI? That's all I've been talking about.
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Of course not. Only with your characterization of the CFI as a "required crewmember" as the reason. If you stopped at your post #4 no one who knows the rules would disagree with you.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Of course not. Only with your characterization of the CFI as a "required crewmember" as the reason. If you stopped at your post #4 no one who knows the rules would disagree with you.
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OK. That's fine.

"Required crewmember" isn't specifically defined, that I can find, so no point arguing about its usage.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I'd say its FAA usage through the years is pretty consistent as "required by regulation" but ok.
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It can be required by regulation, type certificate, OpSpecs, or FRMS. Maybe more.

The CFI is required by regulation on an instructional flight but we can call the CFI a "crewmember", without adding "required", if that avoids confusion.
 
Larry in TN said:
Why? If the CFI is providing dual flight instruction then he is not a passenger. This was confirmed by the FAA Assistant Chief Counsel in the link posted above. Of course, the CFI should actually be giving flight instruction, not just riding along, and the instructional flight should be properly logged and endorsed as such.
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OK, so here was my logic as to why I said the CFI is not a required crew member in this case: since the pilot can legally fly solo at night (and for arguments sake, this assumes all the other requirements to act as PIC are met) to become night current, a CFI is not required, hence not a required crewmember. Unlike say when doing instrument approaches under the hood, then a safety pilot (CFI or not) is a required crewmember. That is the distinction I was making. The fact that this person recognizes that after 7 years since his last night flight, that attempting to get night current without a CFI present was unadvisable, is laudable.

Larry in TN said:
You are confusing ACTING and LOGGING of PIC. Only one pilot is acting as PIC for the flight. It can be the CFI or it can be the properly rated pilot who is receiving instruction. A change in the manipulator of the controls doesn't change who is acting as PIC, it only (may) change who can log PIC.
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Geez, I think I have a pretty good handle on the difference. What I wrote was that both can log PIC time, and then I specifically said the person I am flying with usually also is acting as PIC and all that that implies. Not sure how that implies I don't know the difference. Thought it was pretty clear. I then did go on to make a mistake of trying make a joke about having to take control of the plane and then acting as PIC, but clearly that was a poor excuse for a joke that landed on its nosewheel. I'll refrain from attempting humor from here on out as clearly I am bad at it.
 
JoeCFI said:
What I wrote was that both can log PIC time, and then I specifically said the person I am flying with usually also is acting as PIC and all that that implies.
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I read it as you saying that two pilots are acting as PIC at the same time.
 
Larry in TN said:
It can be required by regulation, type certificate, OpSpecs, or FRMS. Maybe more.

The CFI is required by regulation on an instructional flight but we can call the CFI a "crewmember", without adding "required", if that avoids confusion.
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I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the FAA use of the term.
 
Larry in TN said:
I read it as you saying that two pilots are acting as PIC at the same time.
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Roger that. I try to write with some degree of clarity, but fall short sometimes. Part of being an instructor is understanding that it is the responsibility of the sender of the message, and not the receiver, to ensure the message is being properly understood.
 
It all worked out - I am night current again... at least from a legal perspective. My first night landing in 7 years was one of my best landings ever... the struts just slowly compressed. That's hard to do without someone in the back seat.
 
I can't understand why you'd be worried about insuring a night instructional flight. I'm planning to do one of those tonight myself. No CFI, no way. I can't take passengers until I'm either immune to COVID or the weather warms. Mask fogs my glasses in the cold. No getting past it.
 
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