"Night" cross country

[midlifeflyer]

This question came up in another forum and I didn't have a good answer.

Do the required night cross country training flights (private or commercial) need to be done at night from takeoff to landing, or is it simple a flight in which 100 NM of night flight take place?

For clarity, here's the scenario. The student and CFI do a cross country. To keep it simple, it's an out and back from KAAA to KBBB, which is 70 NM away from KAAA.

The CFI and student take off before night. Halfway to KBBB, it becomes night. They land at KBBB, turn around and head home. The net result is 105 NM that was done at night.

But does it count? If the entire training flight, from takeoff to landing, needs to be done at night, then only the trip back would count. If, on the other hand, all that is required is that it be a cross country flight during which 100 NM is traveled at night, then at 1/2 of the trip outbound would also count to satisfying the requirement.

Personally, I can see it go either way, but is anyone aware of an FAA position on this, whether "official" or not.

 

[EdFred]

A round trip from KAAA to KBBB would be 834nm and would more than satisfy any requirements.

The answer is NO.

Especially since it says:

(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

 

[gprellwitz]

A round trip from KAAA to KBBB would be 834nm and would more than satisfy any requirements.

That's what being a newly-minted CFI will do for you!

I'd say that if it's taking you two hours to fly that 105NM, than maybe you SHOULD count it, just because of the punishment factor!

One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

But since you need at least 2 hours to be at night, I think it's safest to go with EdFred's answer.

 

[TMetzinger]

Cross country time for ratings (other than the ATP) still requires landing at more than one airport, as far as I know.

 

[midlifeflyer]

My mistake. Scratch the commercial. I forgot that that one was a 100 NM straight-line distance flight one. Stick with the private qualifying night dual cross country.

Same question.

 

[poadeleted20]

Do the required night cross country training flights (private or commercial) need to be done at night from takeoff to landing,

Yes. But it need only be the true "night" definition, i.e., between evening civil twilight and morning civil twilight, not the 61.57 passenger carrying "one hour after sunset to one hour before sunrise" rule.

or is it simple a flight in which 100 NM of night flight take place?

Since cross-country flights for Private and Commercial require a landing at least 50 nm from the original point of departure, out and back without a landing won't cut it. However, the requirement is for a "night flight," and I do believe a flight includes a takeoff and a landing, although it is not defined in 14 CFR 1.1 or 61.1.

For clarity, here's the scenario. The student and CFI do a cross country. To keep it simple, it's an out and back from KAAA to KBBB, which is 70 NM away from KAAA.

The CFI and student take off before night. Halfway to KBBB, it becomes night. They land at KBBB, turn around and head home. The net result is 105 NM that was done at night.

But does it count?

As what? It would certainly count as dual XC to meet the requirement for three hours of dual cross-country in 14 CFR 61.109(a)(1), since it was a training flight that included a landing more than 50nm from the original point of departure.

If the entire training flight, from takeoff to landing, needs to be done at night, then only the trip back would count.

That night flight was not over 100nm total distance, so it does not count for 14 CFR 61.109(a)(2)(i).

If, on the other hand, all that is required is that it be a cross country flight during which 100 NM is traveled at night, then at 1/2 of the trip outbound would also count to satisfying the requirement.

The night flight training requirement is for "One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance." I think that's pretty clear -- a night takeoff, a night flight covering over 100 nm, a landing at a point over 50nm from the original point of departure (else, per 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B ), it is not "cross-country" for PPL requirments), and a night landing.

Personally, I can see it go either way, but is anyone aware of an FAA position on this, whether "official" or not.

I do not see that, but I have never seen the question answered by the FAA.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I really =tried= to add a scenario so I wouldn't confuse Ron, but I guess I was unsuccessful:

For clarity, here's the scenario. The student and CFI do a cross country. To keep it simple, it's an out and back from KAAA to KBBB, which is 70 NM away from KAAA.

The CFI and student take off before night. Halfway to KBBB, it becomes night. They land at KBBB, turn around and head home. The net result is 105 NM that was done at night.

Ron:

Since cross-country flights for Private and Commercial require a landing at least 50 nm from the original point of departure, out and back without a landing won't cut it

The question deals with qualification of the night dual cross country, and Ron asks "count as what?"

The question is really simple. Does the =night portion= of a leg that starts during the day count toward the night cross country requirement or does all of the leg need to have been done at night?

I'll try another hypothetical to try to make it even simpller:

Using EdFred's reply,

A round trip from KAAA to KBBB would be 834nm and would more than satisfy any requirements.

You and your CFI fly from KAAA to KBBB one way (417 NM), non-stop. The flight takes 4 hours. It is "day" when you depart from KAAA. It becomes "night" (no, Ron, we're not talking about landing currency) 1/2 hour into the flight (that means 3.5 hours of the flight were done at night.

Does it qualify for the private pilot night dual cross country requirement?

BTW, I'm looking for guidance based on FAA "policy statements" or even anecdotes. I can read the regulation fairly well, have my own opinion of what it means, and am not really looking for someone else's personal opinion, whether it agrees with mine or not.

 

[poadeleted20]

To my knowledge, there are no FAA policy statements, but given the FAA's concerns in the 61.57 night currency requirements about takeoffs as well as landings, I truly believe that if asked, they would say that unless both the takeoff at the beginning and landing at the end occurred at night, they would not count the flight (or any portion thereof) towards the 14 CFR 61.109(a)(2)(i) requirement. Since the only part of the flight that occurred between a night takeoff and a night landing was less than 100nm, I believe AFS-800 would say the scenario flight wouldn't fill that requirement. But if you really gotta know, the only currently official means to find out is to ask your local FSDO, and then let them ask the RC and/or AFS-800.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks, Ron. That's what I was looking for - either the existence or lack of a policy statement of any kind.

That the qualifying flight needs to include a night takeoff and landing was my take also, although not for the 61.57 reason you mention. I just thought that based on the definition of "flight time" a "night flight" needed to have a night takeoff and landing. Or somehting like that.

I saw the other side because arguably, the requirement is about night =cross country= tasks rather than night takeoff and landing tasks (which is dealt with in a separate requirement). Hard to argue that the 3.5 hour, >300 NM flight in the second scenario wouldn't satisfy the cross country training requirement.

The issue came up in the context of a CFI who did a flight similar to the first scenario and the DPE who did the student's practical test rejected it. They ended up doing another night dual but it left me curious about whether there was anything to clarify one way or another.

Guess not.

 

[Anders]

Hi guys,

I just recently moved to CA from Sweden. I have an EASA CPL ME/IR, and am in the process of getting the FAA equivalent. I have the IR done, but looking through the requirements for the CPL, I am bumping into some hurdles. Namely the 100 nm night X-C. During my training in Sweden I did a flight from ESSP-(224 nm)-EKYT-(149 nm)-ESMS-(206 nm)-ESSP, whereof the last leg of 206 nm was logged as night time, but only 1:40. Reviewing and being a bit “creative” with the sunset time, I might be able to squeeze in an additional 20 minutes at the end of the previous leg. However will it constitute “one flight” as stated in the regulations, seeing as how I did land at ESMS? Is it still considered “one flight” even if it had multiple legs? And can I log and add the last the last 20 minutes of the leg, in order to meet the requirement, as night time, even if the first part was day time?

Cheers
-Anders

 

[poadeleted20]

I just recently moved to CA from Sweden. I have an EASA CPL ME/IR, and am in the process of getting the FAA equivalent. I have the IR done, but looking through the requirements for the CPL, I am bumping into some hurdles. Namely the 100 nm night X-C. During my training in Sweden I did a flight from ESSP-(224 nm)-EKYT-(149 nm)-ESMS-(206 nm)-ESSP, whereof the last leg of 206 nm was logged as night time, but only 1:40. Reviewing and being a bit “creative” with the sunset time, I might be able to squeeze in an additional 20 minutes at the end of the previous leg. However will it constitute “one flight” as stated in the regulations, seeing as how I did land at ESMS? Is it still considered “one flight” even if it had multiple legs? And can I log and add the last the last 20 minutes of the leg, in order to meet the requirement, as night time, even if the first part was day time?

I'm wondering what you mean by "being a bit 'creative' with the sunset time". First, "night" for this purpose starts not at sunset, but at the end of evening civil twilight (typically about half an hour after sunset, but it varies, especially in the northern latitudes like Sweden). Second, the time of the end of evening civil twilight at any particular location on any particular date is something which can be determined to the minute, so if you took off at any particular time, it's a matter of record whether you took off before or after the end of evening civil twilight, and the FAA is absolute death on anyone caught fudging records for the purpose of qualifying for a pilot certificate or rating.

That said, if you made a 3-leg dual XC flight, and takeoff on the third leg was after the end of evening civil twilight, and that third leg was over two hours and the distance over 100 nm straight line from takeoff point to landing point, then you can use that third leg to meet the requirement of 14 CFR 61.129(a)(3)(iv). Based on your post, the 100nm requirement seems to be met (ESMS-ESSP being 206nm), but if that leg was only 1:40, then the 2-hour requirement is not. Further, the FAA is not going to be very happy if you alter the entry after the instructor who gave you the training signed the entry unless you get that instructor to countersign the alteration of the entry.

All things considered, at this point, I think it would be prudent to make a training flight with an instructor that really does meet the regulatory requirement rather than trying to alter a prior entry to make it look like you did something you did not actually do.

 

[Anders]

Hi Cap'n Ron, and thanks for the response. It’s not actually about altering any entry, but rather a matter of interpretation. The definition of night by the Swedish CAA is when a prominent unlit object is no longer clearly visible at a distance of 8 km. So by that standard there is a possibility that by the FAA definition it was actually night before I started logging night time, hence the reason for it not being recorded. The creative part is more along the lines of at which point one decides to use for sunset location, because as you say, that time can vary quite a bit in a relatively short distance at those latitudes. In this particular case the sunset was 1626Z at EKYT, 1617Z at ESMS, and 1556Z at ESSP. The leg from EKYT to ESMS started at 1550Z and ended at 1655Z. So depending on which location one “chooses” for the sunset time, and going by a half hour after that (I was under the impression that it was one whole hour), if I were to use ESSP as the location, I could get in the remaining 20 minutes of time required. It wouldn’t be an actual log entry, but seeing as how my log anyway has to be interpreted by the examiner, as it doesn’t appear the same way the FAA versions do, I would then be able to explain the situation. So the question is really whether or not the examiner would accept that as a valid requirement fulfillment. I would by no account go so far as to alter my log in any way.

That being said it’s still not clear to me, was the above to be accepted, if I can count an additional 20 minutes from the previous leg toward the total 2 hours of the requirement, or if those 2 hours have to be continuous off block time. Basically what I’m asking is, if I have to do a new XC specifically for this purpose, can I fly for 1 hour to an airport 100 nm away, land, and then fly back, or do I have to fly for 2 hours and then land at an airport 100 nm away?

Oh, and an additional question, it states that the flight needs to be in “VFR conditions”, my interpretation of that is, that I can do the flight IFR as long as I’m in VMC. Is that completely off?

Cheers

 

[MikeELP]

.. so if you took off at any particular time, it's a matter of record whether you took off before or after the end of evening civil twilight, and the FAA is absolute death on anyone caught fudging records for the purpose of qualifying for a pilot certificate or rating.

Unless at a towered airport, how so? I'm certainly not condoning any false logbook entries.

You're once again looking for a boogie man under the bed that isn't there.

 

[mtuomi]

Hejsan Anders och välkommen till PoA!

The "VFR conditions" is slightly ambiguous, because you can legally (and quite easily) be IMC flying VFR at night.
I would read that as requiring the flight to be flown under visual flight rules, so no IFR even if you are VMC.

The European and FAA night definitions are different, and I believe in Europe it is changing now with EASA, getting rid of the old 8km rule.

I would think doing a fully qualifying night XC would be easier than trying to explain to a DPE how you interpreted the regulations.
Flying GA in the US is dirt cheap, go enjoy it

 

[fiveoboy01]

I really =tried= to add a scenario so I wouldn't confuse Ron, but I guess I was unsuccessful:


Ron:

The question deals with qualification of the night dual cross country, and Ron asks "count as what?"

The question is really simple. Does the =night portion= of a leg that starts during the day count toward the night cross country requirement or does all of the leg need to have been done at night?

I'll try another hypothetical to try to make it even simpller:

Using EdFred's reply,

You and your CFI fly from KAAA to KBBB one way (417 NM), non-stop. The flight takes 4 hours. It is "day" when you depart from KAAA. It becomes "night" (no, Ron, we're not talking about landing currency) 1/2 hour into the flight (that means 3.5 hours of the flight were done at night.

Does it qualify for the private pilot night dual cross country requirement?

BTW, I'm looking for guidance based on FAA "policy statements" or even anecdotes. I can read the regulation fairly well, have my own opinion of what it means, and am not really looking for someone else's personal opinion, whether it agrees with mine or not.

If it makes you feel better, I understood what you were asking:wink2:

 

[Anders]

Hej dera, och tack så mycket.

Yes, I suppose you’re right, that’s what I will likely do, if for no other reason than to be on the safe side. Though with the current exchange rate, a 172 G1000 at $180 an hour is only marginally cheaper than Sweden. But yeah, I’m kind of looking forward to it.

 

[BarryCooper]

For my night XC, we left in daylight and flew for an hour. Landed, went to a steakhouse and had supper. Returned after dark, took off for the final two legs, and only counted the two "night legs" as night XC.

 

[poadeleted20]

Hi Cap'n Ron, and thanks for the response. It’s not actually about altering any entry, but rather a matter of interpretation. The definition of night by the Swedish CAA is when a prominent unlit object is no longer clearly visible at a distance of 8 km. So by that standard there is a possibility that by the FAA definition it was actually night before I started logging night time, hence the reason for it not being recorded. The creative part is more along the lines of at which point one decides to use for sunset location, because as you say, that time can vary quite a bit in a relatively short distance at those latitudes. In this particular case the sunset was 1626Z at EKYT, 1617Z at ESMS, and 1556Z at ESSP. The leg from EKYT to ESMS started at 1550Z and ended at 1655Z. So depending on which location one “chooses” for the sunset time, and going by a half hour after that (I was under the impression that it was one whole hour), if I were to use ESSP as the location, I could get in the remaining 20 minutes of time required. It wouldn’t be an actual log entry, but seeing as how my log anyway has to be interpreted by the examiner, as it doesn’t appear the same way the FAA versions do, I would then be able to explain the situation. So the question is really whether or not the examiner would accept that as a valid requirement fulfillment. I would by no account go so far as to alter my log in any way.

That being said it’s still not clear to me, was the above to be accepted, if I can count an additional 20 minutes from the previous leg toward the total 2 hours of the requirement, or if those 2 hours have to be continuous off block time. Basically what I’m asking is, if I have to do a new XC specifically for this purpose, can I fly for 1 hour to an airport 100 nm away, land, and then fly back, or do I have to fly for 2 hours and then land at an airport 100 nm away?

Oh, and an additional question, it states that the flight needs to be in “VFR conditions”, my interpretation of that is, that I can do the flight IFR as long as I’m in VMC. Is that completely off?

Cheers

For FAA purposes regarding 14 CFR 61.129(a)(3)(iv):

• Sunset doesn't matter; end of evening civil twilight does.
• Swedish rules don't matter; the FAA rules do.

Also, if you're seeing something about "VFR conditions", you're looking at an outdated set of FAA regulations. This is the current wording:

(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

Personally, I don't see the point in the air at which the sun sets as being "the original point of departure", but I've been wrong before.