Next Aircraft

Riviera Air

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Messages
2
Display Name

Display name:
Tiger Driver
Well I am looking to move up to a new aircraft and wanted to get opinions (yes I asked for it). I have about 1000 hours in various types and have owed a F33a and a Grumman Tiger. Looking for the next aircraft. I have several I have pondered but wanted people to weigh in on, cost to operate, annual, maintenance, per hour fuel costs over acquisition cost. Mission is work and pleasure and over mountains 150NM hops. Will have one partner. Options I am looking at:

Newer aircraft higher acquisition cost more reliability? Older less acquisition cost higher maintenance? I like reliability so any aircraft would have to have upgrades built in price.

Commander 600 series twin engine 1960's turbo normalized
Piper Malibu
Beechcraft with turbo normalized engine either B36 or A36
Cessna 400
Cirrus Turbo
Cessna T210
Cessna P210
Cessna 340A
Aerostar 600/700P

Thanks in advance
Tiger Driver
 
Build a Sportsman 2+2 powered by a turbo diesel.

cost to operate-5-6 gph off road diesel
annual- You're the builder and do the annual
maintenance -fewer engine parts and mostly plastic plane
acquisition cost-about 250-300k
 
Talk about all over the map.

I love the Aerostar 700. I had one, I miss the plane but not the bills.

Tim
 
Build a Sportsman 2+2 powered by a turbo diesel.

cost to operate-5-6 gph off road diesel
annual- You're the builder and do the annual
maintenance -fewer engine parts and mostly plastic plane
acquisition cost-about 250-300k

Look at the planes listed. Way to slow, and does not carry enough. Not sure if luggage or people or ego.

Tim
 
Talk about all over the map.

I love the Aerostar 700. I had one, I miss the plane but not the bills.

Tim

Can I get some more info on your experience. Reliability, annual cost, etc.?
 
Like any forty year old twin, they need a lot of love.
I was pretty active on doing preventive MX. So first annual, replaced all the hoses, many of which were twenty plus years old....
After that, the plane really only had two AOG issues over three hundred hours in two years.
I had one alternator fail, which when it went spiked the the voltage tripping the voltage overlays protecting everything in the plane. However, one relay on the other engine was not installed correctly causing its field to spike and fried that alternator also.
Got home on batteries, I was about ten minutes from home. It took a few weeks for the local mechanics working with some Aerostar experts to fix and track down all the electrical issues and get new alternators and relays installed and balanced.
The other one, I had an oil pressure alarm on approach through some bumps. Shutdown the engine since I was outside the FAF and landed partial flaps (home runway was 5K, so it was easy).
The issue was the sensor wire had come loose in the bumps or via the engine vibrations. Took a day to fix, but this happened Friday evening, no mechanic available at the field until Monday, so I cancelled the weekend trip.

Because I sold the plane before I really got it into a long term stable state; I cannot give a good number. Depending on how you fly (e.g. balls to the wall ROP at 65% plus power hitting 230 KTAS in the low twenties or pushing 75% power at 27/28K and getting about 260 KTAS, or long range and fly in lows 20s at 200 KTAS roughly LOP 45% power) and how you maintain the plane, it will be between 450 and 600 an hour average.

Go here: http://aerostar-forum.com/
To get more current costs/budgets. There are huge variations based on the model, everything from a 290HP naturally aspirated non-pressurized to a 350 turbo charged pressurized with 5.5 PSI differential and gross weight increase and higher service ceiling.

I loved the plane, but after 300 hours, while living in an airpark in TN, I had a meeting 50 miles as the crow flies at another airport. It was a two hour drive by car, but the full fuel take off, max climb over a mountain ridge and then landing would use 20 gallons each way. When I did the calculation comparing four gallons in the car versus forty gallons in the plane, I knew I would never get used to the fuel flow. I had it for sale within a week.

Tim
 
I've had an Aerostar 702P for about two years. Generally, I agree with Tim. Bottom line: it's probably the best bang for the buck in terms of performance, but that doesn't mean it's cheap (cost, like energy, rises exponentially with speed). I'm also not sure it fits your mission (more on that below).

How much you spend at acquisition is hugely important. You can buy a cheap Aerostar with run-out engines, a leaky cabin, and 1980s avionics that's a bloody mess, or you can go spend $400k and have a bird that flies as well or better than a brand-new production airplane. I took the latter route and have been pretty happy. The plane hadn't flown much in the year preceding my purchase, so my first annual was about $25k. I fixed everything that even looked liked it wanted to break. I didn't need to spend that much, but I like to run a tight ship. Most owners say their typical annuals are around $15k, with a big one every so often when something expensive needs fixing. The U2A engines are some of the most reliable big piston engines out there.

IMO, old-and-well-maintained isn't much different from new; I flew plenty of brand new Cirruses that had teething troubles, and the Diamond guys never seem to get their TwinStars out of the hangar. Obviously, it's less bitter when warranty is covering those bills, but you're paying for that warranty in depreciation.

Here's one way to think about it: you're acquiring an aircraft that, new, would be around $2mm (a new Baron is $1.4, and it's neither pressurized nor turbocharged). You can scoop up the airframes for well under 1/4 of that price, but your operating and maintenance costs will be that of a $2mm aircraft. The great thing about the Aerostar is that it's far and away the most efficient piston twin out there. It flies faster than anything that's not a turboprop (and faster than some King Airs), but it does that by being remarkably efficient. You can true out at 240ktas burning 44gph or pull back to 205 and burn 30gph. Consider that an SR22T (with, ahem, one engine) runs about that same speed on roughly 19gph! Not to mention that you need to be up in the flight levels freezing your ass off and wearing a full-face mask to get even close to 200 true. (I'm not bashing Cirrus at all; I flew one for years and think they're exceptional airplanes. I'm just making the point that the A* is wonderfully efficient if you want it to be. Reality, of course, means that most of us are lead foots.)

I've found AAC's numbers here to be about right in terms of cost: http://aerostaraircraft.com/Super 700 Operating.pdf

The guys at AAC are top-notch; the only thing they don't do is make new planes. The Aerostar is one of the best supported aircraft out there, and parts are more available than for some in-production planes. The owner community is fantastic. Aerostars are quirky, though, and all that efficiency means stuff is crammed together in the damnedest ways. It's not always easy to find a mechanic familiar with the bird.

Now, all that said (here comes the buzzkill) I'm thinking that a big pressurized twin might be overkill for a 150NM trip. At that kind of distance, speeds don't matter all that much, and climbing up into the flight levels is just a waste of fuel. I wouldn't bother climbing much above 10k for a 40 minute trip, so who really cares about pressurization?

That said, doing this and seeing this are just stupid fun.

If after all this you're seriously considering the A*, please feel free to PM me.
 
Back
Top