Newer student struggling with landings....

[Threefingeredjack]

Make sure the landing spot doesn't move in the windshield. None...at all. Stationary. Doesn't move. If you're flying directly at a fixed point it doesn't move, right? Don't let it move.

Once you can do that then all you have to do is figure out the flare. Fly it into ground effect and pitch up. Let the speed dissipate and touch down. When it comes to touch down there are two techniques. Fly it 'onto the runway' and fly above the runway and 'let it settle'. The second one is better. Why? Because I said so.

Consistency is key. Do the same thing over and over and that way you can isolate specific things and see what works and what doesn't.

WOW All these years before I knew you and I was still following your advice. I was told years ago that the secret to landings was to make the plane s-l-o-w-l-y stop flying right where you wanted it to. Al it takes is practice.

 

[Henning]

Yep, start with the threshold 2/3rds way up your windshield from a "45* pattern" (figure out where it is for you through series of practice approaches and go arounds until you get the sight picture. During your instructor demonstration you should notice that the perspective lines you are heading at are stable, and the more energy you want to carry, the lower you have to come in to prevent float) and adjust your throttle to keep it there while maintaining your desired/required attitude for your airspeed/flap combo. I suggest you go ahead and add full flaps once you complete the turn from base to final and then trim for the attitude required to have the threshold about 2/3rds way up your windshield. Now use power as required to keep you perspective to your landing point complete. You should be about 1.2 - 1.3 your stall speed in landing configuration by 50' and you now slowly start easing back on the yoke and chase it with 2 solid pulls of nose up trim until you approach that attitude you were taxiing nose up with and hold that, call it 5* nose high on the attitude, but if you did the taxi exercise, you won't need to look. Don't touch the throttle yet. You have some room, and if you have full flaps in and a proper approach alignment, you can carry throttle all the way through the flare and land on the threshold. Here's about an 18kt cross wind landing w/ flaps 40 in a 172 filmed by my Moldovan buddy/crew as I took for his first small plane ride to Leesburg. I took him along when I went to go check a plane for a Belgian client. Sorry, it's long, I didn't film it.

Or on the water.

I love flying the Beech 18. I've been waiting since August to get this next one on line on wheels local job here. It's getting close. I might put my G-500 and 430 in it if I end up with the job.

Here's a water take off:

Here's what you should not let it look like (not mine.)

 

[cavmedic]

You should have full flaps in every time before the flare. If your instructor is having you use partial flaps at this point, they're screwing you.

I was trained to not use 40° flaps on landing in the 150.... ( don't know if it is much different in a 152)

2300 rpm in pattern should be 80 kts

1. 10° flaps ,1700 rpm 45° abeam the 500' markers on downwind. 75 kts
2. 20° flaps , 1700 rpm on base 70 kts
3. 30° flaps ( short final) , 1700 rpm 65 kts, drop power over the numbers.

40° flaps only for short field landings ...


I'm curious how the instructor is screwing him by using partial flaps ? Is it by allowing him to have a faster airspeed ?????

 

[Anthony]

I was trained to not use 40° flaps on landing in the 150.... ( don't know if it is much different in a 152)

2300 rpm in pattern should be 80 kts

1. 10° flaps ,1700 rpm 45° abeam the 500' markers on downwind. 75 kts
2. 20° flaps , 1700 rpm on base 70 kts
3. 30° flaps ( short final) , 1700 rpm 65 kts, drop power over the numbers.

40° flaps only for short field landings ...


I'm curious how the instructor is screwing him by using partial flaps ? Is it by allowing him to have a faster airspeed ?????

Well, its been a lot of years as I got my PPC in a C-152, and I am too lazy to go check my C-152 POH, but if memory serves, 30 degrees is the maximum flap setting on the aircraft.

 

[Henning]

I was trained to not use 40° flaps on landing in the 150.... ( don't know if it is much different in a 152)

2300 rpm in pattern should be 80 kts

1. 10° flaps ,1700 rpm 45° abeam the 500' markers on downwind. 75 kts
2. 20° flaps , 1700 rpm on base 70 kts
3. 30° flaps ( short final) , 1700 rpm 65 kts, drop power over the numbers.

40° flaps only for short field landings ...


I'm curious how the instructor is screwing him by using partial flaps ? Is it by allowing him to have a faster airspeed ?????

It is by limiting the control they have over energy by replacing throttle with inertia for the energy you need to flare (giving up greater airflow across the rudder from prop wash for lesser airflow from airspeed in the process), plus increasing the kinetic energy on touch down (the stuff that causes damage) by the square of the increase in speed. Flaps give you extra control over energy and lift; the more flaps, the more drag and control you get for a given airspeed and the more power it will require to maintain. The advantage to using throttle for required energy, especially in gusty X wind conditions is that ir can be removed instantly, unlike kinetic energy which you have to use drag/lift to bleed off. This allows you to time much more accurately where along the gust cycle your wheels are going to tag up. The fact that you limit this drag by reducing flaps hinders your efforts even more.

There is only one reason an instructor should be teaching a new student partial flaps IMO and that's for 'unusual procedures' because they have an equipment issue.

 

[cavmedic]

Well, its been a lot of years as I got my PPC in a C-152, and I am too lazy to go check my C-152 POH, but if memory serves, 30 degrees is the maximum flap setting on the aircraft.

I'm looking in my POH for the 150 and it only specifies a flap degree @ 40 for short field landing. Everything else so far only mentions 50-60 KIAS for flaps down , normal landing.

 

[Anthony]

I'm looking in my POH for the 150 and it only specifies a flap degree @ 40 for short field landing. Everything else so far only mentions 50-60 KIAS for flaps down , normal landing.

I was only referencing the 152, not the 150. I have a lot of time in the 152, and some in the 150. I'll have to go see if I still have the 150 POH. I'm a pack rat, so I probably do.

So, does your 150 POH specifically say 30 degrees of flaps for normal landings, and 40 for short field?

 

[Henning]

I'm looking in my POH for the 150 and it only specifies a flap degree @ 40 for short field landing. Everything else so far only mentions 50-60 KIAS for flaps down , normal landing.

152 is flaps 30 is max flaps.

 

[cavmedic]

I was only referencing the 152, not the 150. I have a lot of time in the 152, and some in the 150. I'll have to go see if I still have the 150 POH. I'm a pack rat, so I probably do.

So, does your 150 POH specifically say 30 degrees of flaps for normal landings, and 40 for short field?

No, it only references 40 degrees specifically for short field. Nothing else referenced for a specific setting on normal landing anywhere so far. Just a range of airspeeds.

 

[cavmedic]

152 is flaps 30 is max flaps.

I must be going , I thought he mentioned his flap settings , but now I cant find it .




Never mind , I see where I got confused. Dale's post mention the RPM setting and that is where the association began.

 

[Henning]

I must be going , I thought he mentioned his flap settings , but now I cant find it .




Never mind , I see where I got confused. Dale's post mention the RPM setting and that is where the association began.

I don't really like the "numbers" system for small planes. You have to start with it to give a base reference point and as 'good practice' for known procedure, but in and of itself it is limited; one should expand from that to fine tune it. The reason that instructors use reduced flaps is they don't understand managing energy and glide slope with the throttle which is ALWAYS enhanced by the maximum lift/induced drag. Every naval aviator will tell you the same thing, full flaps every time use power to add energy for conditions, and these are guys who land with the throttle wide open.

 

[xaminmo]

The problem with being a fast learner is not knowing what to do when it's not moving fast (difficult or novel concepts).

Just be patient, and keep plugging at it. It will be well worth it. Tweaking at 20 landings is a good place to be. Make sure your CFI knows, so he can help break things up with some other tasks, and additional learning that might be faster.

 

[jeff20578]

Finally had a class yesterday evening again and put to use some of the suggestions that have been mentioned. I think the biggest help was the 30* of flaps. This made the approach much easier.

According to my CFI, I was in control of all my landings without any corrections by him. A few of them where a bit hard but the plane was usable after each landing!

 

[alfadog]

Finally had a class yesterday evening again and put to use some of the suggestions that have been mentioned. I think the biggest help was the 30* of flaps. This made the approach much easier.

According to my CFI, I was in control of all my landings without any corrections by him. A few of them where a bit hard but the plane was usable after each landing!

Good for you!

This book really helped me get on the right track with landings.

http://www.amazon.com/Make-Better-Landings-Ellesmere-Bramson/dp/0711019525

Here is a fun game for landing. Turn final at 500 feet or so, add your last notch of flaps, then using your sight picture of the runway and your best judgment of glide, make one and only one adjustment to power. See if you can make the right adjustment. Obviously, make correction if you got it wrong. Repeat.

I will summarize how Bransom teaches the "power-assisted landing", i.e. the normal landing where power is available, later when I can review the book.

 

[lr60plt]

As others have said....the "fly a foot above the runway" thing works well.

Try NOT to land.

 

[Henning]

One thing I find over and over in these threads is that people quote MPH speeds with KTS labels interchangeably; this is not good lol.