Newbie: Piper Cherokee last MOH in ‘74

[machkhatib]

I’m the buyer 1965 Piper Cherokee 140 with the 160hp conversion. I don’t know if the seller has been playing hide-the-ball or if I’m just bad at this (probably both) but after getting a mechanic to do a pre-buy and seeing no major issues, I finally got the seller to send me the logbook page for the last major overhaul (I had asked a couple times before). I now see it was done in 1974. The 160hp conversion was done in 2007 and is described by the seller as an IRAN.

Aircraft is about 4,900 TT, 1570 SMOH, and 900 hours since the IRAN/conversion. Price is $47K.

Keep going or cut bait?

 

[Bob Noel]

Not enough information

The conversion was done 14/15 years ago and 900 hours over those 15 years (~60hr/year). And the MOH was 37 years ago (18hr/year until the conversion). And the engine is waaaaaaay beyond the recommended calendar TBO.

Is $47,000 a fair price for a Cherokee 140 (with 160hp) with a runout engine? That would depend on the airframe and avionics.

 

[machkhatib]

Not enough information

The conversion was done 14/15 years ago and 900 hours over those 15 years (~60hr/year). And the MOH was 37 years ago (18hr/year until the conversion). And the engine is waaaaaaay beyond the recommended calendar TBO.

Is $47,000 a fair price for a Cherokee 140 (with 160hp) with a runout engine? That would depend on the airframe and avionics.

Airframe is fine, avionics are quite basic.

 

[Jdm]

It kinda depends on how bad you want it. I’d say on this one, if you think you’d still be happy with it after spending double the asking price then go for it. You’ll probably have about that much in it by the time it’s in proper condition.

 

[machkhatib]

It kinda depends on how bad you want it. I’d say on this one, if you think you’d still be happy with it after spending double the asking price then go for it. You’ll probably have about that much in it by the time it’s in proper condition.

Yikes. No, I wouldn’t be happy with it.

 

[TrueCourse]

Has it been flying 60 hours a year on average since 2007 (900/15) or has it been parked and not flying for a lot of recent years? If it’s flying regularly without issues and the inspection included particular focus on the engine it can still be a candidate, but I’d aim for further price reduction. If it flies a lot it’s going to need an overhaul with a few years.

 

[mondtster]

I’d want to see the logbook entry for the engine conversion/IRAN before pulling the plug. The engine may have received something close to an overhaul at that time but the mechanic or shop performing the work didn’t feel it qualified as an overhaul.

I’ve done a few engines like that at the owner’s request in an effort to save money. I’m sure they will regret it when they try to sell the airplane and the prospective buyer questions it, despite having the equivalent of a much fresher engine.

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

Hard to tell. The engine is well past calendar TBO. For private use, I don't really pay much attention to calendar TBO but if it's that long, I would treat it as a run-out. The engine might run fine for another ten years or craps out tomorrow, there really is no telling. How are the compressions and oil use?

I bought my Cherokee, also a 140 with the 160 HP conversion last December for $35k (Canadian, so in paper dollars it's like $28k). My engine has about 300 hours since overhaul and conversion about ten years ago. I knew when I bought it that I'll have to spend some money on it. Although all ADs were complied with, the plane was in rough condition cosmetically and had/has old avionics which I'm replacing little by little. So far, I put about $5k in it and I'm probably another $5k away from where I want it to be.

Just be prepared for this if you go for it, both the cost and the potential for down time. I can't tell if $47k is a fair price for a Cherokee with a TBO'd engine down in the States as I don't know the market as well. Up here, it would be overpriced in my opinion.

 

[machkhatib]

Here’s what the IRAN says:

1. Disassembled engine
2. Inspected crankshaft and crankcase
3. Replaced rod bolts and nuts
4. Replaced crank bolt
5. Reworked all cylinders with new exhaust guides and rings
6. Converted to 160hp (replaced pistons and carburetor)
7. Replaced camshaft and lifters with reground

About 900 hours since that IRAN. But I imagine any future buyer would be hung up on the 1974 major overhaul just like I am, so it’s a hit to resale value… right?

 

[mondtster]

About 900 hours since that IRAN. But I imagine any future buyer would be hung up on the 1974 major overhaul just like I am, so it’s a hit to resale value… right?

Do you feel the price is out of line for the condition/status of the aircraft in the current market? If not, buy it. If you do, either move on or see if the seller will take a price you’re comfortable with. The transaction can really be that simple.

Why are we worried about resale value of an item that hasn’t even been purchased yet? Further, I assume the goal is to use the aircraft which will have an effect on future valuation. Just my opinion, but it sounds like this is an attempt to purchase at the low end of the market. Engine age generally does not affect a low end purchase the same way it would on a medium to high end aircraft.

Concerning the engine, how was it converted to 160hp? Via an STC on the engine or conversion to a different engine model? The STC for the airframe is a separate matter. Hopefully the paperwork is sorted.

 

[machkhatib]

Do you feel the price is out of line for the condition/status of the aircraft in the current market? If not, buy it. If you do, either move on or see if the seller will take a price you’re comfortable with. The transaction can really be that simple.

Ignoring the IRAN, $47K for 1600 SMOH in 1974 is overpriced, even for this market. This deal cannot compete with low-time, nicely equipped Cherokees that are $25K more.

Why are we worried about resale value of an item that hasn’t even been purchased yet? Further, I assume the goal is to use the aircraft which will have an effect on future valuation.

There's a deal to be made at every price point but this appears to be overpriced. The seller is pricing the airplane as if the IRAN is equivalent to MOH and that isn't the case. The question frequently comes up on forums such as these: "Should I get IRAN or MOH?" The general consensus is that that the IRAN will impact resell value, so "get the IRAN if you don't intend to sell the airplane."

 

[mondtster]

Ignoring the IRAN, $47K for 1600 SMOH in 1974 is overpriced, even for this market. This deal cannot compete with low-time, nicely equipped Cherokees that are $25K more.



There's a deal to be made at every price point but this appears to be overpriced. The seller is pricing the airplane as if the IRAN is equivalent to MOH and that isn't the case. The question frequently comes up on forums such as these: "Should I get IRAN or MOH?" The general consensus is that that the IRAN will impact resell value, so "get the IRAN if you don't intend to sell the airplane."

Sounds like you don’t like it. Move on to the next airplane then.

 

[somorris]

I agree with mondster. If the bottom end stuff had been sent to Tulsa or similar, that would mean it got a good inspection. For a local mechanic to pronounce it good, that is completely different.

 

[Jdm]

It’s not even close to a major OH. No part of it is close. Not the bottom, and not the top. So don’t price it as such. And, if I’m understanding this correctly, it’s way out of calendar time. Some people don’t get too hung up on calendar time but I do, from an appraisal point that is. The manufacturers recommendation is very clear. Either it in or it’s out. This one is clearly out and that affects what it’s worth. Not saying I won’t run one over calendar time. I do that regularly.

You’re tackling it correctly by looking at the facts, so don’t stray from that approach.
With that being said, you’re never going to find the perfect plane at the perfect price. If it’s something you can work with go for it, if not move on.
Most buyers end up spending a lot more than they expect after purchasing an airplane. This one sounds no different.
Either buy something that needs work and deal with it over time, or get something in primo condition and pay a premium price.
I tend to go for the happy medium ones because I seem to find stuff wrong with even the nicest ones. On the other hand, if I purchase something that needs too much work it ends up like The Hotel California around here. Checks in the hanger and never checks out!

 

[machkhatib]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the input. The Seller insisted on pricing the IRAM as if it was an OH and refused to budge so I officially terminated the contract. There are plenty of other Cherokees out there and I already found a better one (with a much more recent OH) for the same price. I will take my time. I’m happy to keep renting until I find the right buy.

 

[Bob Noel]

good call.