New to pilot training

[CountBlacula]

Hi, I'm new here. I plan on starting flight training at a part 141 flight school (I prefer to keep the school anonymous). I have done my research on flight schools and visited several. I am cautious about being scammed like many new students. I have a couple questions.

1. I was told by the school that they don't owe me a private pilot license just because I took the lessons. I see that two ways; either they are being transparent and setting the right expectation that It all comes down to me and that I am responsible for my success by showing up consistently and doing my due diligence on the ground and away from school. I understand many students don't take training as seriously as they should and they rack up hours or never finish. I also understand most pilots in training don't finish at the FAA minimums. So my expectations are realistic. On the other hand I feel I was set up to the notion that I will rack up hours for the school and the CFI's flight hours on my dime. What do you guys think?

2.In addition to the FAA class one medical would it be a good idea to go to a Ophthalmologist as well? I don't want to find out down the line when I am getting a commercial that I can't fly at night for example.

3. The flight hours with instruction are 30 hours and 5 hours solo. This is a part 141 school. I have heard pilots going solo at 12 to 15 hours. I am guessing the difference must be part 141 vs. part 61?

Thank you.

 

[mscard88]

Don't know how they actually verbalized that to you, but yes, most of it is up to you and your preparation for lessons. There is no guarantee on a set amount of hours.

What do you need a First Class for now? All that's required is a Third Class. I don't know if you need to see an ophthalmologist though, up to you if you think you have a problem.

Here's the actual 141 flight training requirement:

(1)For an airplane single-engine course: 20 hours of flight training from a certificated flight instructor on the approved areas of operation in paragraph (d)(1) of this section that includes at least -

(i) Except as provided in § 61.111 of this chapter, 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a single-engine airplane;

(ii) 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes -

(A) One cross-country flight of more than 100-nautical-miles total distance; and

(B) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

(iii) Three hours of flight training in a single engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of a single engine airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight; and

(iv) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within 60 days preceding the date of the test.

Sounded like you're under the impression you only fly 5 hours solo and 30 dual, which is not the case as you can read above. With that said, you may and most likely will exceed the minimum amount of hours stated above.

Sols flight can occur at any point during training. 141 is more structured and formal while 61 isn't, but usually 141 has a designated lesson for solo while 61 may not necessarily.

 

[Rushie]

Not sure what the school meant by that, I'll leave it to others familiar with part 141 schools. The school doesn't "give" you a license anyway. They're probably just making clear there are no money back guarantees.

But certainly the medical is something you want to clear up before you spend one dime on training. I see no need to visit an eye doctor unless you have vision difficulty. Your visit to the AME will screen you for color blindness or other problems. If you already suspect you have something like that then don't go for your medical until you find out exactly how to handle the problem. One way to do that is to schedule a CONSULT with an AME, not a certification visit. Go over with him all your medical history and if there are any roadblocks find out the deal before ever applying.

Same if you have any kind of medical history, especially psychological issues such as taking ADHD medications, antidepressants, etc., and any DUI or arrest record. These seem to be what trips up a lot of young would be pilots. Otherwise any serious or chronic conditions for example type I diabetes. Do your research on medical certification and understand it completely before you sign up for this or any flight school.

 

[Vance Breese]

I feel how long it takes you is simply how long it takes you and it is important that you understand that. Everyone is different. They expend different amounts of effort and get different results. Comparing your performance against others is often counterproductive.

It wouldn’t hurt to find out about your eyes.

Minimums are just that; for part 61 airplane single engine land rating it is.

Sec. 61.109 — Aeronautical experience.

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least—

It is probably a good time to start to get used to looking things up in the FAR/AIM.

In this case it will help you to understand the difference between a 141 school and a part 61 school.

 

[James331]

No one owes you a license, it's something you earn, not something you buy, and much of flying is up to you, also there is a chance you'll suck at it and won't be able to get a license, life is not fair.

Two just get the 1st or 2nd class medical (if you're younger it's the same test anyways), they will also check your eyes.

The time to solo (as well as earn each certificate or rating) has to do with the INDIVIDUAL CFI and YOU, that said I've trained a ton of guys and am not exactly new to flying or CFIing, the average solo is after about 15hrs, also most of my guys also had a decent amount of solo time over the mins, after all you need those hours anyways, and you're only paying for the plane.


Best bet if you're going career would be to start off in gliders and then to a freelance CFI and a club plane for the simple single engine add on, then then a sim and BASIC plane for your instrument, build hours in gliders and maybe also find a inexpensive little tail wheel to rent, and then get your CPL.

Since you don't know anything about aviation, you'll be better off building your foundation in gliders, it'll make you look better to employers, save you money, there are less sketchy glider schools and most importantly it will make you a better pilot.

http://www.ssa.org/WhereToFlyMap.asp

 

[HAPPYDAN]

Sounds like you're headed in the right direction, with some good advice here. On the internet, we tend to see more negative comments than positive, including flight school "scams". Do your best and come prepared for every lesson, and put the "scam" idea out of your head. They want you to pass and get the certificate - it makes the school (and you) look good. I will back up comments on the vision test, though. If you remotely suspect you may have a problem, a visit to your eye Doc is a good idea. Even if you flunk the 3rd class medical, there are solutions. Just ask.

 

[CountBlacula]

Thanks for the input everyone. Much appreciated!

The conversation that transpired was; hey just cause you paid us and did X amount of hours doesn't mean we'll give you a license. "Your happiness is second to your safety and being able to preform the necessary steps to being a pilot." He said that he's had students ask why don't I have my license yet and they don't have the online work completed or can't nail the required maneuvers 100% of the time. I was told it is pretty cut and dry. Did you pass the exercise or fail and that's it. The more I think about it I think he is just setting the right expectation and letting me know it's fun becoming a pilot but it's not his priority to make me happy.

That being said I will take my training seriously and be consistent in my lessons. I think I will proceed with this school and schedule to meet with their doctor. A lot of other schools weren't pay as you go. I do however want to visit a flight instructor that agreed to meet with me. He is a lot further away than the school which is 10 min from my house. Flightinstructorjoe or mypilotprogress.com, I can't post links yet.

This was one option I was exploring was just finding a CFI with a plane and a passion for aviation. This guy seems to be that guy, he stands out.

In regards to the class one medical I think they just want to get you the best you can get so there are no ifs down the line... I should have mentioned before I don't suspect I have any eye or medical problems. I have 20/20 vision as far as I know.

Mark, could it be that you can get soled whenever but still have to do a minimum of 30 hours with an instructor? I guess that might be a question for the school.

James, not sure about the whole glider thing. It never interested me and I don't see how it makes me look good to future potential employers. I do however agree it would build a strong foundation for aviation; I just don't see it as a necessary step. Are you saying it is more cost efficient to do it that way?

 

[mscard88]

Thanks for the input everyone. Much appreciated!

Mark, could it be that you can get soled whenever but still have to do a minimum of 30 hours with an instructor? I guess that might be a question for the school.

No, the minimum dual is 20 hours. It's spelled out in FAR 141 that I quoted in my post above. Here's a link:
Appendix
Appendix B to Part 141—Private Pilot Certification Course


Here's an old article about Part 61 vs Part 141 I found:

http://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-technique/new-pilots/flight-school-part-61-or-part-141

 

[James331]

...
James, not sure about the whole glider thing. It never interested me and I don't see how it makes me look good to future potential employers. I do however agree it would build a strong foundation for aviation; I just don't see it as a necessary step. Are you saying it is more cost efficient to do it that way?....

It'll help you look good to future employers because it's a good indication you ACTUALLY understand and can fly using energy management and have some stick and rudder skills, something lacking in many "graduates" of mass pilot producing programs, and also something most greenhorn 172 CPLs lack. Best to not follow the flock, if it wasn't for my tons tailwheel time I wouldn't have got my first few jobs

Cost effective, that's another benifit especially if you get into a good glider club

 

[CountBlacula]

Thank you James. I'll look into it.

I'm just trying to leave no stone left unturned with my flight training.

 

[mscard88]

It'll help you look good to future employers because it's a good indication you ACTUALLY understand and can fly using energy management and have some stick and rudder skills, something lacking in many "graduates" of mass pilot producing programs, and also something most greenhorn 172 CPLs lack. Best to not follow the flock, if it wasn't for my tons tailwheel time I wouldn't have got my first few jobs

Not knocking glider training at all, but this advice isn't necessarily factual.

 

[James331]

View attachment 57095

Not knocking glider training at all, but this advice isn't necessarily factual.

Yeah, because if you were hiring greenhorns you'd look at a 0-hero 172 driver the same as someone who cut their teeth in gliders and also had a bunch of tailwheel time?

 

[mscard88]

Glider and tail wheel time irrelevant. Airlines I interviewed didn't ask about my tailwheel time, or whether I had any glider time. Same for a couple corporate gigs I flew at. Not saying it's invaluable. Just not relevant for the vast majority of flying jobs.

 

[CARLOS W]

A school doesn't have the say in getting a liscense. You and The DPE do

 

[James331]

Glider and tail wheel time irrelevant. Airlines I interviewed didn't ask about my tailwheel time, or whether I had any glider time. Same for a couple corporate gigs I flew at. Not saying it's invaluable. Just not relevant for the vast majority of flying jobs.

What airline hires 250hr greenhorns?

 

[mscard88]

What airline hires 250hr greenhorns?

Regionals did at one point before the law changed. I know because they flew as my FOs, and none had glider/tailwheel time and flew well for their experience level. James, I'm not saying glider and/or tailwheel time is invaluable, it's just not relevant when seeking employment as a professional pilot in the vast majority of flying jobs.

 

[abqtj]

The amount of instructional time it takes you up until you solo has nothing to do with the quantity of solo hours required to meet minimums to be eligible to take your check ride for your license.


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[James331]

Regionals did at one point before the law changed. I know because they flew as my FOs, and none had glider/tailwheel time and flew well for their experience level. James, I'm not saying glider and/or tailwheel time is invaluable, it's just not relevant when seeking employment as a professional pilot in the vast majority of flying jobs.

Well it sure as heck got me my first few jobs, and it's that 250-500hr area where we see people wash out, having most all my time Tailwheel landed me into my first few jobs and got me over the initial greenhorn hump and with a pretty good QOL to boot.

 

[mscard88]

Depends on type of job applying for. Yours may have called for your qualifications. But you can't make a blanket statement that that appeals to all jobs.

 

[airbornejohnny]

Thank you James. I'll look into it.

I'm just trying to leave no stone left unturned with my flight training.

Hey man. Keep leaving no stone unturned. Whether you go 141 or 61 if something isn’t right between you and your instructor, remember you can always get another one...personalities clash and everyone in aviation would agree that should not be the case flying an airplane, especially when you’re just starting out. I’ve gone both 141 and 61, and while everyone’s experience may vary, they both have their pros and cons. Best thing for you to do is own your training; maybe what the guy at the school was trying to get across. Hit the books, ASK QUESTIONS and fly safe! And once you’ve earned your ppl, don’t stop learning something new...it’s a license to learn after all.

 

[JimNtexas]

I do agree that a young student pilot looking at a career should be sure he or she can pass a class one physical. If he has medical issues now ,what will happen in 15years?

 

[Witmo]

And there is a difference in Class 1 vs Class 2 physicals. Doesn't the Class 1 require a EKG?

 

[airbornejohnny]

And there is a difference in Class 1 vs Class 2 physicals. Doesn't the Class 1 require a EKG?

Yes, and then every physical after age 40 iirc