New To Me Plane, Time for Annual

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Danny Dub

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Danny Dub
Hi guys. Just bought a 1960 Cessna 175a. It has been sitting for a while and we are working through the cosmetic type stuff to get it ready for annual. I had a mechanic at it's old home base do a lot to get us going but after the flight home it is clear that some issues still need to be resolved.

The logs that came with the plane are iffy but probably mostly intact. How does the IA go about all the background checking of the plane (or do they)? Maybe he will only be worried about the current condition and not the history.

Any advice is welcomed. I am a pilot by profession so I can't risk flying a plane that isn't totally legal. Trying to understand this aircraft ownership world.

Thanks in advance.

Dan
 
If you haven't done so already, be sure to join the C-175 Association (http://www.cessna175.org/ ). There are some good resources there and, of course, a few very devoted 175 owners. To answer your question, a knowledgeable and competent IA can inspect and essentially certify as airworthy certain work that perhaps was not properly documented either in the logs or via 337. Be sure to order the aircraft history CD from the FAA.
 
Hey Danny. Welcome to PoA and plane ownership! Best of luck with the annual!
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Hey Danny. Welcome to PoA and plane ownership! Best of luck with the annual!
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:yeahthat:

Great to add another new PoAer and airplane owner victim, er...pilot. :D

You can do a lot yourself. An example, compile a record of all the applicable ADs and check to see they each have actually been complied with.

If you don't have a good history/logs I would open it up completely and check everything including cable tensions.
 
GRG55 said:
:yeahthat:

Great to add another new PoAer and airplane owner victim, er...pilot. :D

You can do a lot yourself. An example, compile a record of all the applicable ADs and check to see they each have actually been complied with.

If you don't have a good history/logs I would open it up completely and check everything including cable tensions.
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Compile ADs? Is this from the FAA site? Assuming i use the tail number to search?
 
Also, any ideas where to get a new poh? The one in the plane is in bad shape.
 
Danny Dub said:
Also, any ideas where to get a new poh? The one in the plane is in bad shape.
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Unlike some other manufacturers, who post their POHs on the web, apparently Cessna actively hunts down people who do that with theirs. So I suspect you'll have to go back to them for it.
 
Danny Dub said:
Any advice is welcomed. I am a pilot by profession so I can't risk flying a plane that isn't totally legal. Trying to understand this aircraft ownership world.

Thanks in advance.

Dan
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Hi Dan. Welcome to PoA.

Does your 175 have the original geared O-300? If so, you have to operate it exactly as the POH says to run it. It has a 3,200 RPM redline, IIRC. People tend to run it like a regular O-300 and it overheats when operated like that.

If it has been converted to an O-360 or similar, well, that makes it a really nice performing airplane without those issues.

Greg
 
Danny Dub said:
Also, any ideas where to get a new poh? The one in the plane is in bad shape.
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You can buy them directly from Cessna if desired. I usually do because the come plastic spiral bound which lets me take it apart easy, Then I scan it on a high resolution scanner and put it on electronic devices.
 
Prepare to bend over and take it up the six. The POH for my C150 was in tatters, and I let it stay that way too. It was physically in the airplane, so I was good. I don't recall the number to get a new one from Cessna, but I didn't like it.
 
Danny Dub said:
Trying to understand this aircraft ownership world
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The quickest way to understanding aircraft ownership is to be involved. If you're up for it, ask your IA if he allows owner-assisted annuals. After a couple annuals you'll truly understand the ins and outs first hand.

Danny Dub said:
Maybe he will only be worried about the current condition and not the history.
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History is equally important as current condition and the IA will research as far back as he needs. In general terms, when the IA signs off an annual as airworthy he basically certifies the aircraft meets its type design as it came off the assembly line, plus conforms to any subsequent alterations/repairs, ADs, and other airworthiness requirements, minus normal wear and tear. His signature validates the aircraft airworthiness from the date he signs back to manufacture. After the ink dries on his signature, the airworthiness of the aircraft is maintained by the owner and the subsequent IA or mechanic unless there is a regulatory performance issue with past IA or mechanic work.

Good luck with your new plane. And if you have the original geared engine be sure to mind its limits as stated above.
 
Always hated the first annual afterpurchase,always find some expensive stuff,that needs fixing.have you purchased the337s from the Faa?
 
Subscribe to ADlog. have your A&P-IA verify each AD at annual time. and get the aircraft history records from OKC. and read them. page by page, any 337s and change of ownership will be there. plus any STC recorded.
 
So you just bought it and flew it home but it still needs an annual. Then I will assume you got a special flight permit from the FSDO. If so, the mechanic who did the “safe for intended flight” inspection and log entry should have verified the status of all ADs and any outstanding ones that were allowed to remain so for the ferry flight would have been listed on the 8130-6.

Plus your pre-buy inspection should have given a good indication as to its overall airworthiness. This should have included not only a good physical inspection but also a thorough records review.

As to its history, I would think that as part of your due diligence before buying it that you ordered the CD from OKC with the plane’s airworthiness file. This will not have any missing logs but should include any 337 for any major repairs and alterations that were done, provided they were sent to OKC. It will also include copies of the original airworthiness certificate and any changes to it. With the file, an AD list, an inspection checklist, and a sharp eye, a good A&P/IA will not have any difficulty ensuring its airworthiness.

Many on here believe that a proper pre-buy is more detailed than an annual. If you buy into that theory then you should be good to go.
 
Thank you thank you thank you! You guys are amazing. I will follow up on all of this. Some of the due diligence may have not been followed but you live and you learn. I am currently checking the logs against ADs and will order the 337 CD. In theory, as long as no ADs have come out since the latest annual, they should be complied with. So that is where we are. Thanks again.
 
Danny Dub said:
I am currently checking the logs against ADs and will order the 337 CD. In theory, as long as no ADs have come out since the latest annual, they should be complied with. So that is where we are. Thanks again.
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That's not completely true. There may be some recurring ADs on your airplane, and even if they have been complied with in the past they may need to be complied with again in the future. As an owner, it is your responsibility to familiarize yourself with the required repetitive inspections and make sure they are completed as necessary. Compliance times will vary - you may need to look at things every 50 or 100 hours or maybe every 12 calendar months. I can think of one that requires compliance prior to the first flight of each day, so obviously the required compliance time on that one is different than something like the Cessna seat rail AD.

At the last annual the IA who performed the inspection should have verified that all the ADs were complied with. Your new mechanic will likely also want to do a logbook review to verify that all ADs have been complied with, at a minimum. A more conservative mechanic may actually look at the plane and the logbook to verify each AD is complied with. I'd be surprised if you find a mechanic who doesn't do this on an airplane they aren't familiar with, but it does happen.
 
Makes sense.

Just to clarify, the plane is in annual until May. However, it hadn't actually flown in a long time so now that we are ready to actually fly it we are finding some issues.

Also, the mechanic who did the last annual sadly passed away so we we're not able to speak to him about his thoughts on the aircraft.
 
Danny Dub said:
Makes sense.

Just to clarify, the plane is in annual until May. However, it hadn't actually flown in a long time so now that we are ready to actually fly it we are finding some issues.

Also, the mechanic who did the last annual sadly passed away so we we're not able to speak to him about his thoughts on the aircraft.
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Just to nitpick so that we are all on the same page when we discuss things, I have Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic certificates. I also have an Inspection Authorization document. Mechanics don't do annuals. IAs do annuals. So when we say that the "mechanic who did the last annual" it sort if raises the question as to whether the annual was actually signed properly or not.

I know it is a nitpick, but stuff in this newsgroup has raised MONTH LONG rants on less stuff than this. And I'm sure the person who signed the annual signed it as an IA.

Just FYI, and welcome to nitpicker heaven.

Jim
 
As a IA, when I do a annual on a airplane I've never seen before I go through ALL the ADs and Mandatory Service Bulletins. I trust no one when it comes to my sign off. And yes some ADs are recurrent and need to be complied with again. I don't care what you think about the requirement or not of complying with mandatory sbs, I'm going to want compliance before I sign. Or you can take it to the retired airline pilot here that has a IA, just throw your logbook and a check at him as he drives by.
 
weirdjim said:
Just to nitpick so that we are all on the same page when we discuss things, I have Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic certificates. I also have an Inspection Authorization document. Mechanics don't do annuals. IAs do annuals. So when we say that the "mechanic who did the last annual" it sort if raises the question as to whether the annual was actually signed properly or not.

I know it is a nitpick, but stuff in this newsgroup has raised MONTH LONG rants on less stuff than this. And I'm sure the person who signed the annual signed it as an IA.

Just FYI, and welcome to nitpicker heaven.

Jim
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And to pick those darn nits a bit more, you actually have a Mechanic certificate with airframe and powerplant ratings, not “Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic certificates”.

Also, a regulation technicality that gets ignored by everyone but is universally accepted is when an A&P Mechanic with an IA just puts “IA 9999999” when signing off an annual. 43.11 states that the sign off must include “The signature, the certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving or disapproving for return to service the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, component part, or portions thereof.” IA is not a kind of certificate. It is an authorization issued to the holder of a mechanic certificate. So technically, mechanic is the certificate type that should be used in the signoff though everyone signs off with IA and no one really cares.

Like I said, more nits.
 
Danny Dub said:
Hi guys. Just bought a 1960 Cessna 175a. It has been sitting for a while and we are working through the cosmetic type stuff to get it ready for annual. I had a mechanic at it's old home base do a lot to get us going but after the flight home it is clear that some issues still need to be resolved.

The logs that came with the plane are iffy but probably mostly intact. How does the IA go about all the background checking of the plane (or do they)? Maybe he will only be worried about the current condition and not the history.

Any advice is welcomed. I am a pilot by profession so I can't risk flying a plane that isn't totally legal. Trying to understand this aircraft ownership world.

Thanks in advance.

Dan
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Welcome to POA.
CONGRATS on plane buy!!!
 
S
SkyDog58 said:
And to pick those darn nits a bit more, you actually have a Mechanic certificate with airframe and powerplant ratings, not “Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic certificates”.

Also, a regulation technicality that gets ignored by everyone but is universally accepted is when an A&P Mechanic with an IA just puts “IA 9999999” when signing off an annual. 43.11 states that the sign off must include “The signature, the certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving or disapproving for return to service the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, component part, or portions thereof.” IA is not a kind of certificate. It is an authorization issued to the holder of a mechanic certificate. So technically, mechanic is the certificate type that should be used in the signoff though everyone signs off with IA and no one really cares.

Like I said, more nits.
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Signature, number, A&P, IA, date
 
How did it do in its prebuy?

Does that mechanic have any recommendations?

I'd also do all the owner assist you can, saves money and makes you a better pilot.
 
actually it is written as AP xxxxxxx IA

And OBTW the IA is an authorization not a certificate or a license.

The other question
The only repetitive AD on a C-175 is the seat track AD due every 100 hours or Annual which ever occurs first. Doesn't sound as if he is in violation.

Answer the question,, which engine does the aircraft have?
 
Paulie said:
As a IA, when I do a annual on a airplane I've never seen before I go through ALL the ADs and Mandatory Service Bulletins. I trust no one when it comes to my sign off. And yes some ADs are recurrent and need to be complied with again. I don't care what you think about the requirement or not of complying with mandatory sbs, I'm going to want compliance before I sign. Or you can take it to the retired airline pilot here that has a IA, just throw your logbook and a check at him as he drives by.
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The way it should be, :)
 
Tom-D said:
Doesn't really matter now, he owns it.
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Tom! Dude I thought you got abducted by aliens, and not the kind who make good burritos.

But it does make a difference, if there were somethings he told you to keep your eye on etc, also he might have a recommend of a person to do the annual, if not having him do it.

The guy who did my prebuy is the same guy who does all the APIA work on my plane.
 
It has the GO-300. I spent a good portion of the day going through AD compliance and records and I feel way more informed than I did before. At a first glance, the previous owner did a nice job of keeping records of all of that. The worst thing he did was not flying the plane for essentially 10 years.

THE ANNUAL was signed off by an AI using the accepted format, so it is legal.

Yeah as far as prebuy, if I had it to do again I would be more thorough. We drove a long way to see the plane in a snow storm but made a fairly quick decision based on all we could attain. The price was right but we knew we were getting a plane that would need some TLC. An AI who had done several of the recent annuals was the guy we hired to get it ready to fly again so here we are.

Thanks again.
 
James331 said:
Tom! Dude I thought you got abducted by aliens, and not the kind who make good burritos.

But it does make a difference, if there were somethings he told you to keep your eye on etc, also he might have a recommend of a person to do the annual, if not having him do it.

The guy who did my prebuy is the same guy who does all the APIA work on my plane.
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What ever you say. But it is his aircraft now and now he must cope with what he's got.

Actually the month of Jan was a pretty good month to get booted, I got 3 annuals and a major repair completed and a new order for some stuff I'm making for the 4 super cubs I am building in the next year.
 
weirdjim said:
Just to nitpick so that we are all on the same page when we discuss things, I have Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic certificates. I also have an Inspection Authorization document. Mechanics don't do annuals. IAs do annuals. So when we say that the "mechanic who did the last annual" it sort if raises the question as to whether the annual was actually signed properly or not.

I know it is a nitpick, but stuff in this newsgroup has raised MONTH LONG rants on less stuff than this. And I'm sure the person who signed the annual signed it as an IA.

Just FYI, and welcome to nitpicker heaven.

Jim
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Mechanics with Inspection Authorization do annuals.
Refer to e-CFR Title 14, Chapter 1, Subchapter D, Part 65, Subpart D - Mechanics, 65.91 thru 65.95 for Inspection Authorization, Duration, Renewal, Privileges and Limitations. Notice it falls under Mechanics.
 
Danny Dub said:
It has the GO-300.
Thanks again.
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I overhaul the GO-300-D once in a while. Here is what I'd like you to do. Let's see how loose the gears are in the reduction gear box.
position the prop horizontal (3 to 9 o'clock) then place a stick at the tip of the prop that will reach the ground. (A nice 2X2 works good) then push the prop tip up until you know the crank shaft is moving. make a mark on the stick at the top of the blade. Then move the blade down until you feel the crank move again, mark the stick again. How wide is the space between the marks? you can feel the free play in the gears. that is how we measure the gear back lash.
Let mer know how wide the space between the marks are..
The week link in the GO-300 is the gearbox, we must never allow the engine to idle, the power impulses between cylinders firing will create a hammering effect on the gears so we must always keep a load on the gears. or they wear very fast, and create metal in the oil and scare every one.
OBTW,, I love a 175, they are probably one of the best 100 series built.
 
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