New Student, Questioning Future

[joeparrilla]

No, my cousin flys and she is middle class. Fuel is more expensive and Light Sport planes are more prevalent although most airports you still see the same mix of planes you'll typically see here as well. You pay fees at most airports and if you go IFR, fees are weighted by gross weight. Airspace is still quite open, I never have problems flying where I want to go. There's a lot more flying club and glider activity percentage wise.

Ok, doesnt sound too awful. So they fly alot of LSAs compared the US. Seems similar to how we drive gigantic SUVs and they drive MINI's I guess its just all about finding a way to fly. They have the more expensive gas so they use LSA's to fight the cost. I guess thats not a horrible route for GA in the US to take. Some of the homebuilt LSA's are pretty awesome.

 

[wabower]

You might want to dig a bit deeper than Henning's "she be fine" report.

For those who have been involved in GA for a number of years, the decline since the heydays of the 1970's is both dramatic dramatic and saddening, but you obviously haven't been around to see it first-hand.

When you read posts here and elsewhere about closed (or closing) airports, plummeting production of new planes, bankrupt/out-of-business manufacturers, empty tiedowns, deserted FBO's, broke flight schools, declining pilot population, high rental rates, airplane resale values down 30-80% since 2007, soaring fuel prices, $100/hr shop rates, $40,000 engine overhaul costs, $15,000 GPS installations, increasing airspace restrictions, mindless border-crossing requirements, Gestapo-like search and seizure tactics and other such subjects, most of it has happened since 1980 with stunning acceleration since 2001.

So when we talk about an industry/activity under seige and the potential death sprial that could ensue, not all of it is based on future dooms-day forecasts.

Ok, doesnt sound too awful. So they fly alot of LSAs compared the US. Seems similar to how we drive gigantic SUVs and they drive MINI's I guess its just all about finding a way to fly. They have the more expensive gas so they use LSA's to fight the cost. I guess thats not a horrible route for GA in the US to take. Some of the homebuilt LSA's are pretty awesome.

 

[Dav8or]

Ok, doesnt sound too awful. So they fly alot of LSAs compared the US. Seems similar to how we drive gigantic SUVs and they drive MINI's I guess its just all about finding a way to fly. They have the more expensive gas so they use LSA's to fight the cost. I guess thats not a horrible route for GA in the US to take. Some of the homebuilt LSA's are pretty awesome.

It should be noted that their LSAs, which they call Ultralights, have a much lower gross weight limit than ours. They also have much of the same restrictions ours do, so not full integration into the system. Gliders are also a very popular way for middle class to fly there. A lot of this flying is done from private flying club's grass strips.

Henning has no problem flying in the system there because he is an American using an American license. Very few of the European private pilots have an IR. It is very cost prohibitive and much more rigorous than ours. Most forgo it and just fly VFR.

Gas is a lot more expensive. About $10 a gallon. This is why there is such interest in Jet A burning diesels there. A way to cut this cost down. Typical Skyhawk, or Warrior rents for about $250 an hour, dry. If you use a public use airport, or any ATC services, you are charged from taxi to tie down. It really adds up. This contributes to why the middle class flyer flies their ultralight off of grass strips and rarely goes anywhere. They do some sight seeing and return to the same field.

To fly as freely as we do in aircraft we are accustom to, you need to be pretty well off and willing to put up with a lot of government intervention. It does vary from country to country and I think perhaps France is one of the better countries to own and operate and airplane in Europe.

The European governing body there is cracking down on owners and pilots there taking advantage of cheap and easy in the USA. No longer can owners register their plane in the US and base them there. Operating costs are going to go way up. Also US training for the instrument rating, I'm not sure about the private, is no longer valid for natives. They must have the much more expensive and burdensome European ticket.

Yes, the middle class can fly there, just not anything like we're used to. To fly the way we do, you need to be very well off and good with maneuvering in bureaucracy. Perhaps there are some European pilots here that can correct my inaccuracies?

 

[joeparrilla]

You might want to dig a bit deeper than Henning's "she be fine" report.

For those who have been involved in GA for a number of years, the decline since the heydays of the 1970's is both dramatic dramatic and saddening, but you obviously haven't been around to see it first-hand.

When you read posts here and elsewhere about closed (or closing) airports, plummeting production of new planes, bankrupt/out-of-business manufacturers, empty tiedowns, deserted FBO's, broke flight schools, declining pilot population, high rental rates, airplane resale values down 30-80% since 2007, soaring fuel prices, $100/hr shop rates, $40,000 engine overhaul costs, $15,000 GPS installations, increasing airspace restrictions, mindless border-crossing requirements, Gestapo-like search and seizure tactics and other such subjects, most of it has happened since 1980 with stunning acceleration since 2001.

So when we talk about an industry/activity under seige and the potential death sprial that could ensue, not all of it is based on future dooms-day forecasts.

Sounds grim I do understand that its not pretty. I guess I just want some sort of reassurance that I wont fall in love with flying, only to have it taken away from me too soon.

 

[wabower]

I don't think that's a threat, but it's pretty clear that somebody already ate the cherry on top of the whipped cream.

Sounds grim I do understand that its not pretty. I guess I just want some sort of reassurance that I wont fall in love with flying, only to have it taken away from me too soon.

 

[Henning]

I don't think that's a threat, but it's pretty clear that somebody already ate the cherry on top of the whipped cream.

That goes for the country in general, pretty much for humanity on the whole at this point.

 

[joeparrilla]

I don't think that's a threat, but it's pretty clear that somebody already ate the cherry on top of the whipped cream.

That makes me feel better. If I can fly in SOMETHING with wings for a good portion of my life, I will be happy. At least long enough to infect my kids with it.

 

[Henning]

That makes me feel better. If I can fly in SOMETHING with wings for a good portion of my life, I will be happy. At least long enough to infect my kids with it.

Here's one of my favorite rigs, it's an LSA so it can be flown under SP rules. Low cost, high quality.

 

[mtuomi]

It should be noted that their LSAs, which they call Ultralights, have a much lower gross weight limit than ours. They also have much of the same restrictions ours do, so not full integration into the system. Gliders are also a very popular way for middle class to fly there. A lot of this flying is done from private flying club's grass strips.

Henning has no problem flying in the system there because he is an American using an American license. Very few of the European private pilots have an IR. It is very cost prohibitive and much more rigorous than ours. Most forgo it and just fly VFR.

Gas is a lot more expensive. About $10 a gallon. This is why there is such interest in Jet A burning diesels there. A way to cut this cost down. Typical Skyhawk, or Warrior rents for about $250 an hour, dry. If you use a public use airport, or any ATC services, you are charged from taxi to tie down. It really adds up. This contributes to why the middle class flyer flies their ultralight off of grass strips and rarely goes anywhere. They do some sight seeing and return to the same field.

To fly as freely as we do in aircraft we are accustom to, you need to be pretty well off and willing to put up with a lot of government intervention. It does vary from country to country and I think perhaps France is one of the better countries to own and operate and airplane in Europe.

The European governing body there is cracking down on owners and pilots there taking advantage of cheap and easy in the USA. No longer can owners register their plane in the US and base them there. Operating costs are going to go way up. Also US training for the instrument rating, I'm not sure about the private, is no longer valid for natives. They must have the much more expensive and burdensome European ticket.

Yes, the middle class can fly there, just not anything like we're used to. To fly the way we do, you need to be very well off and good with maneuvering in bureaucracy. Perhaps there are some European pilots here that can correct my inaccuracies?

You pretty much described the UK system there, although the prices for rentals aren't that bad. $250 gets you in a Skyhawk wet, not dry.
Gas prices depend on the country, UK averages about 2GBP/litre, which is about 12USD/gallon. Finland is 3.20EUR/litre = over 16USD/gallon. So yes, 100LL in Europe is rather costly.

Apart from usually pretty awful hour building rental 150's(which can be had for less than $100/hr dry), commercial airplane rental is pretty much non-existent in most parts of Europe. Most pilots either own (usually in groups of 2-5), or are part of a flying club and rent from the club. UK has landing fees on just about every strip of land you can put your wheels into, some with no service, some with decent facilities. Europe doesn't really have FBO's as the US does. In most countries (apart from the UK), you can buy a "season pass" that pays for your nav and landing fees inside that country. The prices depend on the country and your MTOW, a 172 is in the region of 1500-2000EUR/year for that pass.

VFR pilots usually are not charged any nav fees, just landing fees.
UK GA scene seems to be mostly $100 hamburger runs to places with cheap landing fees. In many other European countries, people do still go places, but very often its VFR only, because the EASA IR is very expensive. Alot of planes in Europe are N-reg because pilots have the "easier" FAA PPL/IR, but this will stop next April, when EASA "Part-FCL" comes in action. It is not clear yet, how the conversion from FAA IR to EASA IR will happen.

 

[Henning]

I don't fly "in the system" in Europe, I fly VFR on a German conversion. This does allow me to use my FAA medical though, but does not extend instrument privileges on a D tail plane. If I fly an N tail which I do out of Wiesbaden, then all my privileges apply. On the D tails I'll fly out of Köln or Winingen, I am VFR only.

 

[LJS1993]

I see. Well Hopefully it doesnt happen... or at least happens really slowly and takes a long time Im 23, so if I can at least fly for 10 years I guess Id be happy. Maybe I could find another way to get the aviator in me out after that...

If this was to happen, based on the trends of late.. how long would you guess it would take? Are we talking a decade? A generation?

That I cannot answer at all. However I hope general aviation makes a come back and becomes an increasing part of American culture.

 

[Henning]

In another thread, a Dallas student is complaining the training is so busy that he can't get an examiner for his check ride for 2 weeks. Training here in Florida is quite steady as well.

 

[joeparrilla]

In another thread, a Dallas student is complaining the training is so busy that he can't get an examiner for his check ride for 2 weeks. Training here in Florida is quite steady as well.

Yes, I was saying earlier about how it is so crowded at my school that I had to take a Sunday slot for my training. It was the only option. I guess thats a good thing.

 

[LJS1993]

In another thread, a Dallas student is complaining the training is so busy that he can't get an examiner for his check ride for 2 weeks. Training here in Florida is quite steady as well.

Good point indeed. However I wonder how many people are getting their PPL's only to never truly utilize them due to both the initial cost and continuing cost of aviation?

 

[Dav8or]

Here's one of my favorite rigs, it's an LSA so it can be flown under SP rules. Low cost, high quality.

View attachment 31423

Those are cool. My neighbor in my bay has one of those on floats like that. I want one. Actually, what I really want is a Leza AirCam on floats, but you can't fly that SP and you actually need a multi ticket.

 

[Henning]

Good point indeed. However I wonder how many people are getting their PPL's only to never truly utilize them due to both the initial cost and continuing cost of aviation?

Cost alone isn't the issue for most people, it's cost for value. GA is very low value in a practical sense outside a very small user set. The cost of flying is just the beginning if you use GA to go somewhere, then you have the cost of parking and getting a car to go from the airport to your final destination. If you are a renter pilot, taking a plane on a trip is often a difficult prospect due not only to minimum daily times, but you may have to reserve the plane months ahead of time if it's even possible at all to keep the plane for a week. This is why it has always been true that a large percentage of people who get their PP quit flying not long after. Even people who get a CP find the terms of employment and the costs of getting to that point just don't make sense. You really have to want to fly to have GA make sense, because from every angle you see, there is almost always a better option. If you want to fly, you just don't care. For me, the view is worth the expense, that's why most all my time is VFR, the view inside the clouds kinda sucks.

 

[ebetancourt]

Ah yes fuel. ...the Corvette even though it impractical. I guess its a matter of passion, and hanging on as long as you can until it just doesnt make sense economically.

What's impractical about a Corvette? Totally reliable 20mpg. I love mine.

 

[jesse]

It's funny how often I see people say that traveling GA is not practical. I beg to differ there are plenty of trips I do where it without a doubt was the best option resulting in significant time savings. The value of being able to travel on your own schedule is also huge.

 

[jesse]

I went from Nebraska to Orlando on Southwest and then returned via 172. Door to door time in the 172 was still a few hours less.

Travel diagonally for a state or two in the Midwest and even in a 150 you'll chop the time in half over driving. Go faster and cut it to a third or less.

 

[DaleB]

It's funny how often I see people say that traveling GA is not practical. I beg to differ there are plenty of trips I do where it without a doubt was the best option resulting in significant time savings. The value of being able to travel on your own schedule is also huge.

Blasphemy, Jesse. You can't say things like that. Don't you know? Dispatch reliability, yadda yadda yadda. All the guys (who, coincidentally, all seem to own planes) told me that ages ago. Good thing I take advice for what it's worth.

 

[wabower]

They're just saying they haven't figured out a way to do it. In many cases it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. They won't make the effort and then ***** because it doesn't happen.

It's funny how often I see people say that traveling GA is not practical. I beg to differ there are plenty of trips I do where it without a doubt was the best option resulting in significant time savings. The value of being able to travel on your own schedule is also huge.

 

[LJS1993]

It's funny how often I see people say that traveling GA is not practical. I beg to differ there are plenty of trips I do where it without a doubt was the best option resulting in significant time savings. The value of being able to travel on your own schedule is also huge.

I can see this if you include all the time in security, baggage, and getting out of a major airport. Instead you fly to smaller air fields, rent a car, and get where you want to go. It seems possible.

 

[somorris]

Travel diagonally for a state or two in the Midwest and even in a 150 you'll chop the time in half over driving. Go faster and cut it to a third or less.

That is what I have found, Jesse. Earlier this week, KAWM to Eureka Springs, AR via C-150 = 2hrs 18 min plus half an hour on each end = 3 hrs 18 min. Driving = 5 hours.

 

[Henning]

That is what I have found, Jesse. Earlier this week, KAWM to Eureka Springs, AR via C-150 = 2hrs 18 min plus half an hour on each end = 3 hrs 18 min. Driving = 5 hours.

No doubt you can save time. So you saved 1:45, what did it cost? When I had my midget mustang, it was cheap, fast, and efficient enough I actually saved money on my commute over driving my truck, but I couldn't take much with me.

 

[douglas393]

No doubt you can save time. So you saved 1:45, what did it cost? When I had my midget mustang, it was cheap, fast, and efficient enough I actually saved money on my commute over driving my truck, but I couldn't take much with me.

Sanity??? I live on the west coast of florida and had a conference on the east coast. I had a friend who drove from Ft Myers to Miami each day for the conference. He got up at 5 am was on the road at 6 am, drove to the convention center found a spot to park, and walked to the convention center, getting there at 10 am. I on the other hand flew, KPGD to KOPF, woke up a 7 am airport at 8 am and took a cab to the convention center arriving at 10 am. So I essentially save about 2 hrs. Cost me $150 in airplane costs(my hourly cost) plus $20 for the cab. However, when I met my friend he was still calming down from the drive(Miami traffic, Alligator Alley, etc). I on the other hand was fresh and ready to go. His cost was 2.5 hours driving(about 180 miles-20 mpg so 9 gallons about 30 dollars, 20 dollars to park, and 2 dollars for tolls). So it was much cheaper for him monetarily, but I got a lot more out of the conference than he did.

 

[wabower]

All modes of travel including GA have their own special irritants, but orange cones, wrecks and speed traps are high on my list. I much prefer straight-line travel where people seem to think that going fast is a good thing.

 

[skidoo]

I now may often go to a location about 675 miles. To drive it is 11 to 12 hours. Flight in the 182 is about 3 hours. To go commercial, it is an hour and a half drive to the major airport, then wait an hour or more for security, etc..., then flight of 3 hours if lucky enough to get the one or two short flights available, or 5 to 9 hours if not. So, even commercial, it would be 5 to to 11 hours.

That is for one way. So, by flying direct in the private aircraft, I can essentially spend most of the day there rather than traveling. Essentially I save two days for each trip.

On the other hand, I have another location where I go about 70 miles, or just over an hour driving. It doesn't really make sense to fly there because by the time I preflight and am ready to take off, I would otherwise be 1/3 to 1/2 way there by driving. There is not enough time savings to make dealing with ground transportation worthwhile.

 

[Bill]

All modes of travel including GA have their own special irritants, but orange cones, wrecks and speed traps are high on my list. I much prefer straight-line travel where people seem to think that going fast is a good thing.

Especially on a holiday weekend. Flying across the bay into Destin and looking down to see all the cars back up aross the bridge? Priceless!

 

[wabower]

Interstates seem to have many more speed-limit changes now. We drove to Austin last week and couldn't keep up with all the 70-75-60-65-70, etc. Lots of city cops working the roads, so I assume the different limits are nothing more than revenue enhancers since the controlled-access characteristics are identical to the other places.

Especially on a holiday weekend. Flying across the bay into Destin and looking down to see all the cars back up aross the bridge? Priceless!

 

[Ted]

In 2000 hours of trans-continental travel in piston GA, I can still count the number of canceled trips on one hand. Maybe I've gotten onto the second hand at some point.

In far fewer airline trips, I've lost count of the number of cancellations.

 

[Henning]

In 2000 hours of trans-continental travel in piston GA, I can still count the number of canceled trips on one hand. Maybe I've gotten onto the second hand at some point.

In far fewer airline trips, I've lost count of the number of cancellations.

In about the same number of hours I can recall canceling once for a commute to work through a winter storm, I drove 7hrs instead. I've delayed a few and put down on a few, but typically not for more than a few hours, and that's almost exclusively staying VFR as well.

 

[wabower]

When I switched from the airlines to GA I mistakenly thought that I could just jump on the smoker when the weather precluded using my plane.

Then I quickly learned that they probably weren't flying on those days either either, but for different reasons. Usually because their plane was stuck somewhere else due to WX, MX or timed-out crew.

 

[somorris]

So you saved 1:45, what did it cost?

Priceless .

 

[Henning]

When I switched from the airlines to GA I mistakenly thought that I could just jump on the smoker when the weather precluded using my plane.

Then I quickly learned that they probably weren't flying on those days either either, but for different reasons. Usually because their plane was stuck somewhere else due to WX, MX or timed-out crew.

When I flew back from OSH a couple years back there was a major line across from Tampa to Cape Canaveral. As I was descending for the Atlantic coast at Kennedy Space center to duck under and run just offshore ATC called me up "9SA, you can disregard any airspace restrictions, the sky is yours, find your safest path through. There is no one else flying in the state at this time." "Roger, thank you, 25' running offshore fat dumb and happy, will be in the clear in 10 minutes." Airliners were still on the ground in Atlanta and Miami when I was landing at FXE. Sometimes GA will get you through when the airlines won't.