New Spin Zone policy - trial run

Greebo

Greebo

N9017H - C172M (1976)
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Retired Evil Overlord
As many of you know, POA MC members volunteer their time to the board. As many of you know (or should know), the Spin Zone has often been a huge drain on MC members' time and energy. Due to to the volunteer nature of the MC (read that we all have day jobs) we often don't have the time to respond as promptly as we would like to every bad post report, a vast majority of which emanate from Spin Zone. In the past we have closed Spin Zone for a cooling off period and even debated eliminating it entirely from the board.

We recognize however that SZ is an important part of the board to many participants and want to do what we can to keep it up and running, but we can't continue with the current work load it creates. To that end, the MC has decided to embark on a bit of an experiment for sixty (60) days. Starting on January 22 and continuing until March 23, Spin Zone will be unmoderated. However the following rules will apply:

1) EVERYONE (and we mean EVERYONE) who wants to participate in Spin Zone, whether they have been in SZ for years or not, must once again opt into Spin Zone and accept that it is an unmoderated forum that may from time to time get testy.
2) NO ONE under 18 will be permitted to participate in Spin Zone. Anyone under 18 found to have joined the Spin Zone will be subject to suspension from the entire forum.
3) All SZ material in non-SZ threads will be deleted rather than being moved to SZ UNLESS the OP requests such a move by PM to the MC upon learning of the deletion. However, posting SZ material outside SZ will remain a violation of the RoC, with potential sanctions, so even if it is moved, there may be a penalty for having posted SZ material outside SZ in the first place.
4) No threats or illegal activity will be permitted in SZ. If someone threatens another participant or does something illegal, they will be suspended or barred from SZ. The bad post button in SZ is to be used only to report a threat or illegal activity. Note that what formerly may have constituted a personal attack may not be considered a threat, e.g., if someone calls you a sophomoric idiot, that is not a threat, but if they threaten to shoot you in your sophomoric head, that is. Inappropriate Bad Post reports will be treated as before, with repeated abuse of that function being a sanctionable offense.
5) We will evaluate the situation after 60 days have elapsed.
 
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Usually we'd post this under the MC account but I'm in the middle of setting this up and have IE logged in as tester...

Ability to rejoin will be available soon.
 
Is threatening to shoot someone in their pinky toe (or other "it's only a flesh wound" area) OK? ;)
 
Greebo said:
3) All SZ material in non-SZ threads will be deleted rather than being moved to SZ UNLESS the OP requests such a move by PM to the MC upon learning of the deletion. However, posting SZ material outside SZ will remain a violation of the RoC, with potential sanctions, so even if it is moved, there may be a penalty for having posted SZ material outside SZ in the first place.
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Is this actually going to happen now, or will the MC still delete all posts with a request to be moved to Spin Zone if the user's name is Skyhog?
 
By choosing to participate in the Spin Zone Participant usergroup and thus requesting to be granted access to the Spin Zone, User:
  • Agrees to abide by the Spin Zone Rules,
  • Warrants that s/he is age 18 or older,
  • Acknowledges that the Spin Zone is unmoderated and may contain material which offends User, and
  • Waives and releases any and all claims which User may have against Pilots of America and the Pilots of America Management Council, arising out of (1) User's participation in the Spin Zone or (2) the Pilots of America Management Council's administration of the Spin Zone.
 
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Greebo said:
As many of you know, POA MC members volunteer their time to the board. As many of you know (or should know), the Spin Zone has often been a huge drain on MC members' time and energy. Due to to the volunteer nature of the MC (read that we all have day jobs) we often don't have the time to respond as promptly as we would like to every bad post report, a vast majority of which emanate from Spin Zone. In the past we have closed Spin Zone for a cooling off period and even debated eliminating it entirely from the board.

We recognize however that SZ is an important part of the board to many participants .
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Instead of letting it go unmonitored, just close it for 60 days. Then extend the closing indefinitely.
 
wabower said:
Instead of letting it go unmonitored, just close it for 60 days. Then extend the closing indefinitely.
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That was considered, and remains on the table as one option after the 60-day test concludes should the SZ continue to be a pain in the MC's butt.
 
Nick,

Get over it. :rolleyes:

Will.

You're right. :p

Ron: thing is I fixed that date somewhere then copied the wrong version. :/
 
The new usergroup is now available to be joined. Please let me know if you have any issues with the functionality.
 
Greebo said:
Nick,

Get over it. :rolleyes:
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You know, if someone in the MC would either admit they did it, or at least give a reason why it was done, it'd be a lot easier to just "get over it." It gets old being singled out.
 
Ron Levy said:
That was considered, and remains on the table as one option after the 60-day test concludes should the SZ continue to be a pain in the MC's butt.
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I can't imagine why it lasted this long unless somebody was researching a way to bring out the worst in a group of people. Surely enough evidence has been accumulated by now.
 
Greebo said:
By choosing to participate in the Spin Zone Participant usergroup and thus requesting to be granted access to the Spin Zone, User:
  • Agrees to abide by the Spin Zone Rules,
  • Warrants that s/he is age 18 or older,
  • Acknowledges that the Spin Zone is unmoderated and may contain material which offends User, and
  • Waives and releases any and all claims which User may have against Pilots of America and the Pilots of America Management Council, arising out of (1) User's participation in the Spin Zone or (2) the Pilots of America Management Council's administration of the Spin Zone.
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Works for me.

Very minor glitch - there is a link in the CP says one should click on and read before joining 'cepen the link points to a post in the spin zone (same text as above) so one can't read it until after joining.
 
SkyHog said:
You know, if someone in the MC would either admit they did it, or at least give a reason why it was done, it'd be a lot easier to just "get over it." It gets old being singled out.
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If you can tell me which thread it was, I could figure that out, but to this day I have no clue what thread you're even talking about.

You weren't singled out. **** just happens sometimes. The persecution victim complex routine has worn its welcome out.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Works for me.

Very minor glitch - there is a link in the CP says one should click on and read before joining 'cepen the link points to a post in the spin zone (same text as above) so one can't read it until after joining.
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That should be fixed now, thanks.
 
Greebo said:
If you can tell me which thread it was, I could figure that out, but to this day I have no clue what thread you're even talking about.

You weren't singled out. **** just happens sometimes. The persecution victim complex routine has worn its welcome out.
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Its deleted. You know as well as I do that I cannot see posts that were deleted. The tread title was "Free Heathcare for all...." or something similar.

As for the victim complex? Easy solution. Treat me like the others here.
 
SkyHog said:
Its deleted. You know as well as I do that I cannot see posts that were deleted. The tread title was "Free Heathcare for all...." or something similar.

As for the victim complex? Easy solution. Treat me like the others here.
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Let me see if I can find a reference to it - we keep archives.

We'd love to treat you like the others here, but you seem to insist on singling yourself out.
 
On 1/8/2009 you posted a thread titled: Free Healthcare for All
I have restored the thread so all can see. I am attaching a screenshot of the thread as *I* saw it, when I found it.

As you can see, Ron's deletion notation says "request by poster".

Now if you read the thread, what you actually said was: "This should be in spin zone. My bad" which is not a request, just a statement of error on your part, open to interpretation.

My guess? Ron saw that and deleted it cause it was short, virtually empty, and in the wrong place. When it was deleted, I don't know, or care. It is hardly as if the thread were deeply involved.

If there's more to it than that, please let me know what, because there was no Discussion about it - it was a minor act any moderator can make. The only error on Ron's part I see was that he didn't report the thread himself indicating that he was deleting it, which, had he done, we'd have all gotten emails about and looked at it and yawned.

Put it to frickin bed already!
 

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Greebo said:
On 1/8/2009 you posted a thread titled: Free Healthcare for All
I have restored the thread so all can see. I am attaching a screenshot of the thread as *I* saw it, when I found it.

As you can see, Ron's deletion notation says "request by poster".

Now if you read the thread, what you actually said was: "This should be in spin zone. My bad" which is not a request, just a statement of error on your part, open to interpretation.

My guess? Ron saw that and deleted it cause it was short, virtually empty, and in the wrong place. When it was deleted, I don't know, or care. It is hardly as if the thread were deeply involved.

If there's more to it than that, please let me know what, because there was no Discussion about it - it was a minor act any moderator can make. The only error on Ron's part I see was that he didn't report the thread himself indicating that he was deleting it, which, had he done, we'd have all gotten emails about and looked at it and yawned.

Put it to frickin bed already!
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Thank you. That's all I ask. You could come over and kick Piper in the mouth if you gave a decent answer for his mouth needed kicking*. Its being kept in the dark that irritates me.

The amount of time Ron saved by deleting the thread instead of moving it could have easily been spent telling me "Nick, your thread was deleted instead of moved. Next time post in the proper forum."

*Please don't kick Piper in the mouth. His birthday is next week.
 
Greebo said:
On 1/8/2009 you posted a thread titled: Free Healthcare for All
I have restored the thread so all can see. I am attaching a screenshot of the thread as *I* saw it, when I found it.

As you can see, Ron's deletion notation says "request by poster".

Now if you read the thread, what you actually said was: "This should be in spin zone. My bad" which is not a request, just a statement of error on your part, open to interpretation.

My guess? Ron saw that and deleted it cause it was short, virtually empty, and in the wrong place. When it was deleted, I don't know, or care. It is hardly as if the thread were deeply involved.

If there's more to it than that, please let me know what, because there was no Discussion about it - it was a minor act any moderator can make. The only error on Ron's part I see was that he didn't report the thread himself indicating that he was deleting it, which, had he done, we'd have all gotten emails about and looked at it and yawned.

Put it to frickin bed already!
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I don't understand. That thread still exisited in the SZ
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26608&highlight=free+healthcare
 
SkyHog said:
Thank you. That's all I ask. You could come over and kick Piper in the mouth if you gave a decent answer for his mouth needed kicking*. Its being kept in the dark that irritates me.

The amount of time Ron saved by deleting the thread instead of moving it could have easily been spent telling me "Nick, your thread was deleted instead of moved. Next time post in the proper forum."

*Please don't kick Piper in the mouth. His birthday is next week.
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The amount of time Nick saved by deleting all of his own posts after spending a lot of time PMming the MC about having them deleted could have easily been spent asking the MC, "Hey, where'd my thread go?"

At what point did you ASK one of us where your thread went, Nick? Cause you never asked me. The first hint I got from you was your request to have all your posts deleted. I did a search on your posts between 1/8 and 1/11 - there are none asking a simple enough question. You basically went from "oops i goofed" on the thread to "I'M PERSECUTED DELETE ME COMPLETELY" mode in 0.3 seconds from what I can tell.

If you're going to point fingers, check the ones pointing back at yourself. You know damn well we're all busy, and human, here on the Mountain of the MC Gods. Sometimes things slip our minds. The thread's content hasn't been worth all the drama you've created over what could have been JUST as easily cleared up by you asking me one SIMPLE question.
 
Greebo said:
The amount of time Nick saved by deleting all of his own posts after spending a lot of time PMming the MC about having them deleted could have easily been spent asking the MC, "Hey, where'd my thread go?"

At what point did you ASK one of us where your thread went, Nick? Cause you never asked me. The first hint I got from you was your request to have all your posts deleted. I did a search on your posts between 1/8 and 1/11 - there are none asking a simple enough question. You basically went from "oops i goofed" on the thread to "I'M PERSECUTED DELETE ME COMPLETELY" mode in 0.3 seconds from what I can tell.

If you're going to point fingers, check the ones pointing back at yourself. You know damn well we're all busy, and human, here on the Mountain of the MC Gods. Sometimes things slip our minds. The thread's content hasn't been worth all the drama you've created over what could have been JUST as easily cleared up by you asking me one SIMPLE question.
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Listen here, Chuck, until now, this was not a publicly discussed matter out of respect for the actions of the MC, but if you're going to go public with a request, lets go public with it (by the way, I was trying to be civil, joking, and understandable).

I asked you to delete my posts because its obvious that the MC can't deal with me fairly. In my first response to your statement of "no." was the reasoning, INCLUDING the deletion of this thread. You then starting spouting BS about me suing you, which I never, ever mentioned. I inferred that it was a PI issue, and that you may be using my works without permission, and you turned into a little sissy like you did with MAG over lawsuits. Now I see why you caved so quickly to him.

Then, again, you decided to take your powers and run, ending with "We have nothing further to discuss" after telling you, SPECIFICALLY, that was not threatening lawsuit.

Get over it, leave the MC already if you're that jaded, Chuck, but have some freaking respect for your members.

And I'm sorry if this is coming off angrily, Chuck, but your above post AGAIN violates the PoA ROC that you are supposed to be upholding. That's at least 3 times you've done this. Funny how that works.

Edit: Now, if you want to go back to upholding the ROC, I'd suggest deleting this post and your post and calling me at (505)610-0794 if you want to discuss this any further.
 
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Oy vay! We can't even have a civil thread about this??????????

Sigh. Better go sign back into SZ while it's still there.:frown3:
 
Oh boy, unmoderated!!!! What fun!!! Can I swear? Can I call someone a fartheaded son of lizard dribblings?
 
SkyHog said:
Listen here, Chuck, until now, this was not a publicly discussed matter out of respect for the actions of the MC, but if you're going to go public with a request, lets go public with it (by the way, I was trying to be civil, joking, and understandable).
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With a criticism that just as equally should have been applied to yourself.

I asked you to delete my posts because its obvious that the MC can't deal with me fairly.
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I think we've been rather more than fair with you to date.

In my first response to your statement of "no." was the reasoning, INCLUDING the deletion of this thread.
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Very vaguely worded, and drowned out by this statement:
"So I'd hate to see this become an intellectual property dispute,"

Intellectual property dispute sounds to me like legal action, which is why I asked you for clarification on that, and that was the ONLY thing I asked about at that point. What I said was,
Nick, I want to be perfectly clear here in this question:

Are you threatening us with legal action if your posts aren't removed?
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Because that is how it came across to me.

You then starting spouting BS about me suing you, which I never, ever mentioned.
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No, you didn't, and no, neither did I. I asked for clarification in the perception of a possible legal threat, and that was it.

I inferred that it was a PI issue, and that you may be using my works without permission, and you turned into a little sissy like you did with MAG over lawsuits. Now I see why you caved so quickly to him.
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Lets see...user posts here freely, vs. owner of copyrighted material complains over its reproduction here w/o his permission. See a difference?

Then, again, you decided to take your powers and run, ending with "We have nothing further to discuss" after telling you, SPECIFICALLY, that was not threatening lawsuit.
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What I said, Nick, was:
OK Nick, I don't think you and I have anything further we can say to each other that will do anything but aggravate each other at this point.

SO - the MC is aware of your requests. I will argue against deletion, for the reasons already stated. I'm not forwarding your latest PM to me to the MC because honestly, I think you're doing yourself a disservice with your comments. You are, IMO, making yourself look bad.
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To the best of my knowledge, our communication with you has always been civil and respectful and I have yet to see any indication of bias other than that you and Ron don't get along. News flash - Ron stays out of any matter concerning you because he knows he's biased, just as I've stayed out of them when Slap is concerned cause I know *I* am biased.

Get over it, leave the MC already if you're that jaded, Chuck, but have some freaking respect for your members.
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I'm fed up with your constant attacks on the MC - after all the things you've said about us in the past, and restated here, what respect *should* I have?

And I'm sorry if this is coming off angrily, Chuck, but your above post AGAIN violates the PoA ROC that you are supposed to be upholding. That's at least 3 times you've done this. Funny how that works.
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Why? There was no disciplinary action to begin with. A thread was deleted at what was perceived *your request*. You've made enough public complaints about the MC and persecution that you can hardly claim victimhood on this matter.

I'm sick and tired of you flying off the handle, and then turning around and blaming us for your actions.
 
ive never been in the spin zone, is this what its like all the time? I thought we had had a bit of rough and tumble in non SZ land lately. yipes.
 
Nah, I got into trouble for swearing (got it past the filters). I only asked about the lizard dribblings because I thought it sounded funny.
 
Greebo said:
I'm fed up with your constant attacks on the MC - after all the things you've said about us in the past, and restated here, what respect *should* I have?
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Show me one place where I've "attacked" the MC, and I'll apologize publicly for it. I have called out specific actions of the MC, and I've disagreed with the MC, but for the most part, I've always respected the MC, as they are here to uphold the RoC. It is specific actions of certain members of the MC that I take issue with.

Its no secret that Ron Levy and I have beefs, and its also no surprise that he was the one that deleted that thread. I'm ecstatic to hear that he has kept his hand out of all decisions involving me, because that restores a LOT of faith in the decisions made. I'm even more ecstatic that for the first time, his actions are being recognized publicly.

The biggest thing came from being suspended due to a post I made, which in all honesty, was not that bad of a post, while others, including yourself, had posted in the thread with similar, or worse statements without punishment. I don't see how that can't be construed as "singling out."

Why? There was no disciplinary action to begin with. A thread was deleted at what was perceived *your request*. You've made enough public complaints about the MC and persecution that you can hardly claim victimhood on this matter.
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The RoC states, specifically:
"Private Messages received on these Forums are to be considered private and are not to be posted publicly unless the sender of the private message agrees."

That is the basis for me not mentioning specifics until you brought them out.
I'm sick and tired of you flying off the handle, and then turning around and blaming us for your actions.
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My actions? You mean accidentally posting a thread in the wrong forum and having it deleted, despite my followup post which reads "Oops, my bad, this should have been in spin zone?"

Or perhaps you're referring to my post in which I inferred that the MC needs to be more transparent before asking for money from the public?

I'm not quite sure which action you're referring to here, but I am quite sure that at least 1 member of the MC would be just fine seeing my reputation tarnished beyond repair. I had been convinced that I was imagining it, but the way you've turned this thread, I don't know that I was wrong anymore.
 
tonycondon said:
ive never been in the spin zone, is this what its like all the time? I thought we had had a bit of rough and tumble in non SZ land lately. yipes.
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No it is not like this in SZ. The arguments there are far more mature than any of the arguments I have seen outside of the SZ.

What you have been seeing outside of SZ lately has been way worse than anything in SZ. The only real tie it gets ugly in the SZ is when someone comes in and is unable to support their arguments, spouts boorish platittudes of a talk radio nature, or comes in saying something like 'all liberals or conservatives are a bunch of jerks hell bent on destroying America'. When the broad brush painting goes on, people on challenged on it.

Newbies make that mistake a lot and get called on it. If they figure out that they were out of bounds then they get accepted and debate continues. If not they leave the SZ with a spaniking from the SZ members and then complain about what a 'horrible place' it is to everyone outside of the SZ.

In the SZ things do get ger heated. I am not trying to deny that. Occasionly a time out is needed to let things cool down. It is no worse than and in many way lots better than, other places. For the most part we jab each other in ways we know to get a rise for fun. Only a few people take that personally. They are also the ones that seem to have the most issues, go figure.
 
I'll agree with Nick on the one point that a little "We're doing this and here's exactly why" goes a long, long way, but I believe that particular issue was corrected as a matter of policy a while ago. The MC deserves credit for that decision, as I think it's just the Right Thing To Do(tm).

Anyway, about de-moderating the SZ? I think it's worth a shot...
 
smigaldi said:
No it is not like this in SZ. The arguments there are far more mature than any of the arguments I have seen outside of the SZ.

What you have been seeing outside of SZ lately has been way worse than anything in SZ. The only real tie it gets ugly in the SZ is when someone comes in and is unable to support their arguments, spouts boorish platittudes of a talk radio nature, or comes in saying something like 'all liberals or conservatives are a bunch of jerks hell bent on destroying America'. When the broad brush painting goes on, people on challenged on it.

Newbies make that mistake a lot and get called on it. If they figure out that they were out of bounds then they get accepted and debate continues. If not they leave the SZ with a spaniking from the SZ members and then complain about what a 'horrible place' it is to everyone outside of the SZ.

In the SZ things do get ger heated. I am not trying to deny that. Occasionly a time out is needed to let things cool down. It is no worse than and in many way lots better than, other places. For the most part we jab each other in ways we know to get a rise for fun. Only a few people take that personally. They are also the ones that seem to have the most issues, go figure.
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I actually enjoy most SZ debates. From time to time, they get out of control, but you'll see the same people, over and over, losing control.

Politics ain't for everyone. Those that enjoy it would probably have a good time in the SZ, if they are intelligent in the way they argue:

Bush is an abomination of creation (bad).
Bush made a huge mistake by doing x, y, z. (good).

The first will usually get called out as being a stupid argument. The second will usually be debated logically by someone of a differing opinion.
 
smigaldi said:
No it is not like this in SZ. The arguments there are far more mature than any of the arguments I have seen outside of the SZ.

What you have been seeing outside of SZ lately has been way worse than anything in SZ. The only real tie it gets ugly in the SZ is when someone comes in and is unable to support their arguments, spouts boorish platittudes of a talk radio nature, or comes in saying something like 'all liberals or conservatives are a bunch of jerks hell bent on destroying America'. When the broad brush painting goes on, people on challenged on it.

Newbies make that mistake a lot and get called on it. If they figure out that they were out of bounds then they get accepted and debate continues. If not they leave the SZ with a spaniking from the SZ members and then complain about what a 'horrible place' it is to everyone outside of the SZ.

In the SZ things do get ger heated. I am not trying to deny that. Occasionly a time out is needed to let things cool down. It is no worse than and in many way lots better than, other places. For the most part we jab each other in ways we know to get a rise for fun. Only a few people take that personally. They are also the ones that seem to have the most issues, go figure.
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Exactly... And I think that's really the biggest point: If people think the SZ is somewhere where they can just waltz in an post some hyperbolic partisan propaganda or baseless ranting for fun or self-satisfaction, I think they're likely to wind up quite disappointed with the results and maybe walk out with their ego bruised a little. And I think that isn't limited to either "side" of the spectrum either.

Anyway, I also agree that, yeah, there are a lot nastier arguments that happen outside SZ.
 
SkyHog said:
I actually enjoy most SZ debates. From time to time, they get out of control, but you'll see the same people, over and over, losing control.

Politics ain't for everyone. Those that enjoy it would probably have a good time in the SZ, if they are intelligent in the way they argue:

Bush is an abomination of creation (bad).
Bush made a huge mistake by doing x, y, z. (good).

The first will usually get called out as being a stupid argument. The second will usually be debated logically by someone of a differing opinion.
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Exactly. Much better stated than what I just tried to say, too. :yes:
 
well im glad to hear that. maybe the MC's moderator time could be better utilized outside SZ, and you political dudes can continue to moderate yourself. happy arguing :)
 
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