New Pilot -- Should I Buy a Cheetah or Hold Out For A Tiger?

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WVTexan

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WVTexan
Hello!

I am a new pilot and looking for my first plane. I run a small company and most of my "missions" are less than 150nm. I really like the Grumman planes and they can be had for relatively cheap compared to the Cessna or Piper peers.

Tigers seem to be hard to find locally - but I did find a Cheetah pretty close at what seems to be a pretty fair price. I know the Tiger is faster and holds a little more so I'm torn on whether to snag the nice Cheetah or hold out for a Tiger.

I am new, so I am not too worried about going 15kts slower...probably better for me right now anyhow and it will only make a 5-10 minute difference anyhow. Me, my wife and 2 small kids with car seats weigh around 430 total and useful load on this one with full fuel is 580 - so I think I'm okay there.

What are your thoughts and experience? Am I safe to buy a Cheetah, get IFR and build 200 hours then sell -- or will I get bored before then and wish I would have waited for a Tiger?

Thanks!!!
WVTexan
 
No doubt, if a Tiger is what you really want and can afford - hold out for the Tiger.
 
If you want a Tiger, get a Tiger. We both know you'll sell the Cheetah and get a Tiger. :) Buying a plane, keeping it for 200hrs, selling it, then upgrading can be an expensive endeavor.
 
Agreement from another former Cheetah owner now flying a Tiger. Prices on Tigers are low enough now that it's a lot easier to get the one you want. Note that the difference in ownership cost after purchase is insignificant.

One option on which I urge extreme caution is buying a Cheetah with the intention of Tigerizing it later with the engine/prop/spar swap STC from Maynard Crosby. Yes, it may be a good option if you have a really cream-puff Cheetah with far more money invested in avionics, paint, interior, etc. than you'd ever get out of it in a sale, and it's just the way you want your plane to be, but not otherwise (BTDT with my "Cheeger").
 
WVTexan said:
I am new, so I am not too worried about going 15kts slower...
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Cheetahs aren't really that much slower unless you throttle back the Cheetah and really push the Tiger. At the same altitude and %HP setting, the difference is more like 10 knots.

probably better for me right now anyhow and it will only make a 5-10 minute difference anyhow. Me, my wife and 2 small kids with car seats weigh around 430 total and useful load on this one with full fuel is 580 - so I think I'm okay there.
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If the full fuel payload is 580, you must be looking at one of the few built with the "standard" fuel tanks of 38 gal total/37 gal usable like the Travelers had. I don't think you'll find any Cheetahs which weigh in at only 1314 lb empty -- 1400 is more typical. With that situation, you're going to have a lot harder time trading fuel for payload as the kids get bigger, but you should still have eight years or so before it's a problem.

What are your thoughts and experience? Am I safe to buy a Cheetah, get IFR and build 200 hours then sell -- or will I get bored before then and wish I would have waited for a Tiger?
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If you only plan to put 200 hours on it (maybe two years?) and you can afford the Cheetah now but would have to wait that long for a Tiger, I say go for the Cheetah now. And yes, with proper type checkout from an AYA PFP Instructor, you should have no problem flying a Cheetah safely now and getting your IR in it.

For a lot more on Grummans, see:
http://www.aya.org
http://www.grumman.net
 
I've owned an AA5 Traveler and an AA5B Tiger.

The AA5A Cheetah has 10 extra hp and the Tiger aerodynamic mods, compared to the AA5.

Still, I think the additional climb rate of the Tiger makes it a better choice, even if speed is not a major concern. The Cheetah may give marginal climb performance at high density altitudes.

You can always slow down in the Tiger and sip fuel at Cheetah rates, but not vice versa.

Wait for the right Tiger, would be my advice.
 
FastEddieB said:
The AA5A Cheetah has 10 extra hp and the Tiger aerodynamic mods, compared to the AA5.
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The second part is correct, but the first is not. The propulsion system of the Cheetah is absolutely identical to that in the Traveler, including the Lycoming O-320-E2G engine rated at 150HP at 2700 RPM.

What Eddie may be thinking of is the Precision Engine High Compression STC available for both the Traveler and the Cheetah. This STC allows the O-320-E2G to crank out more power at the same RPM due to higher compression pistons. That gives you the performance a 160HP engine. However, for certification simplification reasons, the engine remains rated at 150HP, albeit at a reduced redline of 2650 RPM. So, you get the same takeoff and climb performance as you would if you hung a 160HP O-320-D engine on the nose with the same prop even though the modified O-320-E2G remains rated at 150HP. This is a very popular STC on both Travelers and Cheetahs -- I believe nearly half the fleet now has it. Only bad news is that it has no effect on max gross weight (although it doesn't increase empty weight, either).

For more on this STC, see:
http://precisionengine.home.mindspring.com/4plstc.htm

Still, I think the additional climb rate of the Tiger makes it a better choice, even if speed is not a major concern. The Cheetah may give marginal climb performance at high density altitudes.

You can always slow down in the Tiger and sip fuel at Cheetah rates, but not vice versa.
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Agreed on those points, but I'd still say buy the Cheetah now if you'd have to wait very long for the Tiger.
 
You have already decided,your just looking for peer support. Buy the tiger , you will be happier in the long run,probably have a better resale value,when you want to move up.
 
No one was ever happy they bought the slower one with the smaller engine. (whether planes, cars, or boats).

The costs to step up are significant. I am wishing I had bought the Comanche I was thinking about instead of the Cherokee. I can't justify the loss in invested money starting over with a new airframe and the first two years of expenses, the sales taxes, etc, for less than a 40 knot increase is speed.
You will be in the same boat, it will never make sense to eat the change costs to trade a Cheetah for a Tiger.
 
Ron Levy said:
The second part is correct, but the first is not. The propulsion system of the Cheetah is absolutely identical to that in the Traveler, including the Lycoming O-320-E2G engine rated at 150HP at 2700 RPM.
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I stand corrected.

I could have sworn they had 160hp.

Anyway, this was my Tiger, based out of N Perry Airport in Hollywood, FL:

10840771623_6d250761ed_c.jpg


Great little plane.
 
Ron Levy said:
However, for certification simplification reasons, the engine remains rated at 150HP, albeit at a reduced redline of 2650 RPM.
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Ron, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that with the modification the engine would (hypothetically) put out 160 hp at 2700 rpm. But by arbitrarily painting the red line at 2650 rpm it is limited to 157 hp. 157 hp is less than 5% more than the original 150 hp, and 5% is the fudge factor the FAA allows to avoid recertification.

If the full fuel payload is 580, you must be looking at one of the few built with the "standard" fuel tanks of 38 gal total/37 gal usable like the Travelers had. I don't think you'll find any Cheetahs which weigh in at only 1314 lb empty -- 1400 is more typical.
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Indeed. My '78 Cheetah -- also one of those with the 38-gallon "Traveler tanks", HC STC, and just about everything else original, had an empty weight of 1399 lb.
 
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WVTexan said:
Hello!

-- or will I get bored before then and wish I would have waited for a Tiger?

Thanks!!!
WVTexan
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I had a Tiger for about 5 years. Great all around airplane. Speed's within a few knots of an Arrow without the CS prop and folding gear. The castoring
nose wheel may take a little getting used to .. but is great in crosswind landings .. you don't have to worry about straightening out the rudders before setting the nose down. I thought it was an easy plane to land. I'd get a checkout from a qualified CFI with some experience in them.

I'd just go with the Tiger up front .. unless financing is an issue.

RT
 
Pilawt said:
Ron, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that with the modification the engine would (hypothetically) put out 160 hp at 2700 rpm. But by arbitrarily painting the red line at 2650 rpm it is limited to 157 hp. 157 hp is less than 5% more than the original 150 hp, and 5% is the fudge factor the FAA allows to avoid recertification.
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All correct.
 
I don't think 150 nm is enough distance to justify flying. Your time savings are going to be marginal if anything. However, I would buy the plane just for fun.
 
cirrusmx said:
I don't think 150 nm is enough distance to justify flying. Your time savings are going to be marginal if anything.
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Depends greatly on the available roads. The 150nm straight-line distance might require driving 200 miles, and without interstates it could easily take four hours. If you live and work near airports, a 1:10 flight could easily save you two hours, which would A) be a lot more enjoyable and B) allow you to fit a roundtrip into a normal workday.[/quote]

However, I would buy the plane just for fun.
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:yeahthat:
 
cirrusmx said:
I don't think 150 nm is enough distance to justify flying.
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It's pretty much impossible to "justify" buying a personal airplane on any sort of resource allocation basis. However...
...I would buy the plane just for fun.
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..."fun" and "convenience" are, when you have the resources to trade for that fun and convenience.
 
Ron Levy said:
All correct.
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By the same token, the same modification to the same engine in a Cherokee 140 or 150 can legally be called "160 hp", with no requirement to limit to 2650 rpm/157 hp. Reason being, Piper had already certified the airframe for 160 hp back in 1961 (PA-28-160 was the first Cherokee to be certified). Grumman-American, on the other hand, never certified the AA-5x for 160 hp. Bill & Carol Scott, who own the high-compression STC, don't have the resources to do the full testing and certification protocol themselves, so the modified Cheetah is artificially limited to 157 hp to conform to the original specs.
 
Pilawt said:
Grumman-American, on the other hand, never certified the AA-5x for 160 hp. Bill & Carol Scott, who own the high-compression STC, don't have the resources to do the full testing and certification protocol themselves, so the modified Cheetah is artificially limited to 157 hp to conform to the original specs.
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Again, all correct. IIRC, Bill told me the difference was like $30K worth of DER support and flight testing. And the plane would fly just the same regardless of what the paperwork would say. Only thing given up is about 2.4 knots of potential cruise speed at altitudes high enough that 75% power is over 2650 RPM but not so high the engine can't turn over 2650 at full throttle -- a pretty narrow band. And you can get that back by trading the stock 59-pitch McCauley prop for the STC'd bevel-tip 61-pitch Sensenich prop -- with no trade in takeoff/climb performance thanks to the reduced profile and tip drag of the Sensenich prop.
 
FlyGirlKHWO said:
Well, I'm partial... this 1979 Tiger is my first plane, and I hope to have it a long time!

SEnz0AA.jpghttp:
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Wow, that is a beautiful Tiger, congrats! I have a bunch of time in the Cheetah and a friend has a Traveller with the 160hp-not 160hp STC - great little planes.

'Gimp
 
AcroGimp said:
Wow, that is a beautiful Tiger, congrats! I have a bunch of time in the Cheetah and a friend has a Traveller with the 160hp-not 160hp STC - great little planes.

'Gimp
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Thanks, Gimp! I'm taking her out for my first real x-c next month, and excited to see how she performs at higher altitudes than I've been flying locally.
This baby has really sweet avionics, too-- Aspen PFD and a Garmin 650, IFR certified... not that I can fly IFR yet! Maybe next year, we'll see if the $$ hold out!
 
FastEddieB said:
I stand corrected.

I could have sworn they had 160hp.

Anyway, this was my Tiger, based out of N Perry Airport in Hollywood, FL:

10840771623_6d250761ed_c.jpg


Great little plane.
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Hi, Eddie, I'm at KHWO, too! Never seen you, are on the north side of the field? (I'm at Hollywood aviation in the plane ports.)
 
FlyGirlKHWO said:
Hi, Eddie, I'm at KHWO, too! Never seen you, are on the north side of the field? (I'm at Hollywood aviation in the plane ports.)
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Changes.

Sold the Tiger in 2003, bought a 2003 Cirrus SR22 demo.

Moved to North Georgia around 2006. Sold the Cirrus, bought a Sky Arrow, flying now sans medical as a Sport Pilot. Based at Copperhill, TN (1A3).

Used to own the Gold's Gym at Taft & Douglas.

Is Haim Molcho still the owner of Hollywood Aviation?
 
AcroGimp said:
I have a bunch of time in the Cheetah and a friend has a Traveller with the 160hp-not 160hp STC
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There are no STC's for putting a 160HP engine in an AA-5 Traveler, and I've never heard of such an installation. Did your friend get that on a field approval? Which engine did he install? And what was involved in getting it approved? Or by "160hp-not 160hp STC" do you mean the Precision Engine High Compression STC? That phrase sort of confuses me.
 
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Hey all - tons of awesome info! I really do think that the Tiger is a better plane but, I went against the boards overall opinion...don't be upset.

Cap'n Ron:
I put an offer in and it was accepted on a Cheetah. The big determining factor is that I don't see any (literally) Tigers out there with at least a 430 in them for under $50k (unless SMOH is 1,999...) which is a budget I set for myself.

I found a great Cheetah with low hours and a 430 in it for just under $40k and that makes me feel a little better on the budget. I want to fly for fun, gain experience and my IFR. After 2-3 years I will sell it and I don't think I'll "lose" much as these planes have pretty much reached their maximum depreciation point.

PilotAlan:
My next plane will hopefully be a twin - but again, I'll be on a budget so I'm probably looking at the DA-42 and then if our new company keeps doing well, everyone stays healthy and we don't get attacked by nuclear weapons - I'll upgrade to a larger twin.

campoalavista:
I agree that 150nm is barely on the edge of making it "worth it" - but that is a 180mile drive over the mountains and into Northern Virginia...where they have this annoying thing called "traffic" that can easily add 1 hour to your journey. It is 3.5-4.5 hour drive every time I go (one way) and it will be around 1.5 hours of flying time.


Thanks all - I'll let you know when the deal is done and I'll post a few pictures!
 
Ron Levy said:
There are no STC's for putting a 160HP engine in an AA-5 Traveler, and I've never heard of such an installation. Did your friend get that on a field approval? Which engine did he install? And what was involved in getting it approved? Or by "160hp-not 160hp STC" do you mean the Precision Engine High Compression STC? That phrase sort of confuses me.
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Does it really matter, or are you just playing " gotcha"?
 
Hi
I have owned a cheetah my first plane now I own a tiger. Maybe I missed it but speed is not the big advantage but CLIMB performace is much better about 200 ft more per minute. Safer if loaded also. I loved my cheetah but love Tiger more... PS your Kids will grow faster than you can believe!
 
My three favorite SE airplanes are:

1. AA5B Tiger. I want one bad, but there are few nice ones available right now. Lots of fond memories flying with the canopy open...
2. 1976-78 Cessna 177RG Cardinal RG. I did all my commercial SE flying and lots of cross country fun flying and I love the visibility and speed.
3. Bellanca Super Viking. Duh, yeah, it's awesome!
 
Tiger is the way to go. Great plane I’ve put over 300 hours on mine in the last two years.

What’s your budget for one ?
 

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After 5 years I wonder if the deal was done. If so did he sell it after 2 or 3 years and get into a twin?
 
SkyDog58 said:
You all are so wrong. I have watched a lot of Nat Geo, Wild Kingdom, etc. Cheetahs are faster than Tigers.
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This quote has been neglected and underrated for years now . I’m giving you the credit you deserve
 
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