New Pilot in Training

S

SharksFan

Guest
Introduction.......I have been lingering for a while gaining all sorts of info... But now that my official training has started I have registered so I can seek advice and share experiences. I am 40 year old student pilot. This is not a bucket list thing...but a long time desire that got overcome by College, Expenses, Grad. School, Marriage, Kids, Career, etc. Now is the time. Two years ago I started studying and got medical and tried to fully understand process and was ready to take written, but then got a work assignment that required expensive travel. So I coninued to study and fast forward to June 2011, and I have passed my written and re-upped my medical and currently have a whole 5.1 hours dual in a 150 in last two weeks.

First observation. I studied really hard to get written done and medical so I could be prepared to just fly. I studied and really learned rather than just memorized. I think I took every test and read at least 10 books that said the same thing ten slightly different ways......but actual flying is more difficult than anticipated...and more frustrating.

I am usually a very quick learner, study, review and prepare extensively. But even after having 5.1 hours, just ground handling, braking and steering with feet, and not hands is really frustrating. No doubt getting more comfortable, but really frustating I cant just get in plane and practice on parking lot until I master it.

So, in 5.1 hours, I still have some ground handling/braking issues..perfectly straight on line not mastered yet. My hands tend to follow my feet on controls...I have basics in straight in level, climbs and decents, and turns...also basic in slow flight, power on stall, and power off stall. Flown to two other airports and basically do all preflight, run up and take offs..working landings and radio....all untowered and will do all radio next flight. Try to fly at least 2 times a week, this week 3 times.

CFI says I am doing fine but I am really frustrated with ground handling. Seems like I should be doing better....kind of hard to work other areas if that is always in your head!

Any words of encouagement or suggestions? Next flight, we review all
manuevers and will go to contolled airport and I will do radio work... Sorry for being long winded.....
 
I've noticed older students tend to overthink the tasks in the airplane. Look at it as driving a tractor, not a sports car. Pick a spot on the cowl and hold that line to stay straight on the taxiway. Works in the air, too.
 
Steve said:
I've noticed older students tend to overthink the tasks in the airplane.
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I've also noticed that older students, especially ones who have been successful in their careers or other parts of life, expect flying to come pretty easily because they are used to being accomplished at what they do. This is a bit unrealistic as flying is a completely different skill for most people.
 
SharksFan said:
My hands tend to follow my feet on controls...
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Have you tried sitting on your hands while you taxi? If it's windy enough that the controls need to be positioned your CFI can do that.

Welcome to POA!
 
I read these boards a lot and it seems like every student has at least 1 thing they feel like thing they cannot quite 'get'. Hang in there, it'll come to you.
 
Welcome out of "lurker" status!

It's a totally new skill, and you'll need to be patient. It will come, though, and after a while you won't even think about it, as there will be lots of other things to think about! :)
 
Everskyward said:
I've also noticed that older students, especially ones who have been successful in their careers or other parts of life, expect flying to come pretty easily because they are used to being accomplished at what they do. This is a bit unrealistic as flying is a completely different skill for most people.
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+1...
 
Steve said:
I've noticed older students tend to overthink the tasks in the airplane..
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Not just in the airplane but conceptually too. I remember during a ground lesson telling my CFI I wanted to better understand the lift equation. He said it would cost me. I said that doesn't matter. 2 hours later and we are barely touching on downwash.

He was struggling a bit but overall did a good job answering my many questions.
 
Steering with your feet isn't natural for a while. You also don't typically get much taxi time at small airports which maximizes your rental time, but eventually it will click. Especially when you get a few nice long two mile taxi clearances at some big airport someday. ;)

Agreed with the "sit on your hands" trick. It works to break the brain connections to using the hands to "steer".

Another method is what Doc did. Buy a taildragger!!! ;)

Wear comfortable shoes. Whatever works for you to feel like you have "light" feet.

And remember that in a C-150 there's a bungee cord doing the work. The pedals are not directly connected to the nosegear steering so there's a delay from when you press the pedal down to when the "tree"/bungee actually pulls on the nosewheel.

Like old manual steering cars there's not enough force to turn the wheel until you're rolling forward either, so you have to give it a little pressure the direction you want to go and wait until you're rolling to see where it ends up pointing. You may have to "dance" a little to get the rate of turn that you want, or to hold the centerline.

How big are your feet? Others with long feet have voiced frustration that they find it hard to slide their feet down enough to get their toes off of the toe brakes.

Also make sure your seat is far enough forward that you can easily push both pedals one at a time all the way to the floor without feeling like you're "reaching". How tall are you?

You shouldn't have to touch the pedals at all really, to go straight if there's no wind to weathervane the tail and the aircraft's rudder system is rigged correctly.

Many 30+ year old Cessnas have had mechanics tighten only one turnbuckle to tighten up rudder cables over the years instead of checking things are straight, so they constantly track one way or the other with feet off the pedals. If your trainer is that way, you'll learn to leave a little pressure on one foot to go straight.

Don't over-think it. Step on the pedal on the side you want the nose to "yaw" toward. That mental process will come in handy later in-flight too. When you run out of pedal, start applying the toe-brake to tighten the turn if needed.

Think "shopping cart with wings and tail that catch the wind, with a bungee cord to steer" and you'll have the concept of the level of technology underneath you. LOL! :D

It's a sailboat with a bungee cord to steer with. Ungainly and slow to respond in harbor at low speed, but handling great once the sails are flying and you're underway.

Hopefully one of those metaphors helps.

If you're the engineering type and want more detail, Google "Whiffletree". The rudder on the tail is directly connected to your feet via cables, but the nosegear on a Cessna trainer is attached to a whiffletree. Not directly to the pedals.

Some trainers truly do have "shopping cart" nosewheels. They only turn when you apply a brake on one side. The Cessna's ponderous arrangement is an attempt to avoid that even though it's not bad, but it's slow to respond. Sometimes the propeller blast over the tail and rudder is doing part of the work too so power changes (more of it) are involved too.

Congrats on getting started again! It'll come pretty quick.

After you have a few "firm" landings under your belt, you'll wonder how that wimpy-looking landing gear even takes all of that abuse you're bound to dish out, too.

Usually your instructor will look over at you after you bounce one on and say something like, "Are you going to log all three of those landings, Captain Kangaroo?" ;)
 
I started learning at 44. I spent much of my growing up years building and flying model airplanes and reading everything I could get my hands on about flying. I've spent serious, quality time in sims (real sims, not just PC sims). The ground handling didn't come naturally to me either.

But, at the same time I was learning to fly I was teaching my oldest son to drive. It was a _great_ reminder of all that I do in driving a car that I haven't thought about in decades. I expected flying to be like that (not consciously, but at some level). It's not. It will be later after you put in enough time but a t first it's not.

It sounds like you are doing fine. Have patience.

John
 
I started at age 42 and was frustrated by taxing too. Maybe its an age thing.

A couple of things that helped me:

- Don't focus on the center (yellow) line right in front of the nose, you'll just chase it. Focus a hundred or so yards down the taxiway.

- Keep your heels on the floor unless braking.

- When you're pivoting the plane in a tight turn, apply full up elevator (yoke back).

Mostly, don't worry about it. It will get better on its own.
 
Yup. Doing fine. 5.1 hours? That's roughly 5 lessons? With each lesson only having a few minutes of taxi practice, it may take a while to get comfortable overcoming 24 years of previous experience controlling a vehicle on the ground (*every* single student I've started has tried to "drive" the airplane while taxing).

If it's a concern, have a lesson completely dedicated to taxi operations. Practice turns, brake-assisted turns, parking, cross-wind inputs, etc. Set goals. At first just keep the yellow line between the mains. Eventually, you'll keep the nose wheel on the line without even thinking about it.

Welcome to the most funnest way to spend your kids college money!
 
My instructor told me that in the first part of instruction, basically nothing is academic. You have the idea of how the airplane flies in the air, and you know what to do (ex speeds to fly, flap settings etc) but when training and practicing landings, taxi, takeoffs, you are basically learning motor skills, like throwing a baseball. And the only way to learn motor skills is repetitive practice! Some folks will learn slower than others based on age or other personality factors, but with practice, you will learn.
 
dell30rb said:
My instructor told me that in the first part of instruction, basically nothing is academic. You have the idea of how the airplane flies in the air, and you know what to do (ex speeds to fly, flap settings etc) but when training and practicing landings, taxi, takeoffs, you are basically learning motor skills, like throwing a baseball. And the only way to learn motor skills is repetitive practice! Some folks will learn slower than others based on age or other personality factors, but with practice, you will learn.
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:yeahthat:

I (and countless others, no doubt) found myself in a similar situation. I started at 34. Intellectually, you know, or think you know, how things should work, but it can be frustrating when you're waiting on motor memory, intuition, and experience to catch up. Furthermore, being well-read on all things aviation goes out the window when the rubber meets (leaves?) the road and you start asking your brain to multitask in ways it hasn't before. There is some truth to the saying "you will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training". It's better to push your personal performance envelope slowly and methodically; attempting to greatly exceed your limits will hinder your learning.

Before you know it, another challenge will come along and you'll forget all about ground handling. And then another challenge after that...

Welcome to POA.
 
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Your progress sounds quite normal to me. I started at 41, then started over at 61. It's not easy and there are lots of things to learn that you have to put together as you go along. Once you get where you juggle all of the balls, keeping them in the air at the same time, then you'll be there.

Just keep working at it and it will come.

Enjoy and keep us posted.
Doc
 
Yep, this is like learning a golf swing, a tennis stroke, etc. You learn by doing it wrong over and over getting a little better each time. If you wanted to taxi around the airport for 40 minutes at a time, you'd be a good taxiier after a couple of sessions.
 
The best thing told to me for taxiing was:

  • Keep speed to a "slow jog", permits a quick stop (if needed) without jarring everyone against their seat belts. Gives you time to think in advance of what you need to do.
  • Look up beyond the spinner about 50-100 feet ahead of you. Permits you to think in advance of what you need to do.
  • Put the solid yellow line underneath your left foot. Permits you a "triangulation" between 50-100 feet ahead, a spot on the left side of the cowl, and your left foot to travel in a straight line. Also keeps you off of the lights/reflectors so you're not bump-bumping across them as you move.
As others said, it's something that comes with more practice, like figuring out stable descents to landing from pattern altitude.

I betcha a donut and cuppa coffe that after 4-5 more lessons, ground ops will be a simple thing.
 
If I had a buck for every time I tried to turn to the taxiway with the yoke, I could probably buy... Well, a few minutes of flying...

My instructor would make fun of me, we would both laugh, and move on.
It got better, muscle memory and all that.
 
I have noticed that for some folks they make a correction say to the left and by the time the plane is moving left you have to correct right! then left! and it becomes S turns across a yellow line..... If you are doing that try doing this instead:

press left rudder then neutralize it, if you still need to go a little left then it's Left Rudder- Neurtral again, then maybe Right Rudder-Neutral........ that way you are making small adjustments to stay "centered" and not having big swings back and forth. Think about balancing on a bicyle - you make constant small adjustments to maintain your balance and so it works w/ the Cessna rudder pedals and taxiing. That's to steer straight........ Like others have said if you need to make a tight turn to actually turn around or to make a corner then you hold the rudder full in the direction you're turning and tap or hold the brake.

You are making progress from what you've posted. Frankly, if you are staying on the asphalt anywhere near the center you are taxiing pretty well for the beginning learning curve. I've had to tromp the brakes to keep from going in the grass once w/ a student - no big deal.

Welcome to POA !
 
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Steering with my feet wasn't a problem when I was learning to fly. Perhaps because I had a few hours driving bulldozers in college?

Now if I could just keep the needles centered all the way to DH I'd be ready for my IR ride. I feel like I've hit a plateau there. Close, but not consistent.
 
Steve said:
I've noticed older students tend to overthink the tasks in the airplane. Look at it as driving a tractor, not a sports car. Pick a spot on the cowl and hold that line to stay straight on the taxiway. Works in the air, too.
Click to expand...

Steve gives good advice as does Mari. I learned on a free castoring nose wheel plane boy that was interesting learning how to turn with differential breaking.
 
Ok.....so I feel better...I guess....I can taxi without wild S turns the length of a taxiway and make turns and follow line, but using brakes and turning or stopping on the plane hold down spot...questionable.....on take off....a little movement back and forth, which i don't like...landing...still unconfortable and using brakes to make first turn is an adventure...two more sessions this week, so i hope for improvement....we did go to a untowered airport with long runways and lots of long taxiways with ability to turn...no one was around, so I did get some additional practice....Dont really like to practice so much on ground, but knd of important....CFI says usually about 10 hours on average before students really get it.....told me not to worry about it so much...
 
First, welcome to PoA!

Second, I don't know if you told us what you are flying. I learned in a Symphony, which used differential braking for steering. So when I transitioned to Cessna 172s, well let's just say that I rode the brakes a little too hard while taxiing.

You received a lot of good advice, but I'll give you two more from a guy who started flying at 44:

1. Check and consider changing your seat length. You can be too close, where you may overcontrol the rudder, or you can be too far away, where you don't get full travel of the rudder pedals. The right answer is somewhere in between, and for me, with 300 hours, I still will re-adjust the seat between start-up and takeoff.

2. If your instructor is having you do touch and gos vs. full stop and taxi back landings, suggest you do more full stop landings. It will give you a lot more taxi time.

Good luck to you!
 
What do people think about getting a set of rudder pedals and using a PC sim like Microsoft FS or X-Plane? The ground physics in MSFS is pretty bad, but the basic motor skills are the same. If it's just a matter of getting used to a new set of motor-skills, that might be a good way to do it. Load up any plane you like, go find a big airport with an insane taxiway layout, and cruise around, maybe. There are other things that MSFS is pretty good for practicing, too.
 
You're doing fine. When you taxi, put the ailerons where they belong and put your hands in your lap if you need taxi practice to get used to it, do that. No reason you can't taxi around for half an hour, even get in a few high speed taxi runs down the runway holding the nose up the whole time. Even go fast enough so you can pick up one wing then the other as you go down the runway. Get comfortable with all the ground handling including driving down the runway on one wheel like you'll be doing on crosswind landings. Spend a half hour to an hour on the ground getting down the sight picture and the muscle memory controlling the plane on what amounts to extended landing roll outs, and the easier you'll find learning that transition and flair to landing.

This isn't something where you can study theoretical stuff and jump in and go. You have to learn judgement of many things, especially motion with a third dimension thrown in, and develop hand eye skill towards control. That takes a little time. Equipment operators have it easier than most because it's the type of thing they do everyday.
 
So I have not posted status in a while....due to My job in which I travel alot, family obligations, and tyring to get time to fly. Not much time left for posting, although I do visit often....and get alot of good information...So last time I posted was August 10th, I was still under 10 hours and having most new pilots troubles with ground steerng etc...Fast forward 2.5 months and I now have 33.5 hours, solo'd, 2.5 hours under the hood, gone to 8 different airports (Untowered, Charlie and Delta). I try to fly once to twice a week and really enjoying the whole experience. Lots to learn and looking forward to keep learning. Next up soft and short field and will actually go to grass field which I am really looking forward to....so far so good. Wish I could get to fly 2 to 3 times a week, but my schedule doesnt always allow for it... also looking forward to night and solo cross crountry....Landing, by far, hs been the hardest and most time consuiming, but I think I have it down but have to just keep improving.
 
Congratulations! Sounds like you're making good progress. There seem to be a lot of PoA members in the Bay Area now. Have you guys had a chance to get together as a group yet?
 
Wait, a Bay Area pilot? I will have to send this pilot a PM. To me, there are way too few of us on POA . . .


Kimberly
 
I'm 53 and just soloed two weeks ago. I was struggling with my landings so I started recording video of my flights and reviewing it in detail after each session. This helped me a lot. You can take a look at some of my video on youtube to see if this is something you'd find valuable.

http://www.youtube.com/my_videos?feature=mhee
 
Alan,

I think you may have made the video private. When I clicked the link, it asked me for a youtube login.

Can anyone else see it?
 
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