New Pilot - First Plane Purchase - Sonerai vs Varieze vs ???

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Brundlefly

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Brundlefly
Got my PPL a little while back currently have around 120 hours, and am looking to buy a plane. I only have about 15k saved, I know that is not a lot for a plane but there are some planes in that range. I do not want to buy a certified aircraft. My friend has a cherokee and his last annual was $3500, and he did not need anything major. Plus there are very few choices in certified in my price range. And doing a partnership is difficult in my area as it is very remote.

A big priority for me is safety, meaning I want a plane that has been proven stable and safe.
Mission goals are:

Xcountry efficiency and performance.
Mostly flying alone.
Want something comfortable, I'm 6'1.
off-airport landing would be nice.

I have been researching for a year and the plane that I keep coming back to is the Sonerai. It is inexpensive, and good performance. I also like the Varieze, great efficiency and great design. Of course if I had more money I would be comparing an RV-4 vs Lone EZ.

My big question is would the Sonerai be a safe plane for a low-time pilot?

Thanks.
 
Brundlefly said:
Got my PPL a little while back currently have around 120 hours, and am looking to buy a plane. I only have about 15k saved, I know that is not a lot for a plane but there are some planes in that range. I do not want to buy a certified aircraft. My friend has a cherokee and his last annual was $3500, and he did not need anything major. Plus there are very few choices in certified in my price range. And doing a partnership is difficult in my area as it is very remote.

A big priority for me is safety, meaning I want a plane that has been proven stable and safe.
Mission goals are:

Xcountry efficiency and performance.
Mostly flying alone.
Want something comfortable, I'm 6'1.
off-airport landing would be nice.

I have been researching for a year and the plane that I keep coming back to is the Sonerai. It is inexpensive, and good performance. I also like the Varieze, great efficiency and great design. Of course if I had more money I would be comparing an RV-4 vs Lone EZ.

My big question is would the Sonerai be a safe plane for a low-time pilot?

Thanks.
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First post......:thumbsup:

Welcome to POA..
 
Your friend either took his Cherokee to the wrong mechanic, or it must have had a bunch of stuff wrong with it. When I had my Cherokee 140, I never spent much more than a few hundred dollars for the annual inspection and maintenance items. I did often spend money on some upgrades each annual (e.g. new stereo intercom, upgrade Loran to GPS, etc).

I've only seen one Sonerai in person before... it was owned by a T-38 instructor stationed here at Sheppard AFB several years ago. I remember him saying that it was a bit of a handful of an airplane. To me it seemed like the kind of plane that was intended to "go up and poke holes in the sky"... e.g. an acrobatics toy and probably not much fun on long cross-countries.

Here's a discussion I found googling for "Sonerai flying characteristics"
http://www.sonerai.net/smf/index.php?topic=452.5;wap2

If it indeed is "not quite as stable as a Pitts" per that discussion, it would be about the worst possible choice for a first plane for a low time pilot.
 
Neal Howard said:
When I had my Cherokee 140, I never spent much more than a few hundred dollars for the annual inspection and maintenance items.
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Who did your annuals, "PencilWhipped 'R US? :confused:

In the NE, $85/hr seems like a typical rate, and 20 hrs is normal just for the inspection. Add an oil change and the usual (an unusual) squawks and AD compliance, and $3K is right in the ballpark. Sometimes less, sometimes more.
 
paflyer said:
Who did your annuals, "PencilWhipped 'R US? :confused:

In the NE, $85/hr seems like a typical rate, and 20 hrs is normal just for the inspection. Add an oil change and the usual (an unusual) squawks and AD compliance, and $3K is right in the ballpark. Sometimes less, sometimes more.
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I got charged $40 for the oil change, 0.5 hours labor.

20 hours for a Cherokee? Might want to get a second opinion on that.
 
Well, you aren't going to use a Ez or any of the like for 'off field' operations. The plane I can think of that may be in your price range is a Highlander. These are excellent STOL 'off airport' operations planes. They aren't fast, but they work short and are light and pretty rugged. They also have folding wings allowing you you store it in a trailer and take/ship it anywhere in the world for local operations.
 
paflyer said:
Who did your annuals, "PencilWhipped 'R US? :confused:
Click to expand...

No need to fling insults like that. I had a very trusted, and knowledgeable AP/IA who was extremely thorough, knew the PA28 series very well including all their particular nuances and did the inspections for a flat rate of $500 for the inspection, AD compliance and paperwork portion itself, any supplies, wear and tear replacement parts, etc were on top of that. These were owner-assisted annuals where I did all the dirty "grunt work" labor myself. I also did all the oil changes and all Part43 Appendix A(c) preventive maintenance items myself. I also did not wait until annual inspection time to let a big long list of squawks stack up, I always have such things taken care of as soon as they show up during the course of the year.
 
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paflyer said:
Who did your annuals, "PencilWhipped 'R US? :confused:

In the NE, $85/hr seems like a typical rate, and 20 hrs is normal just for the inspection. Add an oil change and the usual (an unusual) squawks and AD compliance, and $3K is right in the ballpark. Sometimes less, sometimes more.
Click to expand...

20 hrs for the inspection on a Cherokee? That's a lot, that's what it would take including servicing where I worked. 2 people done in a day and a morning, push out at lunch, including the paperwork. In that time everything would be done including brake linings if required, service all the bearings, to AD research and checks as well as an engine service.
 
Neal Howard said:
No need to fling insults like that. I had a very trusted, and knowledgeable AP/IA who was extremely thorough, knew the PA28 series very well including all their particular nuances and did the inspections for a flat rate of $500 for the inspection, AD compliance and paperwork portion itself, any supplies, wear and tear replacement parts, etc were on top of that. These were owner-assisted annuals where I did all the dirty "grunt work" labor myself. I also did all the oil changes and all Part43 Appendix A(c) preventive maintenance items myself. I also did not wait until annual inspection time to let a big long list of squawks stack up, I always have such things taken care of as soon as they show up during the course of the year.
Click to expand...

No insult intended, it just that I don't think you gave the OP the full, realistic picture for annual MX. I have had mine in three different shops over almost 8 years of ownership; no one allows "owner assisted" annuals around here, even if I had the time to hang around for a few days or a week, and an oil change -parts and labor runs $150 IIRC- .

Also, if you add up the real labor rate and parts cost for dealing with your other work over the year I'll bet it comes up to the $3K yearly maintenance cost.
 
Henning said:
20 hrs for the inspection on a Cherokee? That's a lot, that's what it would take including servicing where I worked. 2 people done in a day and a morning, push out at lunch, including the paperwork. In that time everything would be done including brake linings if required, service all the bearings, to AD research and checks as well as an engine service.
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I was counting the "lube job" and paperwork.
 
Sorry I mentioned the annual cost at my airport, I did not want this get into an argument about that. I live in northern california (about 2 hours drive north of SF), the hourly mechanic rate here is $95. Other places I'm sure are lower, but this is significant for me. My friends cherokee had the flame cone (something like that) on the exhaust system that needed to be replaced and it cost $900. The reason it was so expensive is because of the part which was not bought locally and that was the best price found anywhere in the country.

Anyway, thanks for the links about the Sonerai. It does seem like not the best plane for a lowbie who is concerned about safety. Maybe if I get some experience with a bit faster plane and of course taildraggers, then I'll be ready for the Sonerai.

What about the Varieze for a new pilot?
 
Brundlefly said:
My friends cherokee had the flame cone (something like that) on the exhaust system that needed to be replaced and it cost $900. The reason it was so expensive is because of the part which was not bought locally and that was the best price found anywhere in the country.
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Mine also suffered failure of the internal baffles / flame cone inside the muffler during the years I owned it. Very common failure. They tend to last about 7-8 years average in Cherokee 140s and are just one of the parts that normally "wears out" and needs periodic replacement. An overhauled muffler from AWI-AMI in Minneapolis set me back about $350 exchange. My mechanic charged me 2 hours labor to change it and log the repair in the logbook, at $75/hr.

He's got a sign on his shop door that says his labor rates are:
$75/hr
$95/hr if you watch
$105/hr if you help :lol:

What about the Varieze for a new pilot?
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I know very little about flying the Vari-Eze except a good friend of mine and his brother owned and flew a Long-EZ before I ever met them. He said it was a good-flying and forgiving airplane... until one day his brother lost the engine and had a forced landing on a city street... both the brother and his passenger walked away unhurt but the airframe got totalled hitting various objects during the rollout and was toast.
 
Look into a Wittman Tailwind.

Way faster then anything you're looking at (cruise 130kts +) super economical and in your budget.

Also a really well designed cool plane

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittman_Tailwind

image.jpg



**also if what you say is true about your friends annual, he got screwed....hard...and not in a good kinda way ;)
 
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The reason that many of the EAB's are so speedy and efficient is because they are TINY; try on before you buy/build. I remember the first time I saw the plane of my teenage dreams, the BD5. It looked like a big RC plane.

I'm also about 6'1" and an RV6 is a tight squeeze. Forget about something like a KR. I think a Sonerai is really going to be snug. It was designed to race, not as a XC plane.
 
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paflyer said:
The reason that many of the EAB's are so speedy and efficient is because they are TINY; try on before you buy/build. I remember the first time I saw the plane of my teenage dreams, the BD5. It looked like a big RC plane.

I'm also about 6'1" and an RV6 is a tight squeeze. Forget about something like a KR. I think a Sonerai is really going to be snug. It was designed to race, not as a XC plane.
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Very good point. I am 6' and I do fit into my sonerai but it was built with a little taller turtle deck to allow for a taller pilot.

Check fit before you do anything, very good advice.

Tony
 

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There are precious few aircraft that fit your parameters and budget. The tailwind is a good suggestion. My first plane was a Bowers fly baby. It was fantastic and it still is for the new owner, but it's only one seat. Limiting yourself to experimentals isn't necessarily going to save you money. If you cultivate a good relationship with an aircraft inspector you can still do much of the maintenance and annual inspection yourself on a certified aircraft. A Cessna 150 would be a great first plane. That was my second plane. Annual inspections were around $500. Burning Car gas at five or 6 gallons an hour was some seriously cheap flying! Took a lot of long trips and never worried about the cost. Mine's for sale but it's out of your price range. You can probably find a good one or a 140 or 120 for the amount you have. Good luck!
 
paflyer said:
I'm also about 6'1" and an RV6 is a tight squeeze. Forget about something like a KR. I think a Sonerai is really going to be snug. It was designed to race, not as a XC plane.
Click to expand...

1600vw said:
Very good point. I am 6' and I do fit into my sonerai but it was built with a little taller turtle deck to allow for a taller pilot.

Check fit before you do anything, very good advice.
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I was wondering (or even assuming) that with the 2-place tandems like the EZ and Sonerai they could be modified a bit to allow for taller pilots? I can't see ever taking another passenger up with me, so the extra seat is just luggage space anyway.
 
wby0nder said:
There are precious few aircraft that fit your parameters and budget. The tailwind is a good suggestion. My first plane was a Bowers fly baby. It was fantastic and it still is for the new owner, but it's only one seat. Limiting yourself to experimentals isn't necessarily going to save you money. If you cultivate a good relationship with an aircraft inspector you can still do much of the maintenance and annual inspection yourself on a certified aircraft. A Cessna 150 would be a great first plane. That was my second plane. Annual inspections were around $500. Burning Car gas at five or 6 gallons an hour was some seriously cheap flying! Took a lot of long trips and never worried about the cost. Mine's for sale but it's out of your price range. You can probably find a good one or a 140 or 120 for the amount you have. Good luck!
Click to expand...
It is not just the annual cost, it's that any certified plane in my price range is going to be boring to fly. All my time is in a 150/172 and cherokee, and I'm hoping for something a little more fun. But, you are right, if I'm really about a safe plane to learn on then I should be looking for a 150.
 
How do you define fun? For me, compared to flying gliders pretty much all airplanes are boring to fly. The fly baby was fun I will admit. It was super cheap flying, handled like a dream and I never had to share the cockpit with anyone. My Mooney is fun because it is fast. Everything is a compromise. It's easy to succumb to analysis paralysis. Most experimentals on the market are projects, not necessarily truly ready to fly aircraft. But here are a few names of older but respected designs you might look at. Good examples of these can often be found in your price range. The best deals however won't be found on barnstormers. They will be found by networking and word-of-mouth. Good planes that need a good home

Davis DA2
Emeraude
Mustang II
Spezio
Thorp
Nesmith Cougar (tailwind)
 
I was looking at a Cessna 140, looked like a good buy, I hear good things about the Cherokee 140, I don't think I'd want to do a lot of XC flying in a Sonerai..
 
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