New part 135 certificate - possible?

TMetzinger

TMetzinger

Final Approach
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Tim
I'm curious - is it possible for someone, who has the capital and either has or can employ people with the qualifications, to apply for and get a 135 certificate nowadays?

I know that the fiscal and staffing situation at the FAA is sucky (remember this in November), and have heard that there's an unofficial moratorium on new 135 operators. Just wondering if it's related to workload or what.

If true, I can understand saying to someone that they don't meet the qualifications in the regs, but not how an agency of the gov't can otherwise deny an application.

I'd love to hear from R&W or other folks in the know.
 
There's no moratorium on certification. It depends upon your local FSDO and their workload. I know of several certificates in progress in various FSDO's.
 
Besides the obvious costs of increased scheduled maintenance, life limited components, monumental paperwork, and the like, what are the typical costs and time frames for applying, getting all things together, and getting approval for a single operator with a piston twin?
 
I did this once many years ago. Got the single pilot first then wrote a complete manual for piston engine. I am sure it is much harder today than then. I had a great POI who was a lot of help. There is one thing I found out for sure. It is a great way to make a small fortune..... That is if you start with a large fortune.
 
Our local FSDO is reputed to take 6 years to get a 135 done.

Our 141 app is in year 3, and it just left the FSDO manager's desk, because a former employee of ours got hired at the FSDO and "vouched" for our operation.

According to said employee, had he not vouched, our app would still be in perpetual hold, with zero chance of proceeding. Whether true or not, it aligns with our observations. Most of the listed 141 operations on the FSDO's website folded over a decade ago.

When we initially submitted our 141 paperwork, we were told by the ASI "off the record, we don't do 141s here, so you wasted your time... sorry" -- sure enough, our app package was mailed back with a curt letter saying "not yet, we'll contact you when we're ready for it -- here's a tracking number to placate you with"

If it were me seeking a 135, I'd find the right fed, buy him some Red Lobster, and call that favor in. Without a friend in the FSDO, I probably wouldn't attempt it.

$0.02

- Mike
 
Is there a reason for this situation? Do they not have the staff or would they rather there not be more 135 and 141 operations?
 
Jack Spectre said:
Is there a reason for this situation? Do they not have the staff or would they rather there not be more 135 and 141 operations?
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My understanding is that they've been fully staffed for some time.

I'd rather have less work than I have currently also. Would that I had the luxury of refusing entire categories of assignments :)
 
I know someone who was involved in getting a multi-plane part135 approved in bf nowhere upper plains within the course of a year. They used a consultant who basically plugged their company name into a macro that spits out the required 3000 pages of manuals (the macro wasn't perfect and in some places it still had the name of the last outfit or %%companyname%%, but as nobody at the FAA actually reads those manuals it doesn't really matter.

As long as your 'base of operations' (postal address for some office space with the desk of your director of maintenance and director of operations) is wherever the approving fsdo is located, you dont have to necessarily get the cert where you intend to fly (the local interhospital transport helicopter at my place in maryland is on a certificate from Louisiana, an outfit in ND I know about is on a certificate from Colorado).

I did hear that the Washington area FSDO is extremely far behind on new applications, so unless you purchase someone elses company within their district, your only viable option may indeed be to set up shop in a locale that has no backlog and to put your plane(s) at an 'outbase' in virginia. One of the part135 consultants may be able to give you some guidance on where to go on the east coast to have a shot at getting this done.

What size operation are you thinking about ?
 
Rotor&Wing said:
There's no moratorium on certification. It depends upon your local FSDO and their workload. I know of several certificates in progress in various FSDO's.
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It's easy to say,, while they are in some one hold basket for years on end.
 
weilke said:
I know someone who was involved in getting a multi-plane part135 approved in bf nowhere upper plains within the course of a year. They used a consultant who basically plugged their company name into a macro that spits out the required 3000 pages of manuals (the macro wasn't perfect and in some places it still had the name of the last outfit or %%companyname%%, but as nobody at the FAA actually reads those manuals it doesn't really matter.
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Not sure about your "3000 pages of manuals" as I've never seen 135 manuals reach that size and scope.

As far as the "boiler plate" style manuals sold by the "consultants" this is where many problems arise. The prospective operator doesn't bother to read the manuals and submits them only to have them rejected over multitude of mistakes. Manuals are like a mutual agreement between the operator and the Administrator on how the operator will conduct his operation, thus the reason why the FAA doesn't offer "boiler plate" manuals. What does this tell the Inspector when the person applying for a certificate doesn't proof read his own manuals?

For the statement "nobody at the FAA actually reads those manuals it doesn't really matter" you are very mistaken. Those manuals are reviewed page by page using current guidance, thus the amount of time consumed by the assigned Inspector(s) during certification.


weilke said:
so unless you purchase someone elses company within their district, your only viable option may indeed be to set up shop in a locale that has no backlog and to put your plane(s) at an 'outbase' in virginia.
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Certificates cannot be purchased. Even purchasing a company that has an operating certificate doesn't guarantee the new owner can continue operating under that certificate.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Not sure about your "3000 pages of manuals" as I've never seen 135 manuals reach that size and scope.

...

For the statement "nobody at the FAA actually reads those manuals it doesn't really matter" you are very mistaken. Those manuals are reviewed page by page using current guidance, thus the amount of time consumed by the assigned Inspector(s) during certification.
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Very much agree. Our GOM is way way less than 3,000 pages. And every page gets reviewed. Sometimes new revisions get kicked back for the littlest most trivial things.
 
TMetzinger said:
I'm curious - is it possible for someone, who has the capital and either has or can employ people with the qualifications, to apply for and get a 135 certificate nowadays?

I know that the fiscal and staffing situation at the FAA is sucky (remember this in November), and have heard that there's an unofficial moratorium on new 135 operators. Just wondering if it's related to workload or what.

If true, I can understand saying to someone that they don't meet the qualifications in the regs, but not how an agency of the gov't can otherwise deny an application.

I'd love to hear from R&W or other folks in the know.
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I know an operation that just got issued a new 135 cert a few weeks ago.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Not sure about your "3000 pages of manuals" as I've never seen 135 manuals reach that size and scope.
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Well, a big old box full of folders. Guilty on exaggeration on the number of pages.

For the statement "nobody at the FAA actually reads those manuals it doesn't really matter" you are very mistaken. Those manuals are reviewed page by page using current guidance, thus the amount of time consumed by the assigned Inspector(s) during certification.
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My more cynical view of goverment work is that someone claims to be busy reading manuals while actually 'telecommuting' from his weekend home on the northern neck of virginia.

* the translation of 'telecommuting' is 'sitting at home with the VPN connection active but no data being transmitted' (my BIL did database security for DOT, they are on to you guys....) .

Certificates cannot be purchased. Even purchasing a company that has an operating certificate doesn't guarantee the new owner can continue operating under that certificate.
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That is why I didn't say to purchase a certificate but rather the whole company including its pretend staff and pretend planes.
 
weilke said:
That is why I didn't say to purchase a certificate but rather the whole company including its pretend staff and pretend planes.
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Still, what if the FAA says "We do not think you are of sufficient moral character to allow you to do business with the public." You can buy a fully operating turn key business, but the Feds aren't going to give you the operating certificate.

Is there a way to be able to "shop FSDOs"? Can you develop your certificate in a district that has a lower workload, then once completed "move" the certificate to another district?
 
weilke said:
My more cynical view of goverment work is that someone claims to be busy reading manuals while actually 'telecommuting' from his weekend home on the northern neck of virginia.

* the translation of 'telecommuting' is 'sitting at home with the VPN connection active but no data being transmitted' (my BIL did database security for DOT, they are on to you guys....) .
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So if an Inspector is teleworking, and he has hours of reading manuals why would there be data transmitting??? Guess I don't get the connection. :dunno:

weilke said:
That is why I didn't say to purchase a certificate but rather the whole company including its pretend staff and pretend planes.
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Even if one was to purchase the entire company this still doesn't give them rights to operate the certificate.
 
Henning said:
Is there a way to be able to "shop FSDOs"? Can you develop your certificate in a district that has a lower workload, then once completed "move" the certificate to another district?
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"Shopping FSDO's" will get you much unwanted attention and result in much more scrutiny in the certification process.
 
Henning said:
Is there a way to be able to "shop FSDOs"? Can you develop your certificate in a district that has a lower workload, then once completed "move" the certificate to another district?
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This apparently used to be the way to do it. By now they have managed to maximize the paper-pushing and minimize the actually going out and doing work part and give a transfer the same scrutiny as a new application.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
"Shopping FSDO's" will get you much unwanted attention and result in much more scrutiny in the certification process.
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What if you're straight up with them "Hey, you guys are swamped with 100 applications, Is there a FSDO that has a lower load where I can get everything up to spec, then I come see you?" Why should that be a problem?

It doesn't make sense that the work load isn't being spread evenly around the FSDOs. I recognize the need for some local knowledge, but 90% of it all can be done from anywhere.

I'm not shopping to find someone bribeable or avoid anyone, I'm just trying to be efficient about it. Scrutiny I'm not particularly fussed about.
 
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weilke said:
This apparently used to be the way to do it. By now they have managed to maximize the paper-pushing and minimize the actually going out and doing work part and give a transfer the same scrutiny as a new application.
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That's fine, I've already gone through the back and forth and back and forth and got everything squared away to clear scrutiny though. All they have to do is give a final go through and it should be good to go.
 
schmookeeg said:
My understanding is that they've been fully staffed for some time.
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That means nothing lol. Fully staffed according to who/what? Budget or workload?

Tell ya what about Australia, they may pay a lot of tax, but their government offices are timely and on schedule. DMV, in and out in 10 minutes with new license in hand. CASA (Aus FAA), everything on exactly the schedule they said it would be, and it was quick. My immigration guy? Had my Visas on exactly the day he said he would. When I had an appointment to see him, he was ready at that time. The phone number he gave me? He picks up. It COSTS MONEY to get service levels you want. You don't want to pay taxes and you don't want to pay user fees, so WTF do you expect the service here to be like? When it comes to government service we get what we pay for.
 
Henning said:
That means nothing lol. Fully staffed according to who/what? Budget or workload?

Tell ya what about Australia, they may pay a lot of tax, but their government offices are timely and on schedule. DMV, in and out in 10 minutes with new license in hand. CASA (Aus FAA), everything on exactly the schedule they said it would be, and it was quick. My immigration guy? Had my Visas on exactly the day he said he would. When I had an appointment to see him, he was ready at that time. The phone number he gave me? He picks up. It COSTS MONEY to get service levels you want. You don't want to pay taxes and you don't want to pay user fees, so WTF do you expect the service here to be like? When it comes to government service we get what we pay for.
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It was very tongue in cheek. :) I won't risk my pending status by making other conjectures on a public forum. I've probably already cost us another year by saying anything at all... heh.
 
schmookeeg said:
It was very tongue in cheek. :) I won't risk my pending status by making other conjectures on a public forum. I've probably already cost us another year by saying anything at all... heh.
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Yeah, because the guy in whose inbox your application is languishing is currently busy monitoring the internets for aviation related content.
 
Henning said:
It doesn't make sense that the work load isn't being spread evenly around the FSDOs. I recognize the need for some local knowledge, but 90% of it all can be done from anywhere.

.
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FSDO stands for "Flight Standards District Office", hence it covers a district. Some districts are busier than others.

I would agree with you on certain functions being covered by a centralized office. However, with the 23rd CR and a limited budget the manpower just isn't there.
 
This is a very education thread. Tim, thanks for asking the question. Thanks R&W for the answers.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
"Shopping FSDO's" will get you much unwanted attention and result in much more scrutiny in the certification process.
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Right on the money, we won't deal with the issue, but if you try to find some that will we will screw you good.
 
You have several Congress pukes in the same "district". New business, with jobs, and taxes, taxes and taxes. I've seen govt expedite itself pretty well if presented correctly - especially to remain under the radar. Absolutely amazing results at OKC.
 
It took my local operator three years to get a single pilot 135 cert.....
 
So, clearly any business plan that depends on getting a 135 certificate in a specific timeframe is a nonstarter.



Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
 
Rotor&Wing said:
FSDO stands for "Flight Standards District Office", hence it covers a district. Some districts are busier than others.

I would agree with you on certain functions being covered by a centralized office. However, with the 23rd CR and a limited budget the manpower just isn't there.
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I'm not asking for a centralized office. I'm not asking anybody to change anything. If some FSDO in ND has a bit of workload they can still fit in, I am willing to work directly with them and go to them to do all my inspections and qualification rides and what not. I will go to where there is some slack at my own expense. Not asking nobody for nothin, I'll pony up the extra dollars that it costs. There I can do all my aircraft standards and inspection and manuals and blah blah other paperwork that is generic to all Districts, and that should cover well into the 90th percentile of the workload of a 135 certificate. With all that complete I now transfer my file down to say for me the Miami FSDO where we only have to work out the district specific operating requirements and restrictions.

After all, the word STANDARDS does come before District...;)
 
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TMetzinger said:
So, clearly any business plan that depends on getting a 135 certificate in a specific timeframe is a nonstarter.
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What is it that you are trying to accomplish? Can you put the airplane on someone else's certificate? Of course they would have operational control and it would cost you something but I'm sure you could do that faster than getting your own certificate.
 
You know, I don't mind the taxes here so much, all in all they're pretty low for the standards we live in (although we've got an overdue bill for bridges to be paid...). I don't mind the size of government. The more you shrink it the worse the service gets. It's either this level or more, or go straight to Anarchy, because any level between here and there is just an increasing intensity exercise in futility and frustration.

What we need is to demand is that they give us value for the money. Cut the waste and inefficiency out of it. Let's use what we have more wisely and get more for our money.
 
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I'm going to disagree with current federal budget woes as being cause for all FAA lackadaiscal efforts.

The FAA allows way too much latitude to individuals to make or break an operator. Apparently there is no concern to standarize the process.
 
Richard said:
I'm going to disagree with current federal budget woes as being cause for all FAA lackadaiscal efforts.

The FAA allows way too much latitude to individuals to make or break an operator. Apparently there is no concern to standarize the process.
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There's a lot that needs to be done to streamline processes so more can be done for the money. You can't not have an FAA or some public regulatory body for air transportation, although getting rid of them would help start reducing the population, and as more airliners start crashing, small planes will start sounding like a heck of a good deal and we could have 100s of thousands of little planes flying around....
 
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TMetzinger said:
So, clearly any business plan that depends on getting a 135 certificate in a specific timeframe is a nonstarter.
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Not only that but be prepared to cough up some serious dough and let it simmer for an undisclosed amount of time. In 2002 I was quoted $70K and one year. That FAA individual was set to retire. He cautioned it would be a higher amount ("above $100K" is all he would say) and implied as much as 3 years.

What business plan (partners, investors, lenders) is willing to render control of sizeable assets for an unended amount of time?

Too, be prepared for hiccups along the way...such as a stalwart FAA individual who has ties to an existing 135 competitior.
 
TMetzinger said:
So, clearly any business plan that depends on getting a 135 certificate in a specific timeframe is a nonstarter.
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Why would you think that? There's somebody in your area with a 135 certificate that you can get on for some money and a cut of your action.
 
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