New here! Looking at some different planes and need some help!

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timmy318

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timmy318
Hi all! This is my first post here! Not sure if I should be posting this in this section but here it goes. I have a PPL and also an instrument rating and HP rating. My Father and another friend also have had theirs. My father has a little over 1,000 hours (also HP & I Rating) while I have just under 500. My friend just got his this past year but is extremely passionate about flying. I trained on a Diamond DA-40. My father and my friend both trained on a Cessna Skycatcher. The Diamond had 2 GPS’s, Auto-Pilot, Weather Radar, and Traffic Detection while the Skycatcher had none of the “goodies”. I’ve always rented the DA-40 at my local airport and now I’m thinking about buying a plane. We’ve been looking around on different websites, taken a look at our airport that has some Cirrus’s, Cessna’s and Mooney’s. Even went up in some. We liked what we saw. We’re looking at buying new or maybe slightly used. Price isn’t really a factor. We would like something that has a range of around 1,000 nm or better. We need it for our trips that we take. Speed is something that we would like but it is not a must. Must sit at least 4 people (that includes PIC). The list of aircrafts that we are looking at is at the bottom. My favorite of the group is the TTx but I know you should never fall in love with a specific aircraft when you start looking to buy one because it can mess you up. Many people around my airport talk highly of the Cirrus and then others I meet at fly-ins don’t seem to think so. I’m just looking for a second, third, etc... opinion. I’ve looked up reviews of the aircraft but I would like some personal experience if possible or some other type of insight. Well. I think that about covers it! Thank you to all in advance for your help!
- Mooney Acclaim Type S
- Cessna Corvallis TTx
- Cirrus SR-22
- Mooney Ovation3
- Beechcraft Bonanza G36
- Cessna Turbo Skylane JT-A
- Diamond DA50 Magnum
 
How many hours do you fly a month??

Under 25hrs: I'd get the Skylane

Over 25hrs: I'd get the Mooney Ovation.

Or if you put on some real hours and money is no issue, get a Evolution, 300kts, FL280, 4 seater that looks goooood
img.axd


http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-EVOLUTION/2011-LANCAIR-EVOLUTION/1280275.htm
 
Depending how far out you're looking to buy, the Pipistrel Panthera might be on the list too. Awesome airplane--200 knots on 10 gph. Also sexy as can be.

the_pipisttrel_panthera_4_seater_aircraft_nfo4y.jpg
 
If you need to carry 4 people, do some weight and balance calculations on all of them, fly each one, then buy the Bonanza. :D
 
Can you actually buy a DA50?

Also, no Piper Matrix/Mirage? 213 ktas, 1345 nm at long range cruise.
 
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Even if they would, the airplanes aren't comfortable (or IMO viable) prospects for such trips on a repeat basis. Even for shorter trips, non-pilot passengers will quickly jump ship. One of many quick examples occurred here when a friend sold the King Air B-200 he was using to expand and support his employee leasing/insurance business throughout the region. Employees used the plane regularly and productively and all was good.

Then the company's expansion plan changed from regional to national, which meant many more trips in the 1,000 nm range vs the ~200-500 nm trips centered in Dallas. My friend replaced the B-200 with a Citation III, which was perfect for his long trips but expensive as hell for the short trips that both the executives and key employees continued to make in support of the existing operations.

So he decided that since his wife wanted to learn to fly anyway, he would buy an almost new and nicely equipped A-36, add Keith A/C and provide the help with a nice-enough ride that was more affordable than either the jet or the turboprop.

Within six months the employees had bailed on riding around in the Bonanza (too little, too crowded, too bumpy, no potty) and were all back on SWA, his wife was too busy redecorating to fly the Bonanza, and even the CEO was reluctant to using the jet for short trips. So he kept the jet, bought another King Air, sold the Bonanza and has operated with the two cabin-class planes since 2007.

Ken Ibold said:
4 people AND 1,000 miles at the same time? I don't think anything on that list will do that.
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Well, I've been trying to respond to everyone comments but it keeps telling me a mod must approve my comment.
 
jpower said:
Depending how far out you're looking to buy, the Pipistrel Panthera might be on the list too. Awesome airplane--200 knots on 10 gph. Also sexy as can be.

the_pipisttrel_panthera_4_seater_aircraft_nfo4y.jpg
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I knew I shouldn't have posted here. All that's happened is that I've added more aircraft to the list :wink2:!
 
alfadog said:
Can you actually buy a DA50?

Also, no Piper Matrix/Mirage? 213 ktas, 1345 nm at long range cruise.
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Well. I do have another list of aircraft that I like. Reason why I didn't include them on my original list is because I can't justify spending so much money on them. Don't get me wrong, they're sexy as hell and I love them (actually got to fly a PC-12 just last week :D) but I just don't want to buy one. I've been looking around for people interested in co-owning an aircraft but all I've found is a new pilot wanting a Corvallis.
- Epic LT
- Daher-Socata TBM850
- Pilatus PC-12 NG
- Piper Meridian
 
Ken Ibold said:
4 people AND 1,000 miles at the same time? I don't think anything on that list will do that.
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Sorry. Should've been a little bit clearer. The 1,000 nm trip is mostly just for me and sometimes one more person. With 4 people loaded up, we usually don't exceed the 500 nm mark.
 
timmy318 said:
Sorry. Should've been a little bit clearer. The 1,000 nm trip is mostly just for me and sometimes one more person. With 4 people loaded up, we usually don't exceed the 500 nm mark.
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4 people 500 miles is still not something the typical 4 seater will do, a 182/Piper Dakota can but it won't take much baggage to nix that idea amd force a fuel stop. Even some of the bigger planes can have issues, some bonanzas will, some not so much.

IMO you are looking at a six place plane, such as a 206/210 from Cessna, a Cherokee 6 or Saratoga/lance from Piper or a late(r) model Bonanza. Given you also want to make longer trips I would cross off the FG planes and look at 210s, PA32Rs or Bonanzas
 
Isn't the answer always buy an RV. Sorry I could not resist.
 
For comfort you need a six seater for four to be comfortable.the new Cessna 206s or the saratogas would be a good choice imo
 
frfly172 said:
For comfort you need a six seater for four to be comfortable.the new Cessna 206s or the saratogas would be a good choice imo
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Yeah, but the new ones tend to be loaded to the point where their useful load goes to crap. So if 2 of the 4 are kids, then that's different. Otherwise, you're looking at 80s vintage airplanes.

A Saratoga won't go 1000 miles on full fuel, nor will a T206, even with the extended wingtips/fuel cells. Maybe 700 or so. In fact, the only piston singles I know of that can do 1000 miles nonstop are a few 2-seat experimentals.

Dial it up a little and an Epic LT would be a pretty good choice.
 
bartmc said:
If you need to carry 4 people, do some weight and balance calculations on all of them, fly each one, then buy the Bonanza. :D
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I know you are joking but the G36 will not carry 1600+lbs required for 4 pax and fuel for 1000nm.

I think they op is going to have to consider a 1972 Cessna T210 or Turbo 36 bonanza.

Later models just do not have the useful weights required. There are only one or two guys I know on AOPA who actually attempt such flights and they do it with air masks at 20,000 at 200 knots. 5 hours or two stops at 2 1/2 hrs. It takes a special dedication and love of aviation that must passengers do not have to make this work.

When I fly to Fl or CA, I send Maria on the airlines and take a few fellow pilots along with me....

When I leave with enough fuel to do 1000nm I only have about 460lbs left for people if I want to stay strictly within GW on takeoff. A newer model Comanche 260 TC might have 760 pax payload with fuel.

Av Shiloh has a 71 Turbo 260 Comanche with tip tanks and he can go 190 kts nearly 1300-1400 NM (although 7 hrs is more than most of us can handle aloft).

In most modern planes and even most classical planes you get speed and payload or distance. Seldom do you get payload, speed and distance.

I guess the reason for that is that most of us do not wish to fly that way along with the simple limits of physics making it uniquely difficult.
 
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The DA50 has never been sold. The Mooneys and the Bonanza will have less useful load than a G5 SR22 but an older SR22 will be more in line with the Bonanza for useful load. If you look at used aircraft something like a C210 might work. On the Cirrus SR22 you can trade useful load for options (turbo, A/C, FIKI) and still have a reasonable useful load left.
 
A T-210 will make almost 950 nm with 45 min reserves and all the usual conditions (startup, taxi, no wind, blah). Eastbound legs of 1k+ nm are usually easy if you want to remain airborne for that long. Westbound is almost always a one-stopper.



Ken Ibold said:
Yeah, but the new ones tend to be loaded to the point where their useful load goes to crap. So if 2 of the 4 are kids, then that's different. Otherwise, you're looking at 80s vintage airplanes.

A Saratoga won't go 1000 miles on full fuel, nor will a T206, even with the extended wingtips/fuel cells. Maybe 700 or so. In fact, the only piston singles I know of that can do 1000 miles nonstop are a few 2-seat experimentals.

Dial it up a little and an Epic LT would be a pretty good choice.
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I'm unclear on the mission here.

You want to fly 1000nm, nonstop?

Do all your friends and family wear Depends? I can't find many folks who want to fly with me direct from Ohio to FL nonstop, which is just 4 hours. I did 600nm yesterday nonstop in 3h:52m and that is about my top limit (and pax, and dog!) for nonstop.

Even in the fastest of your list, that is still going to be a 5 hour plus trip.
If "Price isn’t really a factor" then go buy a jet or king air or MU-2.

So, what I'd recommend doing is to sit down and figure out how many trips you really take (not how many you THINK you'll WANT to take, be realistic)... and how many people... and dogs.. and golf bags... and big game...etc..

Then, see how many trips you will be flying 4 or 5 empty seats around. If you're like most, 90% of your flying is solo or with one other person. So think about getting a fast 2 seater (Glasair, Lancair, RV, etc) for your 90% trips and renting or get into a club for the 10% where you need a 182 or 6-seat Bonanza.

-Mike
 
mikegreen said:
I'm unclear on the mission here.

You want to fly 1000nm, nonstop?

Do all your friends and family wear Depends? I can't find many folks who want to fly with me direct from Ohio to FL nonstop, which is just 4 hours. I did 600nm yesterday nonstop in 3h:52m and that is about my top limit (and pax, and dog!) for nonstop.

Even in the fastest of your list, that is still going to be a 5 hour plus trip.
If "Price isn’t really a factor" then go buy a jet or king air or MU-2.

So, what I'd recommend doing is to sit down and figure out how many trips you really take (not how many you THINK you'll WANT to take, be realistic)... and how many people... and dogs.. and golf bags... and big game...etc..

Then, see how many trips you will be flying 4 or 5 empty seats around. If you're like most, 90% of your flying is solo or with one other person. So think about getting a fast 2 seater (Glasair, Lancair, RV, etc) for your 90% trips and renting or get into a club for the 10% where you need a 182 or 6-seat Bonanza.

-Mike
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Me and a fellow pilot fly at least once a week about 500 nm one way (1,000 rt). My family and I usually take a trip once a month or more somewhere. When I said price isn't a factor, I meant for the options I had given. I don't want/plan on getting certified in a jet because I have absolutely no use for it. Twin rated might do that later on in life but I think a single is enough for me right now. So, in context I'm pretty set on getting a four+ seater. I rent the DA-40 right now, and you would be surprised on how many times all the seats are filled. I'm getting tired of working around the airports scheduled of when I can rent the plane (they only have one DA-40). My flight instructor and some other people I've talked too also mentioned this. I've read blog posts of people jumping the gun on buying a plane and then ending up not using it the way they thought they were going too. I've been contemplating purchasing an aircraft ever since I received my pilots license and now/soon is the time I'm thinking is finally right. Personally, I can make it 1,000nm non-stop. Other people on the other hand, can't. When flying to FL I usually stop in ATL anyways because we have family there. Tie down, spend the night there and visit, and then the next day fly to FL.
​
 
What he said. Sounds like your hang-up is the availability(rather, the limited availability) of the DA-40... so why not just purchase one of those?
 
Skylane81E said:
Does the DA 40 work for you?
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I don't mind the DA-40 but if I'm going to purchase a plane I would like one that I really like. It's not the most comfortable of planes I've flown in. Renting it is fine, but actually owning it isn't on my list of things I would like to happen.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
What he said. Sounds like your hang-up is the availability(rather, the limited availability) of the DA-40... so why not just purchase one of those?
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As said before, it's not the most comfortable of planes to fly in IMHO. The avionics in it aren't all that bad. I've looked at the newer ones and they just don't seem to do it for me.
 
timmy318 said:
Hi all! This is my first post here!
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Welcome aboard! We love buying planes with other people's money, so you've made a great first post. ;)

- Mooney Acclaim Type S
- Cessna Corvallis TTx
- Cirrus SR-22
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On all of the above except for the normally aspirated SR-22, expect to be doing some engine work long before TBO, especially the Acclaim. They seem to have problems keeping that big fire-breathing engine cool enough. They're all pretty hot, though.

- Beechcraft Bonanza G36
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A nice plane, but you'll be paying a lot of money for the name IMO - You can get the same capability elsewhere for less money.

- Cessna Turbo Skylane JT-A
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This will do darn near anything, but if you're going to go 1000nm it's going to take you a long time. It's probably the best for going into grass fields, but be aware that you may have a harder time finding Jet-A, especially for reasonable prices. It's usually cheaper than 100LL at an airport that has both, but most of the airports that sell Jet-A are more expensive than the little country podunk municipal airports that only sell 100LL.

- Diamond DA50 Magnum
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Not certified or for sale yet.

- Mooney Ovation3
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Since I'm currently flying an Ovation, this is the one I can help you the most with. Note that you won't be going 1000nm with four people unless they're really small - My full fuel payload is 495lb. You can go 1000nm on full fuel, but obviously unless the people average 124 pounds each you can't take a full load of people.

FWIW, I true out at about 170 knots on 12 gph in cruise. The Ovation's sweet spot is right around 9,000 feet, I get about 175 knots true on that 12 gph there. With 89 gallons usable in the standard tanks, you can go 1000nm with an hour reserve if you're carrying 495 lb or less. Or, you can trade some fuel for weight and put four FAA-standard adults on board and go about 650nm.

NineThreeKilo said:
How many hours do you fly a month??

Under 25hrs: I'd get the Skylane

Over 25hrs: I'd get the Mooney Ovation.
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In which case, you'd be back under 25 hours because you'd be getting there so much faster. :D

Skylane81E said:
4 people 500 miles is still not something the typical 4 seater will do, a 182/Piper Dakota can but it won't take much baggage to nix that idea amd force a fuel stop.

Huh? What are you calling a "typical 4 seater"? Let's try this with 182 and Mooney:

In the 182 I'd plan on a 500nm trip requiring 65 gallons of fuel with an hour reserve, and I'd be able to take 831 pounds in the cabin - Four FAA-sized adults plus 111 pounds of baggage. Done.

In the Mooney, I'd plan on a 500nm trip requiring 53 gallons of fuel with an hour reserve, and I'd be able to take 771 pounds in the cabin - Four FAA-sized adults plus 51 pounds of baggage.
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flyingcheesehead said:
Huh? What are you calling a "typical 4 seater"? Let's try this with 182 and Mooney:

In the 182 I'd plan on a 500nm trip requiring 65 gallons of fuel with an hour reserve, and I'd be able to take 831 pounds in the cabin - Four FAA-sized adults plus 111 pounds of baggage. Done.

In the Mooney, I'd plan on a 500nm trip requiring 53 gallons of fuel with an hour reserve, and I'd be able to take 771 pounds in the cabin - Four FAA-sized adults plus 51 pounds of baggage.
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But in the 182, the four people don't have to be midgets :)

In my opinion, I can't see 2 real-sized people being thrilled in the back seat of a Mooney for 3 hours. Unless the front seat folks have the seat all the way forward. Even with the long body...
 
mikegreen said:
But in the 182, the four people don't have to be midgets :)

In my opinion, I can't see 2 real-sized people being thrilled in the back seat of a Mooney for 3 hours. Unless the front seat folks have the seat all the way forward. Even with the long body...
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How you figure? The below from Cessna doesn't sound any better than the Mooney.

Full Fuel Payload
435 lb (197 kg)

http://www.cessna.com/single-engine/turbo-skylane-jta
 
Yes, by the numbers it is very similar.

I'm speaking not of the weight and fuel load, but being comfortable in the plane.
The backseat room comparison is only what I speak of :) I find it to be extremely cramped in the backseat of a mooney, in knee room, leg-stretching room, and shoulder room.
 
Well. Based on some of the previous comments I've ruled out both Mooney's. I still love the Corvallis (probably will never stop). I've narrowed down the list:

- Cessna Corvallis?Cirrus SR-22 GTS (Not the Turbo model)
Speed/Range. Both aircraft fit this category. The Cirrus is a bit slower, has CAPS, different avionics, and throttle/mix/prop controllers. The main difference is the cost. The Cirrus I priced would cost just over $700K new while the Cessna would cost just under $800K. I haven't actually closely examined either with a magnifying glass to see what that extra $100K buys a person. Hopefully not just the word Cessna.

- Cessna Turbo Stationair
I like the flexibily of this airplane. Doesn't have the greatest of ranges but I guess I can make a stop here and there when the Cabin is full. If I were to purchase this aircraft I would most likely remove the 3rd row and move the 2nd row back to increase the leg room. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the seats on like a track where you can move them up/back. Then I would use the rest for cargo when needed. I priced the Stationair and it came to around $700K. Who the hell ever heard of paying $40K for air-conditioning.

- Cessna Skylane JT-A
Range. That's about it. Priced at $580K.
 
What's wrong with a 210? Can't get a new one, but at half those prices you could get a damn nice one. Faster than a 206 too.
 
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Samwise said:
What's wrong with a 210? Can't get a new one, but at half those prices you could get a damn nice one. Faster than a 206 too.
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I imagine he wants all the glass panel bells and whistles which would add quite a bit to a 1980's-era airplane. OP, please correct me if I am wrong.
 
mikegreen said:
I'm unclear on the mission here.

You want to fly 1000nm, nonstop?

Do all your friends and family wear Depends? I can't find many folks who want to fly with me direct from Ohio to FL nonstop, which is just 4 hours. I did 600nm yesterday nonstop in 3h:52m and that is about my top limit (and pax, and dog!) for nonstop.


-Mike
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A Gatorade bottle (or other container) takes care of that problem pretty easily...
 
On all of the above except for the normally aspirated SR-22, expect to be doing some engine work long before TBO, especially the Acclaim.
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Not necessarily true about the Acclaim. The premature top overhauls were due to a faulty breather tube design that has since been corrected. I installed the mod, I fly LOP, and I see CHT's in the high 200's and low 300's. We'll know more after my annual in September, when we'll discover how the mod is performing after a full year and 100+ hours of service.
 
alfadog said:
I imagine he wants all the glass panel bells and whistles which would add quite a bit to a 1980's-era airplane. OP, please correct me if I am wrong.
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You hit it dead on! There was actually a 172 at my local airport for sale ('82 I believe) that I was seriously considering buying. That is, until I saw the amount of $$$$ it would take to get the a G1000 and all the other goodies in it. Then there was the interior, needed a touch up. Once everything was said and done, it was still under the price of a new or slightly used one. But, I've been saving up for a plane and my finances are in good condition (not to mention that the boss (aka my wife) finally gave the okay).
 
timmy318 said:
You hit it dead on! There was actually a 172 at my local airport for sale ('82 I believe) that I was seriously considering buying. That is, until I saw the amount of $$$$ it would take to get the a G1000 and all the other goodies in it. Then there was the interior, needed a touch up. Once everything was said and done, it was still under the price of a new or slightly used one. But, I've been saving up for a plane and my finances are in good condition (not to mention that the boss (aka my wife) finally gave the okay).
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If I could buy from your list, I would probably go with the Corvalis. Personally, I would spend the money on a Stearman and something like an RV but that is not the sort of option you posed.
 
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