New classified ad rule makes no sense; please explain.

[jason]

I understand the rule was motivated by good intentions.

But the rule appeared very close on the heels of some mildly irate dialog on this classified ad thread:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49993

This was being discussed long before that thread happened.

Tim Winters (but not the OP) publicly objected to a post whose only content was "Good luck." He then quoted the AOPA forum rule that, oddly enough, seems to be identical to the rule the MC has been discussing for weeks. (Though the MC did add a "please.")

So - was the "good luck" sincere or cynical? This is the kind of question the MC will be called on to vote on. Doesn't really matter what your vote would be, you'd find yourself adjudicating ugly ambiguous cases. If you are willing to keep the rule and put in the effort it may require, maybe you should consider charging an advertising fee. Otherwise the sellers get the benefit of free advertising (the kind where feedback isn't possible) at your expense (in time.)

We already do that every day

Also - if the members of the MC would please go to Amazon.com or even many aviation product sales sites, please note that customers are allowed to post unflattering reviews of products, including berating of the sales price. Retailers would normally be expected to want to suppress negative comments, since they would cut into sales. Yet all these sites have realized the psychological dynamics that makes it advantageous to allow such comments.

So the ripped-off AOPA rule is actually contrary to the public comment policies employed by the most successful online retailers.

If you could simply remove the rule I for one would still appreciate it. If you must have a rule, how about a nice generic one like "Show respect at all times." But of course you already have that in the Rules of Conduct

Thank you for considering my views.

We aren't a retail organization. We're a community of like-minded individuals. We're not trying to make money. We're trying to build a community.

Jim, I do understand what you're saying. I'm just building my thoughts on what is the best way to build a community...not the best way to run a retail website.

 

[gismo]

And the results of that policy are obvious when the same ads appear month-after-month with no sale, primarily because the doofus owner is/was clueless about the market for his cream-puff and doesn't plan to do any market research to figure it out. But maybe the publications like it because it increases ad revenue.

1. That's what I've got in it.
2. That's what they're selling for in Trade-a-plane.
3. I figure it only takes one buyer at my price.
4. That's what it's worth to me.
5. If I can't sell it for that price I'll keep it.
6. The only calls I get are sorry-ass lowball tire-kickers buyers anyway.

You forgot:
7. My wife (or divorce atty or bankruptcy judge, etc) says I have to sell but they don't have a clue what a realistic price is and I'd like to hang on to the plane as long as I can.

 

[wabower]

Does your answer mean that direct questions are not allowed, or that they are only allowed with sufficient molly-coddle to prevent the seller from having even the faintest idea that somebody might not think his baby isn't quite as pretty as he obviously perceives it to be?

In the post you mentioned, the OP didn't elaborate on the method he used, and I didn't know that the "mother may I" doctrine had been adopted here.

If I had been asked that same question about an ad or description of a plane to a client, my answer might have been "oops, nice catch. Maybe I should re-think that grading system" or perhaps "I don't know squat about those systems, I just wanted a number for the ad and 7 seemed as good as any. That's my story and I'm sticking to it."

I've actually only quoted it once. I had first included a link to your reply in my original response to the thread, but quickly edited it out as I didn't think it fair to call out specific members without them being involved in the thread.

Honestly, what I didn't like about your question is that you didn't answer it in the way that you did in this post. You're an amazing encyclopedia of aircraft purchasing and ownership information. We can all learn a lot from what you know. But sometimes it just comes out as belittling. I really like you and I know that others here do as well. It's just hard to look at what you wrote to this guy and not read it as belittling and "know it all"...even if you do.




No, they're not allowed to post known inaccuracies. However it's hard to disprove puffery ("best skyhawk kwown to man" stuff)...and there is no point in trying to do so. Feel free to ask questions. It'd just be nice if the questions were friendly. This should be a place where people gather to talk about airplanes and flying. If I were standing on a ramp talking to a guy about an airplane that he was selling, I'd ask him questions and learn about what he was selling. I wouldn't tell him that he's out of his mind. Let's just all be friendly to each other.

This rule is NOT meant to be a blank check for sellers to post anything they want. It's meant to curb people from jumping all over listings to trash them before the conversation has a chance to play out.

 

[Mitzmaster]

Hope I don't start a firestorm with my first post to this board, but...

I'm not sure that comments are necessary or appropriate in the Classifieds section. It's up to the Seller to post enough info to describe the item, and it's up to the Buyer to ask all the relevant questions and determine a fair price. Most of this should happen through direct communication (off the board).

If useful info was left off of the original post, the Seller could update the post as needed.

Discussing and negotiating all the details in full view of a somewhat public audience can turn things into a spectacle. I'm not even sure comments like "Nice plane, Bob!" should be in the Classifieds space.

And leave the (civil) commentary for the other message boards. Just my 2 cents.

- WCS

 

[poadeleted21]

Hope I don't start a firestorm with my first post to this board, but...

I'm not sure that comments are necessary or appropriate in the Classifieds section. It's up to the Seller to post enough info to describe the item, and it's up to the Buyer to ask all the relevant questions and determine a fair price. Most of this should happen through direct communication (off the board).

If useful info was left off of the original post, the Seller could update the post as needed.

Discussing and negotiating all the details in full view of a somewhat public audience can turn things into a spectacle. I'm not even sure comments like "Nice plane, Bob!" should be in the Classifieds space.

And leave the (civil) commentary for the other message boards. Just my 2 cents.

- WCS

I'd argue the exact opposite, you just posted a plane to a discussion forum, I'd be ready for discussion if I were the seller. Me personally, I'd welcome discussion, good or bad.

If you want to sell a plane overpriced by $20,000 or so without criticism and are unwilling to defend why your plane appears to be priced 35% over Vref, eBay is $10 to list, barnstormers is $20.

I personally don't like the new policy, but I don't pay the bills around here. Being a buyer and a seller at them moment, sellers seem to be the sleaziest of the two parties involved and the new policy protects them. A green buyer might not know a rip-off when he sees it and even an unwitting seller might appreciate knowing that people are rolling their eyes at his price. To each his own. We have egos to protect.

 

[steingar]

Case in point, You really don't want the seller of the plane mentioned here
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=936678&postcount=28

listed on this site with nothing but glowing praise and it seems a couple of folks in the gallery would considering purchasing this plane if they had the money.

Your new policy would protect the seller, that plane and those avionics spent time underwater during the TN floods and were pencil whipped back into service. IIRC the seller also played a role in getting his son killed by strapping on the wrong propeller to a plane that subsequently crashed. Then refused to work with the NTSB/FAA on the crash and did all sorts of unscrupulous things. I wouldn't buy it at 1/10th the asking price and would feel I'd be doing a buyer a good service if I stated as much.

I would have no idea who to PM that might be interested in it, and they would have no idea to PM me so that I could point them to the floods and NTSB reports.

In case you're interested, I had a bit of a conversation with this scumbag. I simply mentioned (in a very green sort of way) that his ad had promoted some comment on Mooneyspace. He claimed it was all a bunch of self-styled experts misreading things. I then responded with some very specific questions about the fact that the N-number and instrument layout of the Uboat Mooney matched the panel he was trying to sell. I told him I'd buy it if I could see the logbook entries for the engine and avionics replacement/repair. Haven't heard from him since.

 

[Henning]

I'd argue the exact opposite, you just posted a plane to a discussion forum, I'd be ready for discussion if I were the seller. Me personally, I'd welcome discussion, good or bad.

If you want to sell a plane overpriced by $20,000 or so without criticism and are unwilling to defend why your plane appears to be priced 35% over Vref, eBay is $10 to list, barnstormers is $20.

I personally don't like the new policy, but I don't pay the bills around here. Being a buyer and a seller at them moment, sellers seem to be the sleaziest of the two parties involved and the new policy protects them. A green buyer might not know a rip-off when he sees it and even an unwitting seller might appreciate knowing that people are rolling their eyes at his price. To each his own. We have egos to protect.

I can show where I am priced 25% BELOW the NAAA evaluator yet I get a major harangue and insults over my insanely high price. Is that considered useful discussion?

 

[Jim Logajan]

For what it is worth, I asked one of the MC members if it was OK to post a poll about this subject, both as to the wording of the rule, and whether the community generally agrees or disagrees with the rule, but have not yet heard back on whether it would be allowed.

I would think this would help quantify community views on this so the MC would have some empirical guidance. Likewise, it would be helpful to know how many sellers have complained privately and publicly about negative comments - and how many genuine buyers have complained about positive comments.

 

[poadeleted21]

I can show where I am priced 25% BELOW the NAAA evaluator yet I get a major harangue and insults over my insanely high price. Is that considered useful discussion?

I don't see you getting all emotional over it to a point that rules need to be made to protect your feelings.

Who ever claimed internet forums were for useful discussion?

You seem to defend your price well, there's probably a lot smaller pool of buyers for a decked out 1960 310 than there is for cheap but decent PA28-150.

 

[Henning]

I don't see you getting all emotional over it to a point that rules need to be made to protect your feelings.

Who ever claimed internet forums were for useful discussion?

You seem to defend your price well, there's probably a lot smaller pool of buyers for a decked out 1960 310 than there is for cheap but decent PA28-150.

No, I don't really care, you are correct, and I don't ask for rules to be created to spare my feelings. It does annoy me though that when tit comes to tat, my posts get deleted even when there is no harangue or insult to be found, just a question of how a price is justified.

LOL, I've been on internet discussions since ARPA net days and private BBSs, I have seen a dozen useful discussions in that time.

Facebook may have taken over as the primary traffic of the internet, but the best use is still porn.

 

[Jim Logajan]

I can show where I am priced 25% BELOW the NAAA evaluator yet I get a major harangue and insults over my insanely high price. Is that considered useful discussion?

Insults are already technically against the rules. The only people who can enforce the rules are the MC - the best that the rest of us can do is post our opinions.

As far as I can tell the MC appears to enforce the rules at least under these conditions: a person complains (there is a little red triangle in the lower left of each post that can be used to "Report Post") or a thread goes so far off the end that they finally act by closing it (sometimes well after all the damage that could possibly be done has been done,) or when someone makes certain other kinds of posts, which will result in prompt removals.

 

[Henning]

Insults are already technically against the rules. The only people who can enforce the rules are the MC - the best that the rest of us can do is post our opinions.

As far as I can tell the MC appears to enforce the rules at least under these conditions: a person complains (there is a little red triangle in the lower left of each post that can be used to "Report Post") or a thread goes so far off the end that they finally act by closing it (sometimes well after all the damage that could possibly be done has been done,) or when someone makes certain other kinds of posts, which will result in prompt removals.

The post I made was polite, asked a reasonable question in a reasonable way with no insult or disparagement. I did not once suggest the sellers price was high or out of line. It asked simply the basic questions of setting comparative values, something that could educate everyone especially those considering a purchase. It was even answered quite well, yet my posts got pulled because "they were against the rules" that apparently didn't actually exist at the time. When I was informed that I was mistaken in the other thread when I stated "Sounded like the same rules as always" and that there were no such rules violations that I committed to get my post withdrawn, I was rather amused.

 

[Jim Logajan]

The post I made was polite, asked a reasonable question in a reasonable way with no insult or disparagement. I did not once suggest the sellers price was high or out of line. It asked simply the basic questions of setting comparative values, something that could educate everyone especially those considering a purchase. It was even answered quite well, yet my posts got pulled because "they were against the rules" that apparently didn't actually exist at the time. When I was informed that I was mistaken in the other thread when I stated "Sounded like the same rules as always" and that there were no such rules violations that I committed to get my post withdrawn, I was rather amused.

I sympathize and have observed similar cases over the years. And up to a point I also understand the plight the MC sometimes faces, but notwithstanding their efforts and donated time, it still would be nice to convince them - without insulting them - that mistakes in policy and its execution are being made.

With respect to the classifieds - unlike most others, this is a venue where large amounts of dollars are at stake in single transactions. It's no fun defending an asking price, and you shouldn't have to deal with personal insults or comments on your personal character, but beyond that I think everyone is best served by the following maxims:

Caveat lector.
Caveat emptor.

 

[Henning]

As I said before, I don't care for real, none of this matters for a tinkers damn in life. It's all just entertainment, all thought is good thought, I just find the thinking that happens quite amusing. My favorite part is getting kicked off the board for a week lol, WTF is that supposed to matter? I'm not getting paid for my time or words, BFD.

 

[poadeleted21]

Could be the deal of the century.

http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/for/3135464835.html

 

[Henning]

Could be the deal of the century.

http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/for/3135464835.html

Nice, expect it to need a camshaft though.

 

[poadeleted21]

Nice, expect it to need a camshaft though.

DO NOT CRITICIZE MY POSTS! I WILL REPORT YOU! It's only $22,000 or so above Vref but it's a starting point, I can go up from there if a buyer thinks they're cheating me. The cam is FINE in this plane unless you have proof otherwise, you're just ripping on my posts. Keep your potty mouth away from my posts. You have hurt my feelings and my ego and potentially lost a sale for me. You are violating forum rules and about to become a habitual offender

 

[Henning]

DO NOT CRITICIZE MY POSTS! I WILL REPORT YOU! It's only $22,000 or so above Vref but it's a starting point, I can go up from there if a buyer thinks they're cheating me. The cam is FINE in this plane unless you have proof otherwise, you're just ripping on my posts. Keep your potty mouth away from my posts. You have hurt my feelings and my ego and potentially lost a sale for me. You are violating forum rules and about to become a habitual offender

Not to mention my other offending habits... BTW, I don't have a problem with the price if it's in the condition I expect.

 

[poadeleted21]

Not to mention my other offending habits... BTW, I don't have a problem with the price if it's in the condition I expect.

There's an identical one here 50TT 50SNEW on the engine every screw, rivet and paint molecule in it is original Looks like it left the Cessna factory 2 days ago. They're asking $44K for it, hangared since new. Never been out of annual, They fly it to annual and back EVERY YEAR and that's it. Its been outside of a hangar approx 50 hours of it's life.

 

[Henning]

There's an identical one here 50TT 50SNEW on the engine every screw, rivet and paint molecule in it is original Looks like it left the Cessna factory 2 days ago. They're asking $44K for it, hangared since new. Never been out of annual, They fly it to annual and back EVERY YEAR and that's it. Its been outside of a hangar approx 50 hours of it's life.

Sweet if someone needs a 172, heck if I was looking for a plane for that mission it would be up on my list.

 

[wabower]

If I had to guess, NAAA's disclaimer on TAP might be high on the list of reasons.

Notice: The values calculated by this site are dependent upon the data entered by the user. It is impossible for the National Aircraft Appraiser's Association to verify the accuracy of this data and hence the estimated values should not be viewed as an appraisal.

NAAA Certified Appraisals use a more comprehensive data assessment technique and can only be accomplished by a member of the National Aircraft Appraiser's Association. For information on how to get a Certified Appraisal of your aircraft please contact: National Aircraft Appraiser's Association
naaa@plane-values.com

I can show where I am priced 25% BELOW the NAAA evaluator yet I get a major harangue and insults over my insanely high price. Is that considered useful discussion?

 

[Henning]

No longer an issue, no longer on the market, thank you good night on the topic.

 

[steingar]

I can show where I am priced 25% BELOW the NAAA evaluator yet I get a major harangue and insults over my insanely high price. Is that considered useful discussion?

I would be useful to you if you actually wanted to know why the aircraft hadn't sold.

 

[Jaybird180]

 

[JOhnH]

I have come to this discussion late, and I admit I have not read too many posts, but...

In my opinion, the only thing I don't understand about the rule is the fact that civilized people actually act in such a way that others feel that new rules are necessary.
I hate the rule.
But I hate the fact that it became necessary even more.