New, 2019 DA42-VI or SR22TG6

[Rockymountain]

Many new planes have the hypoxia recognition in some form or another. What nobody has done to my knowledge is prove that if you get hypoxic enough to lose consciousness in the flight levels, long enough to trigger the system that descending to 14500 or even 12,500 wakes you up once you have probably sustained some degree of likely permanent brain injury. So maybe you fly into the Atlantic at 12,500 instead of 25,000. Smaller splash I guess. ;-)

 

[PaulS]

neither. id take the new cessna turbo station air hd. that way i can actually take 4 adults and all their stuff and not have to stop every hour for fuel. sure the cessna is slower but it makes up for it not having to stop twice to go 500 miles. with 4 adults and baggage id only be able to put 40 gallons in the cirrus. if you take 18 gallons for your reserve thats only 22 gallons available..no thanks for a million dollar plane.

but if i had to choose it would be the DA only because ive never flown one and it looks cool.

You've got some big people there, or heavy bags. The 22 normally aspirated I can rent has a 1183 pound useful load. So 2 200 pound males and 2 140 pound females plus 100 pounds of luggage works out to 780 pounds. That leaves about 65 gallons of gas in the tank, which I figure will outlast at least one bladder out of the 4.

 

[PaulS]

Many new planes have the hypoxia recognition in some form or another. What nobody has done to my knowledge is prove that if you get hypoxic enough to lose consciousness in the flight levels, long enough to trigger the system that descending to 14500 or even 12,500 wakes you up once you have probably sustained some degree of likely permanent brain injury. So maybe you fly into the Atlantic at 12,500 instead of 25,000. Smaller splash I guess. ;-)

There are several cases of hypoxic pilots being talked down to lower altitudes by controllers, I don't believe any of them were permanently brain damaged. There are videos on youtube with recordings of the conversations, IIRC once the planes descended out of the 20s the pilots regained their composure quickly.

 

[genna]

Many new planes have the hypoxia recognition in some form or another. What nobody has done to my knowledge is prove that if you get hypoxic enough to lose consciousness in the flight levels, long enough to trigger the system that descending to 14500 or even 12,500 wakes you up once you have probably sustained some degree of likely permanent brain injury. So maybe you fly into the Atlantic at 12,500 instead of 25,000. Smaller splash I guess. ;-)

I don't know if any studies have been done on those specific altitudes, but they are legal FAA oxygen requirement altitudes. One may assume(maybe) that those numbers were not taken out of someone's behind. Also, I don't know what kind of brain damage a person may sustain if they stay high enough within the limits(or just outside i guess) of time of useful consciousness for which these system are calibrated. I suspect that there will likely be no damage. But one must wake up first. For that one needs some oxygen. @ 14000 there may not be enough of it. @12,500 there should be. You are almost definitely not waking up at FL250

 

[EdFred]

That 14000 number is real. Years back I wanted to see how high could take my Cherokee and thought that the number was 14,500 vs 14000 and when I crossed 14,000 over Lake Michigan it was all I could do to stay awake. At 12500 I was fine at 13,500 I was fine but I crossed the 14000 line and it was almost night night time. I stayed there for about 2 minutes before descending back down to 6,000 feet and was still dragging the whole weekend trying to catch up.

 

[Cici]

I fly at 14k all the time, dip to 12.5, back to 14. Of course, i usually spend my summer vacation hiking and climbing mountains in class a airspace. I still follow all rules, but flying high doesnt worry me. I worry more about being hulk slammed into the side of the mountain in a down draft flying 1000' agl over a pass than i do about losing it on o2 where i train to hike....

 

[mtnflyr]

You've got some big people there, or heavy bags. The 22 normally aspirated I can rent has a 1183 pound useful load. So 2 200 pound males and 2 140 pound females plus 100 pounds of luggage works out to 780 pounds. That leaves about 65 gallons of gas in the tank, which I figure will outlast at least one bladder out of the 4.

I do have a big family and friends. I'm 6'5" 260. My brother is 6'8" 235. Heck my mom is 6'3". Generally my friends weigh in around 225.

My point being, if I'm going to spend a million bucks I dont want to even worry about useful load. My parameters are fly two hours with a hour reserve and carry everything including the kitchen sink and be able to fly true at 145 or better. That's my minimum. I can easily fly for more than 2 hours.

With the station air I can fly from the bay area to Utah non stop, 5, sometimes 6 people and everything they want to bring. My buddy in a 22 has to stop at least once.

It just comes down to the mission and what you want and need the plane to do.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Having said that the CEO also told me they have reports from other knowledgeable commercial Diamond DA42 operators they have contacted that the DA42-VI is a LOT better than the NG in this regard, and most of the same problems they also experienced with the earlier model Diamond twin seem to have largely been addressed successfully.

I was gonna say... From what you posted, I can tell that they have one of the old Thielert-powered DA42s. That's a pretty sad story if you spent money on one of them... And it's going to end with hitting TBO, because on those planes it's not TBO, it's TBR: Mandatory replacement. But, Thielert went out of business a decade ago, so there are no replacements. I believe that you can convert them to one of the newer powerplants (I forget if it was the Lycoming, the Austro, or both) but obviously, that isn't going to be cheap.

That situation is the entire reason Austro Engines exists - Diamond got ****ed by Thielert, and decided that they needed to develop their own engines so as to not have to depend on another company to make their customers happy. (Austro is a wholly owned subsidiary of Diamond.)

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That 14000 number is real. Years back I wanted to see how high could take my Cherokee and thought that the number was 14,500 vs 14000 and when I crossed 14,000 over Lake Michigan it was all I could do to stay awake. At 12500 I was fine at 13,500 I was fine but I crossed the 14000 line and it was almost night night time. I stayed there for about 2 minutes before descending back down to 6,000 feet and was still dragging the whole weekend trying to catch up.

Everyone's line will be in a different place, but 14,000 is a good "hard stop" for everyone. I crossed at 14,000 without O2 once - Well, maybe more than once, but one crossing in the DA40 was particularly memorable for how crappy it made me feel. Felt like a fish out of water. Heart was beating hard - Not super fast, but ka-WHUMP! ka-WHUMP!

Hypoxia is funny stuff. It affects everyone differently both in terms of altitude and in terms of symptoms, and it can affect you differently on different days. I've done the altitude chamber training at FAA HQ in OKC, which I highly recommend - It was fun and interesting. They listed off a handful of potential symptoms and they ask you about them, but I've found, both there and in airplanes, that my personal reaction tends to be kind of a weird mix of several of them, in a way that you wouldn't say "I feel oxygen starved" but it's a subtle part of this overall feeling that I now know is my personal reaction to hypoxia.

Generally I do OK at legal altitudes, but there was a time where I was headed out to the Wings FlyBQ in the Mooney at 11,000 feet. I had climbed up to 11,000 after Gary, and stayed there for the remainder of the flight. I think it was when Cleveland Center handed me to New York Center that when I went to check in, I *knew* I was at 11,000 and that was the correct altitude, but looking at the altimeter I swore it said 10,000. So, I checked in and started sucking on oxygen. I think I may have not gotten much sleep the night before, so maybe that worsened my reaction.

Whatever you do... Be careful. Treat it like icing: At the first sign of a problem, get out.

 

[GRG55]

I was gonna say... From what you posted, I can tell that they have one of the old Thielert-powered DA42s. That's a pretty sad story if you spent money on one of them... And it's going to end with hitting TBO, because on those planes it's not TBO, it's TBR: Mandatory replacement. But, Thielert went out of business a decade ago, so there are no replacements. I believe that you can convert them to one of the newer powerplants (I forget if it was the Lycoming, the Austro, or both) but obviously, that isn't going to be cheap.

That situation is the entire reason Austro Engines exists - Diamond got ****ed by Thielert, and decided that they needed to develop their own engines so as to not have to depend on another company to make their customers happy. (Austro is a wholly owned subsidiary of Diamond.)

The DA42 NG they had is not Thielert powered. None of the NGs are.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

The DA42 NG they had is not Thielert powered. None of the NGs are.

True. Early Austro powerplants may not have been vastly different from Thielerts. But we're speaking of new aircraft here, and the Austros have now been in service for well over a decade. One would hope that they have the fiddly bits fixed (but don't windmill start your DA62 unless you have about five grand extra in your pocket!)

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The DA42 NG they had is not Thielert powered. None of the NGs are.

You mentioned a clutch being replaced, though. The Austros don't have the clutch, the Thielerts do. Are you sure they have an NG? What's the tail #?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

but don't windmill start your DA62 unless you have about five grand extra in your pocket!)

What happens?

 

[Rockymountain]

Don't extrapolate the effects of hypoxia coming down unconscious from 25,000 feet to 12,500 as being the same as coming from sea level and noting the effects of hypoxia at 12,500 feet. Going up you are starting with a healthy brain, and a healthy respiratory center that will hyperventilate to compensate for hypoxia. Coming down, those respiratory centers may not be working normally, and the brain is already stunned, lose the hyperventilatory response and no guarantee that you wake up. These experiments have not been done to my knowledge, and would be just that, an experiment. I have hypoxia recognition in my aircraft as well, along with a multitude of safety systems, but I am not banking on it to save my bacon on a bad day. ;-)

 

[zaitcev]

These experiments have not been done to my knowledge, and would be just that, an experiment.

There were some. I knew a guy was sucked up into a cloud in a 172 between Phoenix and Albuquerque. He said that he set his autopilot to wings level, and his wife went to sleep. But he remained awake when the cloud spit them out at 16000.

 

[PaulS]

Don't extrapolate the effects of hypoxia coming down unconscious from 25,000 feet to 12,500 as being the same as coming from sea level and noting the effects of hypoxia at 12,500 feet. Going up you are starting with a healthy brain, and a healthy respiratory center that will hyperventilate to compensate for hypoxia. Coming down, those respiratory centers may not be working normally, and the brain is already stunned, lose the hyperventilatory response and no guarantee that you wake up. These experiments have not been done to my knowledge, and would be just that, an experiment. I have hypoxia recognition in my aircraft as well, along with a multitude of safety systems, but I am not banking on it to save my bacon on a bad day. ;-)

Nobody in their right mind would bank on a system like that to save their bacon, BUT it is a great piece of technology should an accident happen and you need it. There have been several cases of pilots being incapacitated by what the investigators think was hypoxia, a system like this is better than nothing and flying until your fuel runs out, much better.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

You guys are funny. Cirrus has a system in the perspective system that monitors your altitude and interaction with the avionics. If it notices that you haven't pushed a button or turned a knob in a while, it will prompt you with "Are you alert?" If you are, then you push a button. If you are not, the airplane will automatically descend to a safer altitude.

https://cirrusaircraft.com/cirrus-perspective/

Pilot falls asleep and crashes into mountain

 

[timwinters]

You guys can seriously tolerate the looks of the Diamond?



Seriously?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You guys can seriously tolerate the looks of the Diamond?

View attachment 72834

Seriously?

They're much better looking when they don't have that god-awful Embry-Riddle paint job.

 

[PaulS]

Pilot falls asleep and crashes into mountain

He had a really bad day and should have stayed home and played the lottery instead of flying.

 

[PilotRPI]

You guys can seriously tolerate the looks of the Diamond?

View attachment 72834

Seriously?

Looks to me like a crazy, ****ed off sperm wearing shades. Cirrus looks more like a normal one.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

He had a really bad day and should have stayed home and played the lottery instead of flying.

I guess. But you are missing the point.

 

[timwinters]

Looks to me like a crazy, ****ed off sperm wearing shades. Cirrus looks more like a normal one.

Like we used to say in high school...

"There's butt ugly and then there's monkey butt ugly and that, my friend, is monkey butt ugly."

 

[mondtster]

You guys can seriously tolerate the looks of the Diamond?

View attachment 72834

Seriously?

Yes. Particularly once you start working on them and see that they’re well thought out and fit and finish is excellent.

I’m not 100% sold on the Diesel engines being viable long term however. Will parts be readily available 30 years from now like they are for most Lycoming and Continental engines? We shall see. And if parts are not available, will a replacement engine be approved and available? At what cost?

But these concerns are likely not concerns of a buyer buying a brand new airplane. If they get 10 years of use out of it and sell the plane, the problems become someone else’s.

 

[asicer]

You guys can seriously tolerate the looks of the Diamond?

Seriously?

Non-pilots seem to really like the looks. The ones I've talked to seem to think they're ultra-modern.

 

[genna]

Purely on looks. I like how SR looks but, from pictures, I like the Diamond better

My non pilot wife - who is a fan of SR - also likes the look of the Diamond better.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

You guys can seriously tolerate the looks of the Diamond?

View attachment 72834

Seriously?

Compared to a Baron or Seneca? Heck yeah. I even like the Cirrus Vision pollywog. But the DA62 is a bit more even in proportions, so one should consider spending the extra third of a million (or more) if looks are that important! Personally, I don't care what anyone else thinks (which is why my hair is growing to @TedDuPuis length at my advanced age) and I can't see the outside of any aircraft while I am flying it!

 

[EdFred]

You guys can seriously tolerate the looks of the Diamond?

View attachment 72834

Seriously?

Looks waaaaaay better than those raggedy ass planes with straight tails on them.

 

[zaitcev]

You guys can seriously tolerate the looks of the Diamond?

It is very modern looking. Almost as good as Pantera, which does not even exist. I think the only strike against the looks is the ventral fin.

BTW, an Ukrainian reconnaissance DA-42 took videos of Russian positions in Crimea in 2014 (it's the video where Russians didn't dare to shoot it down, but pointed their lasers at it). It is 2019 now, or 5 years since enlisted monkeys were capable to keeping a diesel Diamond in the air. I'm sure there's no insurmountable problem with reliability of that airplane.

I would still get a Cirrus, of course, purely for rational reasons. Chute can save your hide in a larger spectrum of circumstances, the emergency response is within means of an average pilot, and of course the parking problem. Looks are not in its favour though.

 

[EdFred]

The only thing weird about that Diamond is the upside down dorsal fin. Other than that I'm good with it. Even the Cirrus looks good. Just not applicable for the strip I mainly fly to. Neither one is really.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The only thing weird about that Diamond is the upside down dorsal fin. Other than that I'm good with it. Even the Cirrus looks good. Just not applicable for the strip I mainly fly to. Neither one is really.

I would take the DA42 over the SR22 for 6Y9 any day. The wheel pants on the fixed-gear composite birds are very low to the ground, and pretty fragile as well, and the SR22 would almost certainly have 'em shattered after you landed at 6Y9 a few times. The DA42 does have the performance to do it, and has really stout retractable gear, so no worries about pants.

 

[PaulS]

I would take the DA42 over the SR22 for 6Y9 any day. The wheel pants on the fixed-gear composite birds are very low to the ground, and pretty fragile as well, and the SR22 would almost certainly have 'em shattered after you landed at 6Y9 a few times. The DA42 does have the performance to do it, and has really stout retractable gear, so no worries about pants.

Always can pull those wheel pants off!

 

[genna]

Always can pull those wheel pants off!

15kts loss at least

 

[GRG55]

You mentioned a clutch being replaced, though. The Austros don't have the clutch, the Thielerts do. Are you sure they have an NG? What's the tail #?

Seriously? No I am not going to breach the confidentiality of the owner company by posting the tail number on a public forum.

It's a DA42 NG. Here's a picture from one of its earlier "tours of duty" in the maintenance shop. I've posted pics of this thing on other past threads when the topic of Diamonds has come up.

Spoke to one of the techs that (used to) take care of this thing (it's in London at Diamond now). What I referred to as a "clutch" is actually the torsional vibration dampener assembly the fits between the engine and gearbox. Both sides had to be replaced at 1200 hours when they didn't pass their second scheduled 600 hour interval inspection. The tech said the mechanics who were in his last Diamond sponsored maintenance clinic are all dealing with failures of the same engine accessory components as this airplane.

True. Early Austro powerplants may not have been vastly different from Thielerts. But we're speaking of new aircraft here, and the Austros have now been in service for well over a decade. One would hope that they have the fiddly bits fixed (but don't windmill start your DA62 unless you have about five grand extra in your pocket!)

LOL. Manufacturer's longer TBO notwithstanding, you have absolutely no tangible evidence things with the accessories are any better now. You won't know until someone puts a thousand or two thousand hours on a new DA42.

Quite frankly, if I wanted to be a lab rat in an auto conversion science experiment I'd be inclined towards an E-AB. Paying what Diamond charges for one of these babies one has a right to expect better.

Oh, btw, the final insult was the bearing on the serpentine belt tensioner on one engine failing in flight. It's a sealed bearing (automotive component, of course) and not able to be serviced or inspected. When it fails the alternator and the water pump stop working. That's a hard stop condition for the engine. Good thing there's a spare on the other wing.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Always can pull those wheel pants off!

At least on the Diamonds... But they don't look nearly as good without them.

I'm sure you *can* take them off an SR22, but I've never seen an SR22 without pants. Plus, you lose a fair bit of speed.

Me, I'll take the retracts. Best of all worlds: No pants to shred, but even better speed than with pants.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Quite frankly, if I wanted to be a lab rat in an auto conversion science experiment I'd be inclined towards an E-AB. Paying what Diamond charges for one of these babies one has a right to expect better.

Sadly, it seems you're right, despite the commonality with the single and the excellent record we've had with the club's 40. I flew a friend's DA42-VI for about 4 hours this past weekend. It's a really nice plane, but he's thinking of selling it because of a bunch of problems he's had with it.