Neuro CogScreen Partial Fail...

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SoCalFlyer11234

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Hey Aviation friends....wonder if anyone has ever been in the same boat (or plane) as me...

I have slipped memory issues according to the CogScreen; The Neuro wants to do a more detailed, one-on-one testing scenario...verbal/face to face...
Has anyone else been through this process? I didn't find the CogScreen terribly challenging, but recall BACKWARDS is a challenge in general....

Not worried about dropping another $1200 on the test, just worried about that'll I'll blank or freeze...

Thanks for any input...

B
 
SoCalFlyer11234 said:
Hey Aviation friends....wonder if anyone has ever been in the same boat (or plane) as me...

I have slipped memory issues according to the CogScreen; The Neuro wants to do a more detailed, one-on-one testing scenario...verbal/face to face...
Has anyone else been through this process? I didn't find the CogScreen terribly challenging, but recall BACKWARDS is a challenge in general....

Not worried about dropping another $1200 on the test, just worried about that'll I'll blank or freeze...

Thanks for any input...

B
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so if the psych wants to give you the whole battery it’s because you cannot get a “pass” on how you did I’n the screening battery..... Not much choice, here.....

Rest up, be relaxed and use the force, Luke.
 
I’ve done cogscreen 5 times. 1st time I did poorly and had to do the big battery of tests and they deferred me for another year anyway. Second time I did ok on cogscreen and they made me do the big battery and approved me for special issuance. 3rd and 4th time I did ok. 5th time I did lousy. I fear I won’t be able to exercise privileges of my 3rd class Medical Certification ever again.

Remember Cogscreen is FAA’s baby. They commissioned and paid for its development. I’m pretty sure The key component of the cogscreen is your score’s correlation with the group of brain damaged airmen. If the correlation is high they will defer you no matter how you do on the battery.

Good luck!
 
Eric L said:
I’ve done cogscreen 5 times. 1st time I did poorly and had to do the big battery of tests and they deferred me for another year anyway. Second time I did ok on cogscreen and they made me do the big battery and approved me for special issuance. 3rd and 4th time I did ok. 5th time I did lousy. I fear I won’t be able to exercise privileges of my 3rd class Medical Certification ever again.

Remember Cogscreen is FAA’s baby. They commissioned and paid for its development.
Click to expand...
Not true. It was Dr. Kay's graduate Ph.D. project
I’m pretty sure The key component of the cogscreen is your score’s correlation with the group of brain damaged airmen. If the correlation is high they will defer you no matter how you do on the battery.
Click to expand...
Completely the opposite. If you do well on the cogscreen, 100% of full batteries make standards. If you do poorly on the cogscreen, the batter acquits a good number.
Good luck!
Click to expand...
Go with a GOOD night's sleep and not even an OTC cold medication in your system.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
I cannot emphasize how much a good night's sleep is for this test. I royally screwed up by presenting to the full battery of tests with about 60% of my usual sleep (nerves and staying in a crap hotel). Now 6 months later I have a withdrawn Special issuance and waiting for the FAA's consultant to review my file. With the longer delays at the FAA, a screw up on these test could put you in a holding pattern for a LONG time. Not worth it! If the neuropsychologist will let you split the tests up over 2 days, it might be worth it!

In regards to the full battery of tests - here is the list but there is little information online about them.

  • CogScreen-Aeromedical Edition (CogScreen-AE)
  • The complete Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scales (Processing Speed and Working Memory Indexes must be scored)
  • Trail Making Test, Parts A and B (Reitan Trails A & B should be used since aviation norms are available for the original Reitan Trails A & B, but not for similar tests [e.g., Color Trails; Trails from Kaplan-Delis Executive Function, etc.])
  • Executive function tests to include:
    1. Category Test or Wisconsin Card Sorting Test, and
    2. Stroop Color-Word Test
  • Paced Auditory Serial Addition Test (PASAT).
  • A continuous performance test (i.e., Test of Variables of Attention [TOVA], or Conners' Continuous Performance Test [CPT-II], or Integrated Visual and Auditory Continuous Performance Test [IVA+]), or Gordon Diagnostic System [GDS].
  • Test of verbal memory (WMS-IV subtests, Rey Auditory Verbal Learning Test, or California Verbal Learning Test-II)
  • Test of visual memory (WMS-IV subtests, Brief Visuospatial Memory Test-Revised, or Rey Complex Figure Test)
  • Tests of Language including Boston Naming Test and Verbal Fluency (COWAT and a semantic fluency task)
  • Psychomotor testing including Finger Tapping and Grooved Pegboard or Purdue Pegboard
  • Personality testing, to include the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI-2). (The MMPI-2-RF is not an approved substitute. All scales, subscales, content, and supplementary scales must be scored and provided. Computer scoring is required. Abbreviated administrations are not acceptable.
Feel free to PM with other questions and good luck!
 
So here goes...
Long story short, I lost my medical due to a brief period of muscle weakness, caused by a minor stroke, due to a PFO. Within a week I was back to work. The PFO was repaired and I'm back to MTB and MX, but not flying. Two years later, as I try to renew my medical, the FAA comes at me with all guns-a-blazing, asking for all the tests Navid listed, and many more. I know my shortcomings so I haven't applied to be a walk-in controller at LaGuardia but heck, "normal" pilots from the majors with 40 years of flying seem to barely score at the 50th percentile. How am I, a mere mortal to surmount such an obstacle. My wife won't play "Memory" with me because she knows she will win, but I've flown in the LAX area airspace for 25 years without incident. I sucked at "Memory " back then, and I suck at it now.
Recently, I took an appropriately rated pilot (Boeing 777) with me in a flight around LA in my little Cessna. "Geeze, you need to get your medical back..." was his comment. After looking into all the parameters of the NeuroCogscreen-AE etc., I seriously think 90% of pilots wouldn't get a medical if they had to pass this.
So my short story long, any source of information that could improve my chances of passing would be most welcome. And if there is any interest in my experience going through this, I can check in as well.
Blue Skies to you...
 
AV82NVIGOR8 said:
So here goes...
Long story short, I lost my medical due to a brief period of muscle weakness, caused by a minor stroke, due to a PFO. Within a week I was back to work. The PFO was repaired and I'm back to MTB and MX, but not flying. Two years later, as I try to renew my medical, the FAA comes at me with all guns-a-blazing, asking for all the tests Navid listed, and many more. I know my shortcomings so I haven't applied to be a walk-in controller at LaGuardia but heck, "normal" pilots from the majors with 40 years of flying seem to barely score at the 50th percentile. How am I, a mere mortal to surmount such an obstacle. My wife won't play "Memory" with me because she knows she will win, but I've flown in the LAX area airspace for 25 years without incident. I sucked at "Memory " back then, and I suck at it now.
Recently, I took an appropriately rated pilot (Boeing 777) with me in a flight around LA in my little Cessna. "Geeze, you need to get your medical back..." was his comment. After looking into all the parameters of the NeuroCogscreen-AE etc., I seriously think 90% of pilots wouldn't get a medical if they had to pass this.
So my short story long, any source of information that could improve my chances of passing would be most welcome. And if there is any interest in my experience going through this, I can check in as well.
Blue Skies to you...
Click to expand...

You’re right about the tests, but if the FAA got rid of them then nobody would make any money. Its all about the money
 
Jonathan Stein said:
You’re right about the tests, but if the FAA got rid of them then nobody would make any money. Its all about the money
Click to expand...

No, it's not about the money, it's about liability. If the FAA has the slightest inkling you may have a problem, it is your burden to prove otherwise, they don't get any money from the screening process. This is coming from someone who has recently completed the $3,600 full cogscreen-ae.
 
MalibuJim said:
No, it's not about the money, it's about liability. If the FAA has the slightest inkling you may have a problem, it is your burden to prove otherwise, they don't get any money from the screening process. This is coming from someone who has recently completed the $3,600 full cogscreen-ae.
Click to expand...

Is that why they didn’t include instrument training in their new sports license?

Removed being able to recover from a stall from everything else?

Eliminated spin training ages ago?


Because if we are using facts and logic, those three kill tons more than being forgetful or ADHD and the like, speaking of which is there a single NTSB where a crash was caused by ADHD?
 
James331 said:
Is that why they didn’t include instrument training in their new sports license?

Removed being able to recover from a stall from everything else?

Eliminated spin training ages ago?


Because if we are using facts and logic, those three kill tons more than being forgetful or ADHD and the like, speaking of which is there a single NTSB where a crash was caused by ADHD?
Click to expand...

Exactly. Where’s all the evidence proving that people with ADD/ADHD are not fit to fly? There are thousands of professional and general aviation pilots that have ADHD that have not been formally diagnosed and have zero problems with being a safe and competent pilot. I even know pilots that have been diagnosed and there is absolutely no way it impacts there ability to be an airman. I took the full cog screen battery 6 months ago and did great on it.
The actual aviation medical exam itself is a complete joke. If they were really concerned with liability they would actually do a thorough exam which would include blood work and a full work up. They don’t even do a drug screen as part of the physical. Even the coast guard requires a 5 panel DOT drug test to hold a medical certificate to captain a boat. Imagine that, you need to take a drug test to drive a boat but the morons at the FAA don’t require one to be able to fly a plane over wherever they want. They are definitely concerned about liability to some extent but ultimately they just want all there boxes checked and the proper paperwork filed. Absolute joke
 
AV82NVIGOR8 said:
So here goes...
Long story short, I lost my medical due to a brief period of muscle weakness, caused by a minor stroke, due to a PFO. Within a week I was back to work. The PFO was repaired and I'm back to MTB and MX, but not flying. Two years later, as I try to renew my medical, the FAA comes at me with all guns-a-blazing, asking for all the tests Navid listed, and many more. I know my shortcomings so I haven't applied to be a walk-in controller at LaGuardia but heck, "normal" pilots from the majors with 40 years of flying seem to barely score at the 50th percentile. How am I, a mere mortal to surmount such an obstacle. My wife won't play "Memory" with me because she knows she will win, but I've flown in the LAX area airspace for 25 years without incident. I sucked at "Memory " back then, and I suck at it now.
Recently, I took an appropriately rated pilot (Boeing 777) with me in a flight around LA in my little Cessna. "Geeze, you need to get your medical back..." was his comment. After looking into all the parameters of the NeuroCogscreen-AE etc., I seriously think 90% of pilots wouldn't get a medical if they had to pass this.
So my short story long, any source of information that could improve my chances of passing would be most welcome. And if there is any interest in my experience going through this, I can check in as well.
Blue Skies to you...
Click to expand...
 
Why you guys always bring up Spin training I will never know. The FAA got rid of it because the ****ing training was killing more Airmen than accidental spins. You get into a spin by accident you’re almost certainly cross controlled base to final and you and whoever is with you is going to die. Bob Hoover himself could’t recover from that. What kind of cognitive dissonance keeps a thing like that out of someone’s head I will never understand.
 
I thought about taking the Cogscreen for my own benefit. Baseline, decide when I might be unsafe, etc. Then my granddaughter took it (concussion from a riding (horse) fall). She passed, but her comment was that her hands hurt after taking the test. Decided the arthritis in my hands might affect the test and gave that idea up.
 
steingar said:
Why you guys always bring up Spin training I will never know. The FAA got rid of it because the ****ing training was killing more Airmen than accidental spins. You get into a spin by accident you’re almost certainly cross controlled base to final and you and whoever is with you is going to die. Bob Hoover himself could’t recover from that. What kind of cognitive dissonance keeps a thing like that out of someone’s head I will never understand.
Click to expand...
The dissonance, Professor, is as follows:
I think particulary in a Mooney, you should have spin training. It's specially violent, and I would not do it in a Mooney. In fact I was spun by a then DPE (from 10,000) and I learned that I have to "remember" which way it went over- because once over it goes inverted unless you relieve the elevator very very early in the rotation.

And if you get confused you die. There, I said it.

(Also a professor of a different sort)
 
jstone said:
Exactly. Where’s all the evidence proving that people with ADD/ADHD are not fit to fly? There are thousands of professional and general aviation pilots that have ADHD that have not been formally diagnosed and have zero problems with being a safe and competent pilot. I even know pilots that have been diagnosed and there is absolutely no way it impacts there ability to be an airman. I took the full cog screen battery 6 months ago and did great on it.
Click to expand...
The evidence: I flew with a student the other week; he had 36 hours, Five CFIs refused to sign him for solo.
He could pitch for airspeed and sometimes power to the runway.
But give him a 3 tier task, (45 degree banked turn at 3,000 feet)....not a chance despite 10 training entries in his book.
Legacy Dad comes in to harass me- and basically admitted that he did the kid's MedXpress and left all sorts of stuff off.

What do you think the kid had? Is it really a guess?
It's a spectrum, and the bottom roughly 15% have no business in the air.
 
bbchien said:
The evidence: I flew with a student the other week; he had 36 hours, Five CFIs refused to sign him for solo.
He could pitch for airspeed and sometimes power to the runway.
But give him a 3 tier task, (45 degree banked turn at 3,000 feet)....not a chance despite 10 training entries in his book.
Legacy Dad comes in to harass me- and basically admitted that he did the kid's MedXpress and left all sorts of stuff off.

What do you think the kid had? Is it really a guess?
It's a spectrum, and the bottom roughly 15% have no business in the air.
Click to expand...
A related question: If an AME learns that someone has fudged the information on their medical, even through a third party, can the AME invalidate the medical on the spot, even if he/she didn't issue? Or does it all have to go through OK City?
 
bbchien said:
The dissonance, Professor, is as follows:
I think particulary in a Mooney, you should have spin training. It's specially violent, and I would not do it in a Mooney. In fact I was spun by a then DPE (from 10,000) and I learned that I have to "remember" which way it went over- because once over it goes inverted unless you relieve the elevator very very early in the rotation.

And if you get confused you die. There, I said it.

(Also a professor of a different sort)
Click to expand...
I’ve read stories of test pilots spinning Mooneys, and the best description I can come up with is harrowing. Don’t plan on doing any of that any time soon. Like I said, you get into a spin you’re probably in a place where all the skills in the world won’t get you back out. Better to know where the stall is and keep the hell away from it. Lots of pilots are frightened to fly their Mooneys slow. I’m not, but I can’t entirely blame them. There are some significant daemons in that corner of the flight envelope.
 
steingar said:
Why you guys always bring up Spin training I will never know. The FAA got rid of it because the ****ing training was killing more Airmen than accidental spins. You get into a spin by accident you’re almost certainly cross controlled base to final and you and whoever is with you is going to die. Bob Hoover himself could’t recover from that. What kind of cognitive dissonance keeps a thing like that out of someone’s head I will never understand.
Click to expand...

Well... Spin training is more fun and less boring than XC, so there's that...

Rich
 
bbchien said:
The evidence: I flew with a student the other week; he had 36 hours, Five CFIs refused to sign him for solo.
He could pitch for airspeed and sometimes power to the runway.
But give him a 3 tier task, (45 degree banked turn at 3,000 feet)....not a chance despite 10 training entries in his book.
Legacy Dad comes in to harass me- and basically admitted that he did the kid's MedXpress and left all sorts of stuff off.

What do you think the kid had? Is it really a guess?
It's a spectrum, and the bottom roughly 15% have no business in the air.
Click to expand...
Kind of sounds like this student might not have an actual interest in flying and his dad is just pushing it on him. If he’s a teenager he proabably wants to make his dad happy. I’ll agree with you about the bottom %15 should be nowhere near an airplane and maybe your student is part of that 15%, but I guarantee you I can find numerous people that would have the same level of trouble with the same amount of training as the student you’re talking about, but don’t have adhd. You can usually tell these “space cadets” apart just thru normal conversation without spending >$3000 on tests. Maybe the FAA should conduct a SODA to determine if a potential airman is fit to fly
 
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Jonathan Stein said:
Kind of sounds like this student might not have an actual interest in flying and his dad is just pushing it on him. If he’s a teenager he proabably wants to make his dad happy. I’ll agree with you about the bottom %15 should be nowhere near an airplane and maybe your student is part of that 15%, but I guarantee you I can find numerous people that would have the same level of trouble with the same amount of training as the student you’re talking about, but don’t have adhd. You can usually tell these “space cadets” apart just thru normal conversation without spending >$3000 on tests. Maybe the FAA should conduct a SODA to determine if a potential airman is fit to fly
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They do. If you barely pass, to get renewals they want to see CFI training reports....
 
Lindberg said:
Sure, if all your flying is cruise and traffic patterns.
Click to expand...
If you get into a spin in a normal traffic paternal base to final you're only a few hundred feet off the ground. Next time you're performing spins, get into one and recover, see how much altitude you loose. Oh, and do leave a few seconds to process the fact that you've accidentally gotten into a spin. See how much altitude you loose.

Better yet, keep your damn speed up in the pattern, and keep the ball centered.
 
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An airplane can stall at any speed. I haven't spun an airplane, but want to do it. Will probably do it this year in a qualified airplane with a qualified instructor, part of avoiding something is understanding how it happens.
 
steingar said:
If you get into a spin in a normal traffic paternal base to final you're only a few hundred feet off the ground. Next time you're performing spins, get into one and recover, see how much altitude you loose. Oh, and do leave a few seconds to process the fact that you've accidentally gotten into a spin. See how much latitude you loose.

Better yet, keep your damn speed up in the pattern, and keep the ball centered.
Click to expand...
You made the claim that spins "almost certainly" only happen when turning base to final. I say that's true only if all your flying is traffic patterns and cruise.
 
Lindberg said:
You made the claim that spins "almost certainly" only happen when turning base to final. I say that's true only if all your flying is traffic patterns and cruise.
Click to expand...
I probably typed wonky. Happens. Most stall spin accidents happen in the pattern at altitudes too low for recovery. I suspect most are due to pilots getting distracted and loosing track of their airspeed. I said it before, if you really think you can recover from a stall spin in the pattern, try it at altitude and let us know. I only ask you do a four count to simulate the time it takes for you to realize you're in a spin.
 
I have actual experience of an accidental spin with no prior training......the year was 1969 and I had about 12 hours in 150's. ($12 hour wet for a new plane). Was out over south Palm Canyon PSP.....it was hot so I took a anti seasick pill which of course I had no clue made you sleepy. I was going through the power on/off stall series and steep turns etc.....fortunately I was at 3,500ft when I held a power on stall a bit too long and steep, ailerons stalled which flipped me over to a vertical spin. My first thought was this looks just like the WW2 movies. I was wound up and heading for the desert. I got out at 700ft with airspeed pegged at 175knots.......altitude loss was 2,800ft......so that puts me about 2,500ft underground on a base to final turn. On the bright side my buddy who was watching from the airport thought I put on a really great airshow.
 
Navid Ghavami said:
I cannot emphasize how much a good night's sleep is for this test. I royally screwed up by presenting to the full battery of tests with about 60% of my usual sleep (nerves and staying in a crap hotel). Now 6 months later I have a withdrawn Special issuance and waiting for the FAA's consultant to review my file. With the longer delays at the FAA, a screw up on these test could put you in a holding pattern for a LONG time. Not worth it! If the neuropsychologist will let you split the tests up over 2 days, it might be worth it!

In regards to the full battery of tests - here is the list but there is little information online about them.

  • CogScreen-Aeromedical Edition (CogScreen-AE)
  • The complete Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scales (Processing Speed and Working Memory Indexes must be scored)
  • Trail Making Test, Parts A and B (Reitan Trails A & B should be used since aviation norms are available for the original Reitan Trails A & B, but not for similar tests [e.g., Color Trails; Trails from Kaplan-Delis Executive Function, etc.])
  • Executive function tests to include:
    1. Category Test or Wisconsin Card Sorting Test, and
    2. Stroop Color-Word Test
  • Paced Auditory Serial Addition Test (PASAT).
  • A continuous performance test (i.e., Test of Variables of Attention [TOVA], or Conners' Continuous Performance Test [CPT-II], or Integrated Visual and Auditory Continuous Performance Test [IVA+]), or Gordon Diagnostic System [GDS].
  • Test of verbal memory (WMS-IV subtests, Rey Auditory Verbal Learning Test, or California Verbal Learning Test-II)
  • Test of visual memory (WMS-IV subtests, Brief Visuospatial Memory Test-Revised, or Rey Complex Figure Test)
  • Tests of Language including Boston Naming Test and Verbal Fluency (COWAT and a semantic fluency task)
  • Psychomotor testing including Finger Tapping and Grooved Pegboard or Purdue Pegboard
  • Personality testing, to include the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI-2). (The MMPI-2-RF is not an approved substitute. All scales, subscales, content, and supplementary scales must be scored and provided. Computer scoring is required. Abbreviated administrations are not acceptable.
Feel free to PM with other questions and good luck!
Click to expand...
Thanks I took cognitive test passed half retook and didn't pass want to get flying job I flew for the airlines
 
Patrick Joyce said:
Thanks I took cognitive test passed half retook and didn't pass want to get flying job I flew for the airlines
Click to expand...
Patrick,
What did you have to do to be able to retake portions? My daughter just did the assessment and was "below average" in a couple of sections. The psychologist told her the AME Doctor would have to decide if he would let her retake. However, they have you take some kind of class prior to you retaking the test. She hasn't talked with the AME Doctor yet, but thought I'd ask you after reading about your similar situation.
Thanks!
 
Kris B. said:
Patrick,
What did you have to do to be able to retake portions? My daughter just did the assessment and was "below average" in a couple of sections. The psychologist told her the AME Doctor would have to decide if he would let her retake. However, they have you take some kind of class prior to you retaking the test. She hasn't talked with the AME Doctor yet, but thought I'd ask you after reading about your similar situation.
Thanks!
Click to expand...

The AME has no say in this situation. It will come from Oak City. That being said, I can pretty much guarantee they will want a full battery. Find a good neuropsychologist, particularly one that deals with aeromedical issues.
 
Like practically everything faa this test is NOTHING but administrative.

Find gouge, study like you’re cheating, be done. Don’t try to make sense of it, all the sections are just weird isms, for some weird reason. Do them, forget them, accomplish next task.

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree being well fed and rested is GOOD. Also a clear mind. Don’t be thinking the results mean ANYTHING, they don’t, merely an administrative pass/fail. If you can “cheat” to pass, you haven’t suddenly made yourself some unsafe pilot…. you simply moved an administrative task forward.

Conversely, if you do well, it doesn’t mean much either. If ya got to do it, then either do or don’t for your own personal reasons. Just don’t confuse safety or any practical flying skills with it.

It needs to go, it will go, it will take a lot of time. Until then, it’s just a REALLY weird administrative task.
 
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