Need help accessing damage!!!

Dave Theisen said:
Could have been worse.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19382&highlight=sad+sight
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Yes, thankfully that did not happen. In my case, my wife smelt the smoke/burning smell and I shut down the plane and yelled for the guys to turn off and unplug the cart. We all jumped out of the plane as a safety precaution and as soon as I felt it was safe, started assessing the damage.

I do have another question for anyone who knows, what neutralizes the battery acid of a plane? While I did clean it up, I would feel better to mix up a solution that will neutralize the residue to avoid structural damage long term.
 
As for who's fault it is, it gets down to this in my opinion, if you pay for a service and that services ruins your property then the service provider is liable. A few examples, car wash washes your new BMW with a rag that was full of mud and it scratched the hell out of your car! You get an annual on your plane, mechanic says he greased front bearings yet the next time you fly the wheel locks up and you loose a strut/prop and engine. It seems some would say it was their responsibility to make sure both service providers were using the proper equipment before during and after the service took place and as driver/owner to make sure they knew what they were doing. In my opinion, if I am going to have to babysit someone doing their job, I am for one not going to hire them in the first time and two would just do it myself.

That being said, out of protection of our personal property we work hard to pay for, it does make sense when practical to "double check" to avoid these types of situations to begin with, not a "PIC" but as owners of property we want to keep intact. I know I will install a placard as one of the threads I read mentioned and look at the power unit when possible to help avoid this situation again, but in the end, the service provider needs to be trained on the service they offer!
 
jsadamson1 said:
I do have another question for anyone who knows, what neutralizes the battery acid of a plane? While I did clean it up, I would feel better to mix up a solution that will neutralize the residue to avoid structural damage long term.
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Baking soda and water, lots and lots of water
 
Teller1900 said:
He may not have to answer to a chief pilot like I do, but he has to answer to himself and to his insurance company (are they really going to be happy with "well they told me it would be OK?) and perhaps to a wife.
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If your wife took the car to the shop to have them change the oil - and instead of putting in oil they put in water - would you hold your wife liable for that? Or would you be raising hell with the shop?
 
dell30rb said:
Disagree. Do you need to know how to drive and operate the fuel truck before you ask the line guy to put fuel in your airplane? Do you need to know what all the switches and buttons and vents are on the fuel truck in order to let someone else put 100LL in your plane?

You tell the guy to put 100LL in the plane and then you let him do his job. Check the plane after he is done to make sure it was done right.

Tell the guy you need a 12volt jump and you get your jump and then check the plane to make sure it was done right.

There are alot of different types of carts out there. Do I need to know how to operate all of them?
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Nope, not at all. But if you're sitting in your plane when they drive the 20,000 gallon tanker truck over that says JET-A on the side of it, you'd probably hop out and have a look at it before letting them fuel you, wouldn't you? Or if they drove an unmarked truck up? No difference... (Yes it'd be their fault for bringing the wrong truck, but you had ever opportunity to stop them.)

jesse said:
If your wife took the car to the shop to have them change the oil - and instead of putting in oil they put in water - would you hold your wife liable for that? Or would you be raising hell with the shop?
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Asked and answered. Same as the question about leaving your plane in the shop. If she took it and turned it over to them, and they screwed it up...no, of course not, their fault. But if she was standing in the bay while they pulled the garden hose out and started pouring water into the engine, I might question her why she didn't at least ASK them WTF they're doing.

And with that, I'm done arguing this point. I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind, and you're not going to change mine. I'm very sorry the OP is having to deal with this now, I thank him for posting about it; perhaps everyone can learn something from it. Or not. I'll still preflight my GPUs, whether I've seen them before or not, no hair off my back.
 
But it wouldn't be a garden hose, it would look just like they put oil in as the cart is the same, only the position of a switch (that the operator didn't even know about) marking the difference.
 
It takes less than 2 minutes to check the cart. How much time has he already spent on this problem because he didn't do so? How much more will he spend before it's over? Will he ever be sure what is burnt and what isn't? Would you rather spend two minutes checking the cart or a half-day scouring the belly with soda and water?

Is he a winner or a loser for assuming the guy knew what he was doing? As a pilot, you don't have to preflight anything if you decide you don't want to do it. Many pilots just get in and go. I frankly don't give a ratsass what you preflight, but my goal is to get where I want to go and I know that my odds are better if I watch them like a hawk. YMMV.

dell30rb said:
There are alot of different types of carts out there. Do I need to know how to operate all of them?
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wabower said:
It takes less than 2 minutes to check the cart. How much time has he already spent on this problem because he didn't do so? How much more will he spend before it's over? Will he ever be sure what is burnt and what isn't? Would you rather spend two minutes checking the cart or a half-day scouring the belly with soda and water?

Is he a winner or a loser for assuming the guy knew what he was doing? As a pilot, you don't have to preflight anything if you decide you don't want to do it. Many pilots just get in and go. I frankly don't give a ratsass what you preflight, but my goal is to get where I want to go and I know that my odds are better if I watch them like a hawk. YMMV.
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That's not the issue Wayne, who is going to pay is the issue.. should be the FBO.

The line boy's training and his actions are the direct responsibly of the FBO.
 
Sure it's an issue, Tom. These guys are abdicating their PIC responsibility based on "but the line guy is supposed to know" and talking tough about how they're going to hold somebody else responsible.

That philosophy is fraught with peril from a number of perspectives, starting with getting blood out of a turnip. How about compensation for loss of use? How about all the time and effort the owner will expend? So far, we've heard one side of the story. What will be introduced by the party when they tell the other side? I don't disagree that the service provider owes a certain level of care to the providee, but I'd much rather be in the position of avoiding the issue by paying attention to what they do.

Under the FAR's, who has has the ultimate responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of the airplane?

Tom-D said:
That's not the issue Wayne, who is going to pay is the issue.. should be the FBO.

The line boy's training and his actions are the direct responsibly of the FBO.
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It is the PIC responsbilty to make sure the airplane is airworthy before takeoff. It is the line guy's responsiblity to put 12 volts in where the pilot asked him twice to put 12 volts in... The FBO is 100% liable. To you guys who think the pilot is somehow negligant for not knowing the line guy's equipment... Try to convince a jury or in a small clams case a judge or majestrate of that.. Sue their pants off, they ****ed up.

<---<^>--->
 
Are you familiar with the the concept of cross examination during trials? Is your position that a competent attorney could not create substantial doubt in these circumstances? Or that the FBO and line guy couldn't present credible evidence that deflects blame to the pilot?

p1l0t said:
It is the PIC responsbilty to make sure the airplane is airworthy before takeoff. It is the line guy's responsiblity to put 12 volts in where the pilot asked him twice to put 12 volts in... The FBO is 100% liable. To you guys who think the pilot is somehow negligant for not knowing the line guy's equipment... Try to convince a jury or in a small clams case a judge or majestrate of that.. Sue their pants off, they ****ed up.

<---<^>--->
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wabower said:
Sure it's an issue, Tom. These guys are abdicating their PIC responsibility based on "but the line guy is supposed to know" and talking tough about how they're going to hold somebody else responsible.

That philosophy is fraught with peril from a number of perspectives, starting with getting blood out of a turnip. How about compensation for loss of use? How about all the time and effort the owner will expend? So far, we've heard one side of the story. What will be introduced by the party when they tell the other side? I don't disagree that the service provider owes a certain level of care to the providee, but I'd much rather be in the position of avoiding the issue by paying attention to what they do.

Under the FAR's, who has has the ultimate responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of the airplane?
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We all know it is easier to prevent than to cure, but once it has happened it's a matter of who pays.

If I were so stupid to use my 3000PSI N2 bottle to blow up your tire, who would yo expect to buy you a new tire?
 
wabower said:
Are you familiar with the the concept of cross examination during trials? Is your position that a competent attorney could not create substantial doubt in these circumstances? Or that the FBO and line guy couldn't present credible evidence that deflects blame to the pilot?
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I do not believe this would ever get to court, as soon as an implied warrantee was mentioned the FBO's insurance co. would be willing to settle.
 
wabower said:
As a pilot, you don't have to preflight anything if you decide you don't want to do it. Many pilots just get in and go. I frankly don't give a ratsass what you preflight, but my goal is to get where I want to go and I know that my odds are better if I watch them like a hawk. YMMV.
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Actually pilots are required to preflight. PIC is responsible for ensuring the aircraft is airworthy, and the POH details a preflight inspection that should be accomplished before flying the plane. If you miss something like a fuel cap and crash, you are responsible.

Teller and others: Definitely a good idea to check what you can check - this includes your GPU. I certainly understand the "does the truck say 100LL or jet-A" idea. I do think the FBO is responsible for the damage if he specifically asked for 12v.
 
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Totally different issue.

The other guy seems to be 100% sure the pilot will win, but easy for him to say because the cost of litigation isn't coming out of his pocket.

I'm not sure he would win, not sure the FBO has insurance, not sure the FBO's insurance company would settle, not sure the FBO isn't judgement-proof anyway, and not sure the aircraft owner would ever be able to collect even if he was awarded a judgement. If not, it wouldn't be the first time.

If I can avoid all of those what-if's and all of the other potential problems mentioned earlier by simply looking at the frigging cart for a couple of minutes, I'm going to do it.

Tom-D said:
I do not believe this would ever get to court, as soon as an implied warrantee was mentioned the FBO's insurance co. would be willing to settle.
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dell30rb said:
Actually pilots are required to preflight. PIC is responsible for ensuring the aircraft is airworthy, and the POH details a preflight inspection that should be accomplished before flying the plane. If you miss something like a fuel cap and crash, you are responsible.
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Why is airworthiness an issue? he did not fly the aircraft after the discrepancy was known.

they smelled smoke and bailed.. as they should.

or did I miss the part where they hand propped the aircraft and flew away?
 
Tom-D said:
Why is airworthiness an issue? he did not fly the aircraft after the discrepancy was known.
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I was writing in a response to wabower's post that pilots don't have to preflight if they decide they don't want to. Just pointing out that they are legally required to.

I agree with you in the OP's case... from an earlier post

Same goes for jumpstarting. You tell him you need a 12v jump on a piper and expect that they are going to operate their cart correctly. You still need to check the plane is running properly before you go fly it, but you don't have to baby sit the line guy.
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If your plane is tied down at said FBO, you probably have a tie-down agreement. Check and see if there's a disclaimer in there that protects the FBO.
I think a decent lawyer would give you a quick answer to who is responsible.
 
wabower said:
Totally different issue.

The other guy seems to be 100% sure the pilot will win, but easy for him to say because the cost of litigation isn't coming out of his pocket.

I'm not sure he would win, not sure the FBO has insurance, not sure the FBO's insurance company would settle, not sure the FBO isn't judgement-proof anyway, and not sure the aircraft owner would ever be able to collect even if he was awarded a judgement. If not, it wouldn't be the first time.

If I can avoid all of those what-if's and all of the other potential problems mentioned earlier by simply looking at the frigging cart for a couple of minutes, I'm going to do it.
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Do you require God to get your approval for the weather he's going to give you in the en-route phase too?

I get your point, it's a good practice to double-check the things you can, but that's not the same as saying you have a duty to do every task yourself or to microsupervise the (supposedly competent) people who are doing tasks you asked them to do.
 
TMetzinger said:
Do you require God to get your approval for the weather he's going to give you in the en-route phase too?

Is that the best you can do for a come-back? You might want to find a writer to help come up with better material ;)

I get your point, it's a good practice to double-check the things you can, but that's not the same as saying you have a duty to do every task yourself or to microsupervise the (supposedly competent) people who are doing tasks you asked them to do.
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You gotta be smarter than what you're working with. No matter what anybody thinks, it's a fact that line guys are the weak link in many ground accidents/incidents/claims. Once you accept that fact, you'll understand why it's important to watch them carefully. When you're away from your hangar, who else besides you and the line guys ever touch your airplane?

Line guys are supposed to be trained to safely move airplanes in and out of their hangars and parking places too. Wanna guess how many sheet metal damage issues and oversteer linkage claims on customer aircraft I've dealt with in the past twenty years?
 
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wabower said:
You gotta be smarter than what you're working with. No matter what you think, it's a fact that line guys are the weak link in many accidents. Once you accept that fact, you'll understand why it's important to watch them carefully. When you're away from your hangar, who else besides you ever touches your airplane?

Line guys are supposed to be trained to safely move airplanes in and out of their hangars and parking places too. Wanna guess how many sheet metal damage issues and oversteer linkage claims on customer aircraft I've dealt with in the past twenty years?
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So does that mean you don't let them move your airplane?
 
dell30rb said:
Actually pilots are required to preflight. PIC is responsible for ensuring the aircraft is airworthy, and the POH details a preflight inspection that should be accomplished before flying the plane. If you miss something like a fuel cap and crash, you are responsible.

.
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Clearly not true. There's a big difference between should and must.

If you're a regular at your airport, you know which pilots just climb in and go. None of them are in jail or subject to license suspension or revocation.

If you don't preflight and run off the taxiway, will the insurance company deny the claim because you didn't preflight or follow the manufacturer's checklist?
 
Just curious: Why do you want to spend time "accessing damage?" Isn't it apparent, already, what the damage is? Perhaps you're in the process of assessing the damages and where the responsibility lies.
 
wabower said:
Sure it's an issue, Tom. These guys are abdicating their PIC responsibility based on "but the line guy is supposed to know" and talking tough about how they're going to hold somebody else responsible.
Under the FAR's, who has has the ultimate responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of the airplane?
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Ok, sounds like the PIC did his job perfectly,

The plane failed his preflight and he didn't fly it. Let's not forget that this incident happened on the ground, with the airplane not in motion. What FARs are in effect there? You don't even need a PIC to compleate the jump start operation. I can sit at the controls of a twin, an airplane I cannot act as PIC of, and start the engines from external power.

The OP requested a service and in the performing of that service his property was damaged by the service provider.

Doesn't get any more clear cut than that.

Now I won't argue that a peak at the charger could have saved the hassle, but it doesn't absolve the FBO of any responcibility.
 
Nor have I suggested that the FBO was at fault, based on the pilot's account of the event. My point is that pilots must be proactive every time there's an opportunity to do so, and to assume the worst when the low-priced help is left on their own.

If the OP had it to do over, you think he would get out and check the cart settings, or sit on hisass in the cockpit waiting for the jump?

Skylane81E said:
Ok, sounds like the PIC did his job perfectly,

The plane failed his preflight and he didn't fly it. Let's not forget that this incident happened on the ground, with the airplane not in motion. What FARs are in effect there? You don't even need a PIC to compleate the jump start operation. I can sit at the controls of a twin, an airplane I cannot act as PIC of, and start the engines from external power.

The OP requested a service and in the performing of that service his property was damaged by the service provider.

Doesn't get any more clear cut than that.

Now I won't argue that a peak at the charger could have saved the hassle, but it doesn't absolve the FBO of any responcibility.
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To answer a few questions from random posts....

I started this thread in hopes to find ideas of potential damaged areas that I want to make sure are checked. It was mentioned a few times that actual damage is way too hard to assess so we all seemed to skip that topic. As an update, it seems that my systematic approach to keep only necessary power to switches on at time of start saved all of my electrical components. After the FBO who caused the damage looked and tested the plane, they said all was well. They will be cleaning and painting the battery box and skins that were affected. (I already cleaned once so a second time should be thorough enough). As for said battery, they are trying to get out of replacing the battery due to its age (2 years since manufactured). The manager says Monday he will make the decision if he will replace the battery. If he does not, then the insurance company will.


As for sitting on my ass waiting for power, I assure you that is not the case. The only reason I did not physically look at the cart is because I have been jumped by this cart before. While in hind site it would have been a better idea to look again, I watched the guys hook it up just as it had been hooked up before. I contemplated asking/telling them my voltage requirements but thought its always safer to double check, so i told them. That is when I clearly asked the lineman about the voltage from the cart. I know my plane as I have read the POH a few times......every page!! I clearly stated I needed 12 volts and he said OK!

After the episode, I heard a comment from the same lineman stating, "which one is positive, red or black?" as he asked his fellow co-worker. It was at that point I asked them to step away from the aircraft. ( this was after the original episode, when I was attempting to get the proper 12 volts to see what, if anything, was damaged)

After talking with the manager, the FBO has a strict policy that forbids lineman to jump 12 volt aircraft due to the set up they have. Obviously the lineman were breaking p&p.

I do see both parties points and think we are in agreement for the most part. We should be able to trust the employees at the FBO or mechanics at the shop to do their job correctly. When possible, we should look over shoulders and double check foreign equipment to help avoid situations like mine. As most state, it is not always possible.

Let's put it this way, for those of you who say its my fault for not checking the power cart as PIC, when your plane last came back for annual did you check that the flight control cables were greased? Did you pull the wheel pants off and dust covers to check that the wheel bearings were re packed? Did you pull the cowl off and check that all the safety wire that was replaced was don't properly or check that the oil filter was actually replaced or look up the AD's for your plane and cross check them?? Or did you trust your mechanic because to go over each and every line item is tedious and should not be necessary. Now let's say one of those items fail and ruins your aircraft, will you blame yourself for not simply pulling a dust cover off to check wheel bearings or hold the mechanic liable?
 
Are you equating the training, experience and expertise of licensed A&P mechanics with that of line service guys?

If someone came to you saying they had been forced to jump-start the same battery in the same airplane numerous times over the past few months, would that pattern of behavior raise any questions as to their maintenance practices regarding their airplane? Is that pattern consistent with other airplanes in the fleet?

Lessons a-plenty can be learned from this event. I'd be willing to bet that you learned a very important "what can possibly go wrong with this deal" lesson, and hope that others will learn from it as well.

Am I blaming you for the specific voltage setting problem? Not at all. The FBO's employee screwed up the procedure and the employer should be responsible for the damages. Am I trying to use your situation to caution others to become more proactive in any and all situations where someone else is laying hands on their aircraft, especially people whose training and experience are unknown? Absolutely.

I think there's an excellent chance that you could have avoided all this grief by looking at the cart settings and monitoring the hook-up, especially if they were using cart-to-battery leads rather than a terminal connector to the aircraft electrical system. If you wrote an "I learned about flying from that article" would you echo those sentiments as well?

I've been watching these screw-up scenarios unfold for more than 40 years of aircraft ownership. I've seen the damages caused by a Million Air line crew backing the tail of the same King Air 200 into the same hangar beam on three separate occasions. As the owner of an aviation consulting practice, I have been providing expert witness services in commercial litigation cases involving aviation for almost 20 years.

As a result, I've seen and/or been involved with a lot of these screw-ups as they have reached the ugly stage, and have learned that a pilot simply can't be too careful when other people of unknown capability are involved with his airplane. For those who would characterize that oversight as micromanagement, my response is that anything less is slovenly and lacking judgement, and they shouldn't be trusted to carry passengers.

I know that no amount of care can guarantee that something won't go wrong, and I accept those risks. I just don't want to be inconvenienced, injured (or worse) due to something that I could have prevented by all using the tools at my disposal, including eyeballs. YMMV.

jsadamson1 said:
To answer a few questions from random posts....

I started this thread in hopes to find ideas of potential damaged areas that I want to make sure are checked. It was mentioned a few times that actual damage is way too hard to assess so we all seemed to skip that topic. As an update, it seems that my systematic approach to keep only necessary power to switches on at time of start saved all of my electrical components. After the FBO who caused the damage looked and tested the plane, they said all was well. They will be cleaning and painting the battery box and skins that were affected. (I already cleaned once so a second time should be thorough enough). As for said battery, they are trying to get out of replacing the battery due to its age (2 years since manufactured). The manager says Monday he will make the decision if he will replace the battery. If he does not, then the insurance company will.


As for sitting on my ass waiting for power, I assure you that is not the case. The only reason I did not physically look at the cart is because I have been jumped by this cart before. While in hind site it would have been a better idea to look again, I watched the guys hook it up just as it had been hooked up before. I contemplated asking/telling them my voltage requirements but thought its always safer to double check, so i told them. That is when I clearly asked the lineman about the voltage from the cart. I know my plane as I have read the POH a few times......every page!! I clearly stated I needed 12 volts and he said OK!

After the episode, I heard a comment from the same lineman stating, "which one is positive, red or black?" as he asked his fellow co-worker. It was at that point I asked them to step away from the aircraft. ( this was after the original episode, when I was attempting to get the proper 12 volts to see what, if anything, was damaged)

After talking with the manager, the FBO has a strict policy that forbids lineman to jump 12 volt aircraft due to the set up they have. Obviously the lineman were breaking p&p.

I do see both parties points and think we are in agreement for the most part. We should be able to trust the employees at the FBO or mechanics at the shop to do their job correctly. When possible, we should look over shoulders and double check foreign equipment to help avoid situations like mine. As most state, it is not always possible.

Let's put it this way, for those of you who say its my fault for not checking the power cart as PIC, when your plane last came back for annual did you check that the flight control cables were greased? Did you pull the wheel pants off and dust covers to check that the wheel bearings were re packed? Did you pull the cowl off and check that all the safety wire that was replaced was don't properly or check that the oil filter was actually replaced or look up the AD's for your plane and cross check them?? Or did you trust your mechanic because to go over each and every line item is tedious and should not be necessary. Now let's say one of those items fail and ruins your aircraft, will you blame yourself for not simply pulling a dust cover off to check wheel bearings or hold the mechanic liable?
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Seems like the moral of the story is that people will screw up... If you let them.

The "system" will eventually get you your money back, usually. But it'll never give you your time back.

5 extra minutes checking that someone else isn't screwing up may save days of time later.
 
denverpilot said:
Seems like the moral of the story is that people will screw up... If you let them.

The "system" will eventually get you your money back, usually. But it'll never give you your time back.

5 extra minutes checking that someone else isn't screwing up may save days of time later.
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Agreed!
 
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