Need a plan for the Ruskies shooting down a civil aircraft

Of course, the US can hardly call out Russia for acting badly in the current situation given their behaviour in the Iran Air 655 incident...

(Spin Zone here we come)
 
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Katamarino said:
Of course, the US can hardly call out Russia for acting badly in the current situation given their behaviour in the Iran Air 655 incident...
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There are significant differences. Iran created a war zone by attacking U.S. ships in the Straits of Hormuz. Into this battle area Iran sent a civil airliner which was misidentified as threat.

Sending your own airliner into a war you started isn't same thing as shooting down a passing random airliner.
 
There are also significant parallels. Civil airliner, squawking properly, on a standard air traffic route with a flight plan.
 
Katamarino said:
There are also significant parallels. Civil airliner, squawking properly, on a standard air traffic route with a flight plan.
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I recalled and heard again yesterday that they were not squawking, but a quick glance at Wiki said they were.
 
Herr Rust says the Russkies can't find much less hit us little plane pilots:D Maybe they should just route all the airliner traffic directly over red square.
 
"We don't know yet who shot down this airplane, but it was Putin."
 
Great video. 7:00 in it gets real good! Reagan was the best at giving speeches..... and backing them up.


This is not the SZ yet. Keep the conversation civil and not political. It is a good speech in response to the Russians shooting down a number of civilian airliners including Korean Flight 007.

We are pilots in polite company. :D
 
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bullwinkle said:
"We don't know yet who shot down this airplane, but it was Putin."
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This has happened before. Some of the reasoning goes back a long ways. They were beat up pretty good in WWII. They created an air defense system that is run with little lee way. During the cold war if a plane strays into their area as in KLN 007 they had standing orders to shoot it down.

This wasn't the cold war. The separatists just got the weapons system this week and wanted to try it out. They had shot down a Ukrainian fights 2 days ago. This is looking like a tragic war time mistake. This is according to FOX.
 
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ClimbnSink said:
Herr Rust says the Russkies can't find much less hit us little plane pilots:D Maybe they should just route all the airliner traffic directly over red square.
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LOL, I walked out of the GUM store onto Red Square and the first thought that went through my mind was, "Hell, I could get the 310 in and out of here no worries.":rofl:

Gary Francis Powers has a few words I'm sure on the Russian's ability to take down an aircraft at high altitude. :idea: Maybe the airliners should go through there at 100' AGL.
 
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Henning said:
LOL, I walked out of the GUM store onto Red Square and the first thought that went through my mind was, "Hell, I could get the 310 in and out of here no worries.":rofl:

Gary Francis Powers has a few words I'm sure on the Russian's ability to take down an aircraft at high altitude. :idea: Maybe the airliners should go through there at 100' AGL.
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Mathias Rust landed a C172 there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust
 
Geico266 said:
Not even close. Try again.
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Sure, keep telling yourself that :rolleyes2:

Edit: On reflection, actually, maybe you're right. The latest incident seems to have been the work of poorly trained, undisciplined rebels while the other was carried out by supposedly highly trained professionals who should have known what they were doing. Neither is acceptable. So, significant differences, like you say.
 
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Katamarino said:
Edit: On reflection, actually, maybe you're right. The latest incident seems to have been the work of poorly trained, undisciplined rebels while the other was carried out by supposedly highly trained professionals who should have known what they were doing. Neither is acceptable. So, significant differences, like you say.
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Remember also the last time Ukrainians shot down a cruising airliner in 2001. They were supposedly highly trained professionals.

This was probably the same screw-up by the same people, only they have very convenient rebels to blame this time.
 
zaitcev said:
Remember also the last time Ukrainians shot down a cruising airliner in 2001. They were supposedly highly trained professionals.

This was probably the same screw-up by the same people, only they have very convenient rebels to blame this time.
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Unless the Ukrainian military believed that the rebels had aircraft of any sort worth shooting down, they would have no reason to be using anti-aircraft weapons on any aircraft. The rebels on the other hand ....
 
Jim Logajan said:
Unless the Ukrainian military believed that the rebels had aircraft of any sort worth shooting down, they would have no reason to be using anti-aircraft weapons on any aircraft. The rebels on the other hand ....
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There are two most likely possibilities here. One, the rebels did it accidentally or two, the Ukranians did it intentionally in an attempt to frame the rebels. I think the most likely scenario us a screwup by the rebels (which could actually put a damper on any plans Putin may have to expand his reclamation of Eastern Europe). But I don't know that we can totally rule out a Ukrainian frame job. Time will tell.
 
Fearless Tower said:
There are two most likely possibilities here. One, the rebels did it accidentally or two, the Ukranians did it intentionally in an attempt to frame the rebels. I think the most likely scenario us a screwup by the rebels (which could actually put a damper on any plans Putin may have to expand his reclamation of Eastern Europe). But I don't know that we can totally rule out a Ukrainian frame job. Time will tell.
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Through "national technical means" the US probably knows where the missile was launched from and the trajectory it took, to a high degree of accuracy. If it were deep inside rebel-controlled territory, there has to be some sort of reasonable story as to how the Ukranians got it there.

There's purported audio of discussions by rebel officers of the shoot-down. Certainly that could be forged, but if the US intelligence community has the interchange recorded and the sources geolocated, there would again need to be some sort of reasonable story as to how the voice mimics penetrated the rebel defenses and set up shop.

The only fly in the ointment is that the US will probably protect its capabilities and not publicly release detailed data. US leaders will know, but won't be willing to provide proof.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Stay out of commercial flights especially in the middle east, in eastern Europe and over Africa.
 
Putin, when confronted on the downing of MH17 stated "This is just another phony scandal cooked up by the Americans. The hard drives in the aircraft black box crashed and all the data for the last two hours was lost".

How could the world possibly refute that right?
 
Katamarino said:
Of course, the US can hardly call out Russia for acting badly in the current situation given their behaviour in the Iran Air 655 incident...
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And the US commander of the Vincennes continued to command and was even given a medal.

MH17 was indeed a crime of incredible proportions. The Iran Air shoot down was not much different, but somehow it wasn't called that.
 
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http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/asmt-07192014.html

United States Assessment of the Downing of Flight MH17 and its Aftermath

We assess that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine. We base this judgment on several factors.

Over the past month, we have detected an increasing amount of heavy weaponry to separatist fighters crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine. Last weekend, Russia sent a convoy of military equipment with up to 150 vehicles including tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and multiple rocket launchers to the separatist. We also have information indicating that Russia is providing training to separatist fighters at a facility in southwest Russia, and this effort included training on air defense systems.

Pro-Russian separatist fighters have demonstrated proficiency with surface-to-air missile systems and have downed more than a dozen aircraft over the past few months, including two large transport aircraft.

At the time that flight MH17 dropped out of contact, we detected a surface-to-air missile (SAM) launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine. We believe this missile was an SA-11.

Intercepts of separatist communications posted on YouTube by the Ukrainian government indicate the separatists were in possession of a SA-11 system as early as Monday July 14th. In the intercepts, the separatists made repeated references to having and repositioning Buk (SA-11) systems.

Social media postings on Thursday show an SA-11 system traveling through the separatist-controlled towns of Torez and Snizhne, near the crash site and assessed location of the SAM launch. From this location, the SA-11 has the range and altitude capability to have shot down flight MH17.

Ukraine also operates SA-11 systems, but we are confident no Ukrainian air defense systems were within range of the crash. Ukrainian forces have also not fired a single surface-to-air missile during the conflict, despite often complaining about violations of their airspace by Russian military aircraft.

Shortly after the crash, separatists – including the self-proclaimed “Defense Minister” of the Donetsk People’s Republic Igor Strelkov – claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane on social media.

In an intercepted conversation that has been widely posted on the internet, a known-separatist leader tells another person that a separatist faction downed the aircraft. After it became evident that the plane was a civilian airliner, separatists deleted social media posts boasting about shooting down a plane and possessing a Buk (SA-11) SAM system.

Audio data provided to the press by the Ukrainian security service was evaluated by Intelligence Community analysts who confirmed these were authentic conversations between known separatist leaders, based on comparing the Ukraine-released internet audio to recordings of known separatists.

Video posted on social media yesterday show an SA-11 on a transporter traveling through the Krasnodon are back to Russia. The video indicated the system was missing at least one missile, suggesting it had conducted a launch.

Events on the ground at the crash site clearly demonstrate that separatists are in full control of the area.
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Interesting that the embassy mostly cites social media and YouTube to support their claim. That comes off sounding weak, as if some teenager put their intelligence reports together.
 
Was there a Presidential address to the Nation after the US Navy shoot down of Iran Air 655?
 
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