Nearly Cutoff in the Pattern

[sbonek]

so there I was, on Downwind for Landing on Runway 25 at KMQJ while working on cleaning up my landings yesterday, when I hear a Hawker call out a 5 mile left base for 25. Ok, that's interesting, I thought. At that point I was ready to turn base, so I did and the Hawker noted he didn't see me. I had him in sight the whole time at my 3 o'clock and probably about 4 miles. I told him I had him in sight, and I proceeded to turn final.

At this point, I was focused on making sure I was lined up and ran through all my checks before landing, when I hear the Hawker call Final (still probably at least 3 miles behind me). I proceeded with my landing, and I think the aircraft behind me did as well, which forced the Hawker to circle and re-enter the pattern and land after the aircraft behind me.

I'm pretty sure I was in the right since I flew a standard pattern, and the Hawker was attempting to enter in a non-standard way, but wanted to see what everyone else thought. I was taxing back to 25 to do another trip around the pattern, when the Hawker did eventually turn final, he overshoot the runway, and then seemed to come in pretty high and hot, so I'm wondering if he was upset that we didn't just all get out of his way. I guess at least he didn't say "any traffic in the area, please advise"

I did get to claim another airport for the CONUS challenge (KHFY) and test out my new Bose headset, so all in all a pretty good day.

 

[Ghery]

I don't see where you did anything wrong. The Hawker was well out when you turned base and final, so no harm, no foul. Now, the guy behind you? Don't know enough to say. And, nothing necessarily wrong with the Hawker's entry to the pattern either. Base entries to the pattern are requested by the tower at OLM quite often.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

It doesn't sound to me like either of you did anything wrong. My only comment might be that had it been me, I might have offered to do a 360 for spacing and let the faster aircraft go. But there's no requirement that you do so.

 

[sbonek]

It doesn't sound to me like either of you did anything wrong. My only comment might be that had it been me, I might have offered to do a 360 for spacing and let the faster aircraft go. But there's no requirement that you do so.

I thought the same thing, but since he was so far out, I was confident I could get down in time and off the runway and there still would have been enough spacing between us that he still could have landed.

I considered the fact that his fuel burn is much more than mine and he potentially could have wasted a couple hundred $ in fuel... then I realized the cost of the flight most likely wasn't coming out of his pocket anyway...

 

[sbonek]

I don't see where you did anything wrong. The Hawker was well out when you turned base and final, so no harm, no foul. Now, the guy behind you? Don't know enough to say. And, nothing necessarily wrong with the Hawker's entry to the pattern either. Base entries to the pattern are requested by the tower at OLM quite often.

After I was off the runway and thought about the fact that the Hawker had to circle, the guy behind me probably did come closer to cutting off the Hawker. If I had been the person behind me, I probably would have offerred to do a 360 so the Hawker could go on his merry way.

Agreed on nothing really being technically wrong on his pattern entry, I was thinking AIM-wise, which really says entering on the 45 is the recommended way to enter the pattern.

 

[stingray]

After I was off the runway and thought about the fact that the Hawker had to circle, the guy behind me probably did come closer to cutting off the Hawker. If I had been the person behind me, I probably would have offerred to do a 360 so the Hawker could go on his merry way.

Agreed on nothing really being technically wrong on his pattern entry, I was thinking AIM-wise, which really says entering on the 45 is the recommended way to enter the pattern.

Was the person behind you a no radio? If he was not communicating then I would probably have informed the Hawker that there was someone behind you so that he knew. He would have had more options then.

Dan

 

[RotaryWingBob]

I thought the same thing, but since he was so far out, I was confident I could get down in time and off the runway and there still would have been enough spacing between us that he still could have landed.

I considered the fact that his fuel burn is much more than mine and he potentially could have wasted a couple hundred $ in fuel... then I realized the cost of the flight most likely wasn't coming out of his pocket anyway...

As I think about it, I actually would have extended my downwind, I think -- I've never been too crazy about faster aircraft coming up my tail (just a big chicken, I guess).

I get into a similar situation frequently -- if we fly a pattern at all (and all the FARs say is that we can't impede the flow of fixed wing traffic), we fly a 500 agl pattern making opposing traffic to the fixed wings. This sometimes means that I might be turning right base about the same time a fixed wing is turning left base for the same runway (although I would typically turn base a couple of hundred feet past the end of the runway). If the other guy sounds like he knows what he's doing, I'll tell him that I'll turn final short of the runway to land on a taxiway, ramp, grass, whatever, so that we effectively make parallel landings. If it's a student or someone who doesn't sound like they know what they're doing, then I'll extend my downwind or do a 360.

The speed thing is an issue here because while I might approach the pattern at 115-125 kt, I'll be down to 60 kt on base, and then progressively slowing down to 0 kt on my landing spot (which might be anywhere on the runway, including on the numbers). Come to think of it, coming to hover on the numbers with a Hawker on my tail wouldn't give the warm fuzzies

 

[gismo]

As I think about it, I actually would have extended my downwind, I think -- I've never been too crazy about faster aircraft coming up my tail (just a big chicken, I guess).

I get into a similar situation frequently -- if we fly a pattern at all (and all the FARs say is that we can't impede the flow of fixed wing traffic), we fly a 500 agl pattern making opposing traffic to the fixed wings. This sometimes means that I might be turning right base about the same time a fixed wing is turning left base for the same runway (although I would typically turn base a couple of hundred feet past the end of the runway). If the other guy sounds like he knows what he's doing, I'll tell him that I'll turn final short of the runway to land on a taxiway, ramp, grass, whatever, so that we effectively make parallel landings. If it's a student or someone who doesn't sound like they know what they're doing, then I'll extend my downwind or do a 360.

The speed thing is an issue here because while I might approach the pattern at 115-125 kt, I'll be down to 60 kt on base, and then progressively slowing down to 0 kt on my landing spot (which might be anywhere on the runway, including on the numbers). Come to think of it, coming to hover on the numbers with a Hawker on my tail wouldn't give the warm fuzzies

I'm with you Bob. First, making a 360 on downwind at an uncontrolled field is just plain a bad idea. There are too many potential conflicts with such a move and it's far simpler to simply extend your downwind if you want to come behind some other plane on the approach. As to whether or not this would have been a good idea in the OP's situation is hard to say, but if he got down and clear before the jet was on short final it sounds OK to me.

 

[ScottM]

I am thinking that when the Hawker heard there were others in the pattern it would have been in his best interests to fit into the traffic flow so as to not continue to have a conflict.

 

[sbonek]

Was the person behind you a no radio? If he was not communicating then I would probably have informed the Hawker that there was someone behind you so that he knew. He would have had more options then.

Dan

Nope, everybody was playing nice and using the radios. But the Hawker might not have been on the CTAF until he called his 5 mile base (I had been in the pattern for a good 15-20 minutes, and that was the first time I heard him), so he probably never heard me or the guy behind me until I called my Downind or Base and he might not have realized there was somebody behind me.

 

[sbonek]

I am thinking that when the Hawker heard there were others in the pattern it would have been in his best interests to fit into the traffic flow so as to not continue to have a conflict.

That was kinda my thought as well. In the past, I've heard other inbound aircraft announce a straight in to 25, or entering on base to 25, etc, and then when they here others are in the pattern, they re-announce that they will enter on the 45 or whatever.

 

[KennyFlys]

At KGVL, all the jet and heavier twin traffic plays pretty nice. The only problems I've seen are the smaller planes; some based there, some coming from elsewhere just for fuel. I've been cut off a few times while on downwind where one may enter on base or worse, someone will just show up and call short final when their still a ways out. I'll do a right 360 but they still aren't where they say they are so I'm looking for thin air.

I still won't forget the Sundowner who cut me off while I had an FAA examiner in the right seat. You never know when someone of significance might be writing down your number!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I am thinking that when the Hawker heard there were others in the pattern it would have been in his best interests to fit into the traffic flow so as to not continue to have a conflict.

I dunno. I don't think a Hawker really "fits in" too well with anything else. If he'll conflict with me (which I don't think was a factor in this case) I'll stay out of his way and let him get out of everyone else's.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

I dunno. I don't think a Hawker really "fits in" too well with anything else. If he'll conflict with me (which I don't think was a factor in this case) I'll stay out of his way and let him get out of everyone else's.

Yeah. I didn't say it real well, but I agree. What's legal isn't always smart

 

[ScottM]

I dunno. I don't think a Hawker really "fits in" too well with anything else. If he'll conflict with me (which I don't think was a factor in this case) I'll stay out of his way and let him get out of everyone else's.

The old airport I was based at had several jets. They would either make an approach and be straight in with plenty of announcements so we could all flow together. Or they would stay 500' higher than piston TPA, fly a regular pattern with an appropriate length downwind to mesh in.

 

[tonycondon]

I still won't forget the Sundowner who cut me off while I had an FAA examiner in the right seat. You never know when someone of significance might be writing down your number!

After he wrote down his number, then what would he do? I'm confused.

 

[Steve]

I had a similar situation recently. Only I was on left base, and an RJ was also on left base a mile off my right wingtip and the tower cleared me to land in front of the RJ. I offered a 360 to the left to let the RJ land ahead of me, tower concurred, only the RJ executed a go-around as he passed me after he entered final...causing further confusion and uncertainty. No metal was bent, though and both of us made it to the ramp unscathed eventually.

So it's not limited to Non-tower environments.

so there I was, on Downwind for Landing on Runway 25 at KMQJ while working on cleaning up my landings yesterday, when I hear a Hawker call out a 5 mile left base for 25...

 

[jesse]

I think most of the time people need to not take this **** so personal. Our radios aren't perfect. None of us can see every airplane. Sometimes I'll be flying and I'll hear some garbage on the radio. I don't know what that was and I really don't know if something else could have been said by someone else during that time period.

I've met a lot of pilots. I don't think I've ever met one that would intentionally cut someone off. Sure they might exist. But the numbers don't add up. Most of these "cut offs" are mistakes. Perhaps they did make a radio call and someone else transmitted at the same time. You do know they don't have to make them period.

If I see another airplane in the pattern that conflicts with me I'll make it work. I can slow way up and give them room. I don't care--I enjoy flying and don't get offended about it. Who cares. People make mistakes. I'm sure some guy somewhere thinks that I've cut them off. If I did it was a mistake. No reason to get upset about nothing.

 

[inav8r]

Seems like everytime I fly into MQJ I get into one of these situations. Hard to believe they don't have a tower down there at times. I usually try to be nice and usually wind up yielding to the other guy when I'm there.

 

[gprellwitz]

If I see another airplane in the pattern that conflicts with me I'll make it work. I can slow way up and give them room. I don't care--I enjoy flying and don't get offended about it. Who cares. People make mistakes. I'm sure some guy somewhere thinks that I've cut them off. If I did it was a mistake. No reason to get upset about nothing.

Well said! When driving, I've sometimes wished that there were a common gesture for "Oops, I'm sorry" just like there is for "You A-hole!"

 

[KennyFlys]

After he wrote down his number, then what would he do? I'm confused.

He's an examiner from the Atlanta FSDO. There are times they send out a friendly letter after making observations.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Well said! When driving, I've sometimes wished that there were a common gesture for "Oops, I'm sorry" just like there is for "You A-hole!"

Heh... Of course, the other guy usually pulls out the a-hole before you could whip out the sorry gesture anyway, at which point I generally cease being sorry.

 

[tonycondon]

He's an examiner from the Atlanta FSDO. There are times they send out a friendly letter after making observations.

that say what? "Thanks for flying and keeping me in a job"???

Yea he cut you off, so **** happens, no wrong was done, no reg busted.

 

[KennyFlys]

that say what? "Thanks for flying and keeping me in a job"???

Yea he cut you off, so **** happens, no wrong was done, no reg busted.

No wrong was done? Oh, that makes it "Okay." Geeze!

It all had to do with one thing... SAFETY!!!

There are times a letter will be sent stating an observation of actions by a specific airplane. Since they cannot verify who the pilot is, they would simply ask for recognition of proper procedures and vigilance in the pattern for other traffic.

Only a pure violation would generate more action.

 

[jesse]

that say what? "Thanks for flying and keeping me in a job"???

Yea he cut you off, so **** happens, no wrong was done, no reg busted.

Sounds like they need something to do. Maybe I should move down there....

 

[sbonek]

Seems like everytime I fly into MQJ I get into one of these situations. Hard to believe they don't have a tower down there at times. I usually try to be nice and usually wind up yielding to the other guy when I'm there.

It's only happened to me a couple times since I've been flying (about a year and half and 100 hours), this one I was little more prepared for than one of the previous times, which was on my solo. That time, I was turning base to final, when another guy who must have been behind me, also called turning to final, but I never saw him. I talked to my instructor after I was done and he said we had plenty of separation, but it was a little unnerving for me to be flying solo for the first time, and not able to spot another a/c in the pattern.

 

[Everskyward]

I think one of the harder things to do in a jet is to integrate yourself gracefully into an uncontrolled pattern full of slower airplanes, especially if some of them are no-radio or are choosing not to use it. If you enter downwind you are overtaking airplanes all the way around the pattern. If you enter on a base or do a straight-in you may be cutting someone off. I agree with Jesse in that I don't think pilots of either speed airplane intentionally try to cut other airplanes off. It's just that the speed difference between airplanes complicates things. Jets don't fly fast in the pattern because they are necessarily in a hurry or because they are worried about the cost of fuel. That's just the airspeed it takes to keep them up in the air safely as they get configured for landing.

For the OP, the Hawker was probably doing at least 120 on final, if not more, so they may have been overtaking you more quickly than you thought. I have many more times than once gone around for traffic at an uncontrolled airport, which isn't the best situation, but I understand and accept why it happens.

 

[sbonek]

I think one of the harder things to do in a jet is to integrate yourself gracefully into an uncontrolled pattern full of slower airplanes, especially if some of them are no-radio or are choosing not to use it. If you enter downwind you are overtaking airplanes all the way around the pattern. If you enter on a base or do a straight-in you may be cutting someone off. I agree with Jesse in that I don't think pilots of either speed airplane intentionally try to cut other airplanes off. It's just that the speed difference between airplanes complicates things. Jets don't fly fast in the pattern because they are necessarily in a hurry or because they are worried about the cost of fuel. That's just the airspeed it takes to keep them up in the air safely as they get configured for landing.

For the OP, the Hawker was probably doing at least 120 on final, if not more, so they may have been overtaking you more quickly than you thought. I have many more times than once gone around for traffic at an uncontrolled airport, which isn't the best situation, but I understand and accept why it happens.

All good points. And my original post wasn't to bash the Hawker driver, but to allow me some feedback on if I handled it ok, or not.

It sounds like the consensus is I should have extended my downwind, and I'm ok with that and will plan accordingly should it happen again.

4 miles separation when I'm on a relatively short final seemed like plenty of room, but if they are indeed doing 120 on final and I"m doing around 70, that would probably get eaten up pretty quickly. Not having even been in a Biz Jet, let alone fly one, I have no concept of what speed they are going. My guess is that the Hawker driver might have slowed up to allow me to continue since he didn't call out the 360 until the guy behind me turned base or final (I can't remember which), but I could be mistaken.

Thanks all for the feedback.

 

[cwyckham]

...That time, I was turning base to final, when another guy who must have been behind me, also called turning to final, but I never saw him. I talked to my instructor after I was done and he said we had plenty of separation, but it was a little unnerving for me to be flying solo for the first time, and not able to spot another a/c in the pattern.

That's the reason I really like the system of calling out:
"Ardmore traffic, FVR final 21 "Number 2" full stop"

That way number one knows that I see him and the aircraft behind me knows to look for two aircraft on final in case they're flying a closer base than me. I've been number 3 on final and heard somebody call number 5. It was a bit of a busy day. We were all doing touch and goes, though, and only one guy had to do a go-around.

It's pretty busy for a non-towered airport. It even has a parallel grass runway with simultaneous operations and the same pattern as the concrete runway so as you turn crosswind, you're turning accross traffic taking off from sealed runway. They're behind you so you can't see them well and they're climbing so they can't see you well. Nuts.

Chris

 

[RotaryWingBob]

It's pretty busy for a non-towered airport. It even has a parallel grass runway with simultaneous operations and the same pattern as the concrete runway so as you turn crosswind, you're turning accross traffic taking off from sealed runway. They're behind you so you can't see them well and they're climbing so they can't see you well. Nuts.

Chris

For some odd reason, your account triggered a memory from a few weeks ago. Our home airport is also a pretty busy non-towered field. We require our partner/pilots to get monthly recurrent training, so I was getting my monthly dose with out partner/CFII doing autorotations in the R22 (we use it for recurrency when we can for cost reasons). Now an R22 is pretty anemic, especially with roughly 380 pounds of meat on board and half tanks. I was in a hover midfield on the taxiway, and a 152 had just departed. There was another a/c which had just turned base, so I elected to depart parallel to the runway after the 152 passed me in order to sandwich myself in between.

I did a normal profile t/o which had me at 50 KIAS at 50' and then climb out at 60 kts. I then realized that if I stayed on upwind to where I would normally turn crosswind, I was going to run that 152 down. In an R22 pulling about 21" MP yet! With all that weight on board

The runway was left traffic for fixed wing so I turned right crosswind after using about 1500' of runway to avoid him. Which worked fine, of course, but if he had had a rearview mirror, he no doubt would have had a bit of a surprise seeing a scrawny little R22 closing up on him

 

[colomtnflyer]

Remember too, because of the speed differential, turbo props and jets often have a higher traffic pattern altitude designated than piston traffic. And at the speeds they are set up for, they will also be using a much wider pattern as well!

So don't necessarily expect to see them in the places where you would normally find your most common traffic, instead, look outwards an additional 1-2 miles and up another 500 ft.

 

[jesse]

but if he had had a rearview mirror, he no doubt would have had a bit of a surprise seeing a scrawny little R22 closing up on him

If he was in a 152 he most likely did have a rear view mirror installed from the factory. Although some people pulled them out and stuck something else in that spot. Every 150/152 I've been in has had a rear view mirror.

 

[poadeleted20]

At the end of the day, it's all about courtesy, common sense, and consideration. Zuerst denken, dann fliegen.

 

[colomtnflyer]

Cap'n Ron- Ja, genau!

 

[Dwight B. Van Zanen]

After I was off the runway and thought about the fact that the Hawker had to circle, the guy behind me probably did come closer to cutting off the Hawker. If I had been the person behind me, I probably would have offerred to do a 360 so the Hawker could go on his merry way.

Agreed on nothing really being technically wrong on his pattern entry, I was thinking AIM-wise, which really says entering on the 45 is the recommended way to enter the pattern.

I think the only thing in the FAR/AIM that applies is that the aircraft at a lower altitude on approach has the right-of-way, except that no one is supposed to use that rule to cut off someone else. Does not sound like either you or the guy behind you did that. I assume the Hawker that far out was higher, and should have adjusted his approach to the traffic in the pattern. They can slow-fly too, just not as slow as a piston aircraft. The go-around and coming in hot and high makes me think this may have been someone in training?

I recall once in training on a solo turning final for a full stop after a guy who had been doing touch and go's in a slower plane (can't recall what) so I was not concerned about him much. This time he made a full stop, and then took a lot of time getting off the runway. "Good time to practice the go-around" was what I was thinking. No need to get upset about it. Though it would have helped if he had announced his intentions or I had asked instead of assumed. You never know the experience level of the person in the other plane.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think the only thing in the FAR/AIM that applies is that the aircraft at a lower altitude on approach has the right-of-way

*final* approach.

The go-around and coming in hot and high makes me think this may have been someone in training?

I doubt there's a whole lot of Hawker training that actually happens in airplanes. I bet a week at FlightSafety or Simcom is cheaper than a single flight in the airplane!

 

[sbonek]

I think the only thing in the FAR/AIM that applies is that the aircraft at a lower altitude on approach has the right-of-way, except that no one is supposed to use that rule to cut off someone else. Does not sound like either you or the guy behind you did that. I assume the Hawker that far out was higher, and should have adjusted his approach to the traffic in the pattern. They can slow-fly too, just not as slow as a piston aircraft. The go-around and coming in hot and high makes me think this may have been someone in training?

..snip..

4-3-3. Traffic Patterns in the AIM is what I was thinking of, it has a diagram of now to enter and exit the traffic pattern. The only entry is shows is basically entering on the 45. So it doesn't explicity say you should only ever enter a pattern this way, but it's the only way shown, so I guess that means it's preferred.

However as others have said, it would be kinda hard for a Hawker to not overtake a pattern full of single-engine piston a/c, so the fact that he was entering on base wasn't necessarily to try and cut me off, so I get that and it does make sense.

 

[Dwight B. Van Zanen]

Kent: The #1 turned final before the Hawker. Not clear about #2. At some point they go from sim to flying in aircraft, right? Everyone has a first flight in type at some point. It seemed from the comment that the landing was a little off, like someone in training. Someone experienced should not have been thrown off by the need to go-around, right?

Steve: I was just looking for something that could possibly be an FAA write-up. Pattern entry would not do it since a base entry is allowed. Had the Hawker hit, or had a near miss with, the #2 plane; who would get the suspension (assuming they both survive?). If the #2 turned final after the Hawker turned, seems like that would be a case of cutting in line - especially since #2 seems to have cut in with something less then 2 miles between. If the Hawker and #2 turned about the same time, then #2 was at the lower altitude and the Hawker should have adjusted to the aircraft ahead. But that does not address the basic issue of who could or should have avoided the development of this problem.

I have made a few non-standard turns to final, but not with other traffic in the pattern. Non-standard is usually traffic permitting or some kind of emergency, and in this case traffic was in the pattern and on the radio (#1 knew the Hawker did not have him in sight, so they were talking). Everyone has a duty to avoid other aircraft. Dropping into a pattern in a fast plane without regard to the other traffic is not a good idea, and turning final in front of a bigger faster plane is not a good idea either. In fact, I don't turn base from downwind with anyone on final until they are past me on final. I think they would both get some shared responsibility in case of an incident or accident.

Perhaps a better way to address this is, what would you have done in the pilot seat of each plane? I think #1 was perfectly justified in landing ahead of the Hawker. Turned final before the Hawker with enough room. Sounds like the base entry by the Hawker was announced about the time #1 turned base. If the Hawker heard #2 on downwind or announce a turn to base, knowing #1 was also ahead of him on base, I don't think he should have started a base entry to the pattern. If he heard #1 turn base and did not know about #2, he was fine doing a base entry knowing he was enough behind to be OK. If he heard #2 turn base after he had announced his base entry, they both ought to have worked things out on the radio. The pilot of the #2 is the one I really wonder about. Hearing the #1 and the Hawker on base, what was he doing making a base turn until they were both past him? And hearing both #1 and the Hawker turn final, what was he doing making a turn to final between them?

If you saw this happening and you were #2, if you heard this while on downwind you just make a long downwind leg. If you figure it out after you turn base you have few good options. With a tight pattern you can't really do 360's on the short base leg waiting for the Hawker to pass. Best option I see is to extend the base and exit the pattern, but you still have to cross in front of the Hawker. At least you are not turning into his path at 80Kts or less. You can cross and be clear in a few seconds rather than a few minute, and you can see if you can cross safely out your right window.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Kent: The #1 turned final before the Hawker. Not clear about #2. At some point they go from sim to flying in aircraft, right? Everyone has a first flight in type at some point.

I dunno about the Hawker drivers, but I wouldn't doubt that their first time in type (airplane, not sim) is with paying pax. Mari or Brent could probably provide a better answer. To me, even if it is their first time, if they've got paying pax aboard I wouldn't exactly call it a "training flight."

It seemed from the comment that the landing was a little off, like someone in training. Someone experienced should not have been thrown off by the need to go-around, right?

You'd think, but ATP's with 5 digits in their logs crash all the time. Nobody is immune from having a bad day. I can see that if the boss was in back pressuring them to get him there quick and they had to go around because of an inconsiderate bugsmasher that they might not have their mind completely on their approach and landing.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have made a few non-standard turns to final, but not with other traffic in the pattern. Non-standard is usually traffic permitting or some kind of emergency,

I should point out that the FAA and NTSB have made their position on this very clear in past enforcement actions. Regardless of whether or not there is other traffic in the pattern, turns in the pattern at nontowered airports other than in the published direction (i.e., only left unless otherwise stated, and only right if so stated) are illegal, and can cost you time on the ground. The only time you can bypass this is on a straight-in approach, and "any turn into a straight-in approach must be made sufficiently far from the runway that it does not interfere with the normal traffic pattern." Based on the discussion in those cases, "sufficiently far from the runway " is a minimum of two miles out, and I'd say three to be safe.

For the legal details on turning the wrong way, see Administrator v. Boardman and Administrator v. Dibble (5 NTSB 352 (1985) - not on the internet but quoted in Boardman).