NDBs?

[somorris]

We have an ADF in our airplane that I listen to AM radio on. When it quits, we will probably put in a 430 if we can afford it. I did enjoy the NDB approaches for the challenge, but I think most of them around here are already gone.

 

[SCCutler]

One of the NDB approaches I have on occasion flown in practice is this one, the NDB Rwy 19 at Alpine. As my Pilot Mentor tells me, you are most likely to need an instrument approach at E38 when the wind is from the north, and you are relying solely upon time for your missed approach point - and those hills to the south loom large in your mind.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1111/06295N19.PDF

 

[WileyP]

Discussions on the usefulness (and usability) of NDBs have been going on for decades, probably since the first VOR was powered up. When I got my instrument rating we simply took the adf receiver out of the airplane so I wouldn't have to use it on the check flight. (At that time, you only had to do those approaches the airplane was equipped for!)

Thirty years ago, my students would often ask why they had to learn NDB navigation and approaches, when about the only ones they would experience in their training were LOMs. In answering their query, I would open a supossedly random low altitude enroute chart to a supposedly random page and have them count the VORs. There were 22. Then They would count the NDBs (not including locator marker beacons). There were 44 of them. Since each of the NDBs served at least one small airport, if you could fly an ADF, you had at least three times the number of airports into which you could shoot an approach.

Personally, though, I love 'em for the good radio...especially at night. Used to be able to receive KOMA in Oklahoma City from just about anywhere in the US, and they played oldies!

 

[GCA319]

I never learned NDB approaches. There isn't one within 100 NM of my home airport. It's kind of fun to hone into AM radio stations and stuff, but there is something I don't like about relying on a quivering needle to get me where I need to go when I can use something much more accurate such as VOR, GPS, or my eyes to get me where I need to go.

 

[Ddayle]

VFR pilot, I use the AM radio, but know how to use the ADF for navigation. The Club Plane all have nice Garmin 's one 250 the rest 430's. I can get moving map & use the GS & track features, but I really navigate by VOR or just pilotage. The way I learned from my dad in the sixties flying on family vacations. Dave

 

[poadeleted20]

(At that time, you only had to do those approaches the airplane was equipped for!)

That hasn't changed. The only caveat is that you have to be able to do one precision and two nonprecision approaches, although the two nonprecision can be a VOR and a LOC, so as long as you have one VOR/LOC with GS, that's enough. In addition, if there's an approach GPS in the plane, you must do one GPS approach.

 

[Rex Kramer]

Great for learning orientation.

There's probably no better instrument in the airplane that teaches a pilot how to figure out where they are than the NDB. If one can master the NDB, everything else is a cakewalk.

That being said, they are a great learning tool, but their usefulness for day to day operations is fading fast. Simply better tools for the job out there now.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I've known folks to placard a perfectly working ADF "INOP" before a test.

Cough, cough....

 

[denverpilot]

I never learned NDB approaches. There isn't one within 100 NM of my home airport. It's kind of fun to hone into AM radio stations and stuff, but there is something I don't like about relying on a quivering needle to get me where I need to go when I can use something much more accurate such as VOR, GPS, or my eyes to get me where I need to go.

If yours is quivering it either needs maintenance, or you're inside a thunderstorm. Either way you should get something fixed.

NDBs are so bloody easy. They point at the darn station.

Point. Right. At. It.

If you can hold a heading worth a darn you can figure out wind effect and correct for it so you're tracking not homing.

It doesn't get any simpler than that.

I hear they're kinda reassuring over the North Atlantic, too. Probably never get the opportunity to find out, though.

Sigh. I'm gonna miss 'em...

 

[Ted]

I hear they're kinda reassuring over the North Atlantic, too. Probably never get the opportunity to find out, though.

Actually, they'll probably be around for the North Atlantic and Europe for a while yet. Plus they're nice for developing nations since they're cheap to build (assuming that they don't just go with GPS).

I find them to be assuring in northern Quebec, too. Anything that confirms I'm heading the right direction when I'm a couple hundred miles from nobody is nice.

 

[shenanigans]

I've known folks to placard a perfectly working ADF "INOP" before a test.

I know one person who did this on a rental plane but forgot to take the INOP sticker off afterwards. It's now been "INOP" for a year or two, but except for the sticker blocking part of the gauge, it works perfectly.

I believe the examiner is supposed to confirm that items labeled INOP have an appropriate entry in the maintance logs. The examiner i used for my IR didn't bother to check.

 

[RotorAndWing]

The examiner i used for my IR didn't bother to check.

I always check

 

[shenanigans]

So if I showed up with a plane that had an INOP sticker on the ADF, what would you be looking for?
From the reg below, it seems like I can just slap an INOP tag on it and "deactivate" it by turning it off. That doesn't require maintenance and thus no record is required, right?

91.213(d) says:

(d) Except for operations conducted in accordance with paragraph (a) or (c) of this section, a person may takeoff an aircraft in operations conducted under this part with inoperative instruments and equipment without an approved Minimum Equipment List provided--

. . .

(3) The inoperative instruments and equipment are--
(i) Removed from the aircraft, the cockpit control placarded, and the maintenance recorded in accordance with Sec. 43.9 of this chapter; or
(ii) Deactivated and placarded "Inoperative." If deactivation of the inoperative instrument or equipment involves maintenance, it must be accomplished and recorded in accordance with part 43 of this chapter; and
(4) A determination is made by a pilot, who is certificated and appropriately rated under part 61 of this chapter, or by a person, who is certificated and appropriately rated to perform maintenance on the aircraft, that the inoperative instrument or equipment does not constitute a hazard to the aircraft. An aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment as provided in paragraph (d) of this section is considered to be in a properly altered condition acceptable to the Administrator.

 

[denverpilot]

Don't miss that "deactivated" part. If you slap a sticker on it and it still powers up, you're running a significant risk of a bust for whoever made the logbook entry. Most mechanics won't do it.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

So if I showed up with a plane that had an INOP sticker on the ADF, what would you be looking for?
From the reg below, it seems like I can just slap an INOP tag on it and "deactivate" it by turning it off. That doesn't require maintenance and thus no record is required, right?

91.213(d) says:

Firstly, I don't believe turning it off satisfies the requirement to deactivate the equipment. You would need to pull and collar the circuit breaker or somehow disconnect power from the unit.

Secondly, a maintenance record entry would be required per 14 CFR 43.9.

(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs ( b ) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

 

[shenanigans]

Firstly, I don't believe turning it off satisfies the requirement to deactivate the equipment. You would need to pull and collar the circuit breaker or somehow disconnect power from the unit.

Well, yeah if you have to go messing around with the wiring, then i'm sure that requires an entry, but the reg I quoted implies that it's possible to deactivate something in a way that doesn't require "maintenance" - and thus no log entry.

It seems like turning it off and maybe pulling the the circuit breaker would deactivate it. I couldn't find anything to suggest that would or wouldn't be acceptable. If that isn't ok, I'm wondering what would be an example of deactivating something in a way that doesn't require "maintenance".

 

[denverpilot]

Well, yeah if you have to go messing around with the wiring, then i'm sure that requires an entry, but the reg I quoted implies that it's possible to deactivate something in a way that doesn't require "maintenance" - and thus no log entry.

It seems like turning it off and maybe pulling the the circuit breaker would deactivate it. I couldn't find anything to suggest that would or wouldn't be acceptable. If that isn't ok, I'm wondering what would be an example of deactivating something in a way that doesn't require "maintenance".

In our bird with recessed breakers, there was no way. You wanted the ADF "in-op", you'd be paying someone to remove power from the bus bar and making the appropriate log entry. (I hate recessed breakers by the way... no good way to pull them. They're still the "certified" way to do things in our bird, though... can replace them only through a Field Approval. "Safety last!" That's what us Certificated guys get. GRIN!)

I've seen the local FSDO approve using "colored collars" around the newer pullable-style breakers, that won't allow the breaker to be pushed back in and energized without cutting the collar off. Works for the folks that have them... but I'd bet a cranky/suspicious DE would just ask why the radio wasn't pulled for MX if it's "IN-OP" for purposes of repairing it, or pulled completely if it's "IN-OP" for a failure with no plans to repair or replace it...

 

[GCA319]

If yours is quivering it either needs maintenance, or you're inside a thunderstorm. Either way you should get something fixed.

NDBs are so bloody easy. They point at the darn station.

Point. Right. At. It.

If you can hold a heading worth a darn you can figure out wind effect and correct for it so you're tracking not homing.

It doesn't get any simpler than that.

I hear they're kinda reassuring over the North Atlantic, too. Probably never get the opportunity to find out, though.

Sigh. I'm gonna miss 'em...

It's a rental planes ADF...My VFR only 150 does not have one. The ADF is the least complex nav instrument available, but I don't find it anywhere near as useful as VOR or GPS nav.

 

[BellyUpFish]

In our bird with recessed breakers, there was no way. You wanted the ADF "in-op", you'd be paying someone to remove power from the bus bar and making the appropriate log entry. (I hate recessed breakers by the way... no good way to pull them. They're still the "certified" way to do things in our bird, though... can replace them only through a Field Approval. "Safety last!" That's what us Certificated guys get. GRIN!)

Recessed breakers are one of the things I'm changing out when the new panel goes in...