NDB Approach

Cpt_Kirk

Cpt_Kirk

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I flew one in real life. I flew it extremely well given the current weather status in the Southeast.

Now, I can check that box. As well a carburetor ice in the climb out after the approach. IMC. Light turbulence.

Why do people despise them? I've never met another human being who liked the approach.

Oh, and I did it all in a /A. No GPS. Old farts need not apply.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I flew one in real life. I flew it extremely well given the current weather status in the Southeast.

Now, I can check that box. As well a carburetor ice in the climb out after the approach. IMC. Light turbulence.

Why do people despise them? I've never met another human being who liked the approach.

Oh, and I did it all in a /A. No GPS. Old farts need not apply.
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You've met one now, I don't "despise" them. Once you learn basic ADF navigation NDB approaches are easy and just as accurate as VOR approaches.
 
GPS, VOR/DME, 2 VORS: will tell you exactly where you are; ADF/NDB only gives you a bearing, I removed it, only ever did an approach on a simulator.
 
Did a couple before I got the new avionics. Found them to be frustrating. Liked the old add music though.
 
RNAV is old world. GPS is here. Too bad its not twenty years from now when all the VORs are gone.
 
I've flown a few in my plane for practice, pretty easy, but also makes me appreciate the situational awareness available in some other types of approaches.
 
Challenged said:
I've flown a few in my plane for practice, pretty easy, but also makes me appreciate the situational awareness available in some other types of approaches.
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You're right and I agree. Not knowing when I was going to cross the NDB was definitely interesting.
 
When I first went to Alaska there were still several operating. Even some colored airways. I got pretty good at navigating the airways and the approaches. Then GPS overlay approaches started coming out. Then all I would use the ADF for was to listen to music. Some really old, somber Russian classical music when they would turn on the NDB in Provideniya.
 
Zeldman said:
When I first went to Alaska there were still several operating. Even some colored airways. I got pretty good at navigating the airways and the approaches. Then GPS overlay approaches started coming out. Then all I would use the ADF for was to listen to music. Some really old, somber Russian classical music when they would turn on the NDB in Provideniya.
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GPS ruins it's all. I've never used one to listen to the radio, as others have said you can.

The only time I've listened to the radio in an airplane was when it had an AM/FM Tape player in the plane. I really liked that. It should be standard equipment.
 
Dislike (not "despise" tho)

No DME/distance data, ever from an NDB

the signal is subject to interference and other problems

can be more challenging to stay on course if windy versus other navaids

must listen to ident during entire approach to verify it does not drop off the air
 
I kind of liked the NDB approaches, though there aren't many left around here. Very simple equipment with not a lot to go wrong. No database subscriptions or updates to buy. And, I do occasionally listen to AM radio on ours.
 
Evolution of the NDB approach:

1) Young pilot getting his Instrument rating doesn't like the ADF or NDB approach, because "it's too hard". After he gets his rating vows never to use ADF or NDB's again.

2) Young pilot now gets his CFII. Since he loathes ADF and NDB he preaches to his students "NDB and ADF's are bad! Don't use them!" and doesn't teach them to his students.

3) Students get on internet forums, read all about the horror stories of NDB and ADF from students and CFI in #2.

4) New instrument trainees disable or remove ADF's from their airplanes since it must be true the ADF/NDB's are so difficult and besides, one day they will all be diasabled anyway.
 
I like NDB approaches and have flown them a number of times. They are a lot more fun than RNAV.
 
They are not that tuff to shoot raw data.

That said, they are not as accurate as a VOR, LOC, GPS. Real world I shoot them (and most everythig outside of an ILS) with WAAS GPS overlay, with the raw data on another nav head just to be legal.

Fact is NDB just doesn't get me down low enough, and with LPV approaches popping up all over, well yeah, guess its cool to listen to AM or be able to fly to a AM radio tower for whatever reason but that's about it.
 
The mental effort of an NDB approach is pleasant. I don't get the hostility. Fun.
 
flying an NDB approach amounts to 1) having a general idea where you are, and 2) being able to hold a heading. Anyone who says "its too hard" is really saying they can't do either of those things.
 
GPS is wonderful and I love it
But before GPS there was NDB for small airports (and large) that could not afford an ILS.
Flying an NDB approach in a crosswind requires situational awareness (just like finding Carnegie Hall - practice)
Today's pilots, like Thursday's Child, have far to go to actually master their craft (shrug)
It is all moot anyway. More and more NDB transmitters are being shut down by the FAA to save money. The one at my home airport that had been there for four generations is recently gone, replaced with a sterile GPS RNAV approach.

My GPS is precise but it is not a companion in finding home as the NDB was. We would come across Lake Erie from the Cleveland side on those icy, winter nights, me blowing on my fingers to thaw them out because the wimpy heater could not keep up with a zero night. The clouds wrapping us would gradually go from pitch black over the lake to glowing as we approached Detroit with 4.8 million people far below us and every one of them had a light on. Once we saw the glow we switched our attention from the VOR aiming us away from Windsor to the ADF receiver. Flip the switch on and crank the dial to 385 kc and gently rock it back and forth. It is eighty five miles through the dark freezing night to the little transmitter shack on the field, and with the cabin so cold tonight the receiver circuits won't be right on the mark. The speaker on the cabin roof is rattling with static, then there it is, morse code. We have good propagation tonight and the signal is steady. The friendly tone of the morse code struggling to be heard over the roar of the engine made the cabin feel warmer than it was. Flip the switch to ADF and the dead needle currently pointing off somewhere towards NYC twitches, then lazily begins to swing South. We stare hard at it. It twitches again, kind of vibrates for a half second then smartly walks around the compass rose and resolutely points to home, steady as a rock on this frozen night. In the summer time the lightning strikes all aver the country are yanking at it, causing the needle to twitch and flutter and even rotate off 80 or 90 degrees for a few seconds. But tonight it is the rock of Gibraltar, our bird dog pointing the way home.
"Hey Frank, any coffee left. Pour me a cup will ya I'm a little dry." and I tap away on the yoke with one finger in time with the beat of the morse code calling us home to warm beds and warm wives.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
You've met one now, I don't "despise" them. Once you learn basic ADF navigation NDB approaches are easy and just as accurate as VOR approaches.
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The primary obstacle protection area has to be significantly larger for an NDB approach because it is not as accurate as a VOR approach. The MDA and visibility are often much higher as a result.

I used to enjoy doing NDB approaches, primarily for the challenge and was quite good at it. But I moved on 14 years ago when I first added a GNS430. The GNS430 was my second GPS after the KLN90B that I installed 4 years earlier.
 
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Cpt_Kirk said:
I flew one in real life. I flew it extremely well given the current weather status in the Southeast.

Now, I can check that box. As well a carburetor ice in the climb out after the approach. IMC. Light turbulence.

Why do people despise them? I've never met another human being who liked the approach.

Oh, and I did it all in a /A. No GPS. Old farts need not apply.
Click to expand...

I never understood the fuss about NDB approaches either outside of the minimums are kinda high. That said having vertical guidance on approach is kinda nice.
 
teejayevans said:
GPS, VOR/DME, 2 VORS: will tell you exactly where you are; ADF/NDB only gives you a bearing, I removed it, only ever did an approach on a simulator.
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ADF and a VOR give you an exact position as will 2 ADFs, although there will be a greater margin of error in interpolation.

It's really not so much about the position that has advanced, but rather how we process and use that position data that has made mad advances over the last 20 years. In reality, you could run an SVT EFIS unit off VOR data processed by something similar to a KNS-80 box, heck, you would think Garmin would add that capability to their boxes, back up VOR-RNAV capabilities.
 
Dr. O said:
GPS is wonderful and I love it
But before GPS there was NDB for small airports (and large) that could not afford an ILS.
Flying an NDB approach in a crosswind requires situational awareness (just like finding Carnegie Hall - practice)
Today's pilots, like Thursday's Child, have far to go to actually master their craft (shrug)
It is all moot anyway. More and more NDB transmitters are being shut down by the FAA to save money. The one at my home airport that had been there for four generations is recently gone, replaced with a sterile GPS RNAV approach.

My GPS is precise but it is not a companion in finding home as the NDB was. We would come across Lake Erie from the Cleveland side on those icy, winter nights, me blowing on my fingers to thaw them out because the wimpy heater could not keep up with a zero night. The clouds wrapping us would gradually go from pitch black over the lake to glowing as we approached Detroit with 4.8 million people far below us and every one of them had a light on. Once we saw the glow we switched our attention from the VOR aiming us away from Windsor to the ADF receiver. Flip the switch on and crank the dial to 385 kc and gently rock it back and forth. It is eighty five miles through the dark freezing night to the little transmitter shack on the field, and with the cabin so cold tonight the receiver circuits won't be right on the mark. The speaker on the cabin roof is rattling with static, then there it is, morse code. We have good propagation tonight and the signal is steady. The friendly tone of the morse code struggling to be heard over the roar of the engine made the cabin feel warmer than it was. Flip the switch to ADF and the dead needle currently pointing off somewhere towards NYC twitches, then lazily begins to swing South. We stare hard at it. It twitches again, kind of vibrates for a half second then smartly walks around the compass rose and resolutely points to home, steady as a rock on this frozen night. In the summer time the lightning strikes all aver the country are yanking at it, causing the needle to twitch and flutter and even rotate off 80 or 90 degrees for a few seconds. But tonight it is the rock of Gibraltar, our bird dog pointing the way home.
"Hey Frank, any coffee left. Pour me a cup will ya I'm a little dry." and I tap away on the yoke with one finger in time with the beat of the morse code calling us home to warm beds and warm wives.
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I enjoyed that story.

jordane93 said:
I've never flown one and was not trained or tested on it
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I flew three approaches in my IR training. All of it in a sim. I had flown a bunch of them in a sim at home but never in real life. So, I took the opportunity to do it yesterday while picking up some actual.

Sure, they're ancient, not as accurate, and won't get you down as low but, being able maintain aircraft control and fly a perfect approach was something I was proud of. Heading control is extremely important and taught me to keep my scan up more than I would before.

GPS is great, don't get me wrong, but it makes it too easy sometimes.
 
James331 said:
They are not that tuff to shoot raw data.

That said, they are not as accurate as a VOR, LOC, GPS. Real world I shoot them (and most everythig outside of an ILS) with WAAS GPS overlay, with the raw data on another nav head just to be legal.

Fact is NDB just doesn't get me down low enough, and with LPV approaches popping up all over, well yeah, guess its cool to listen to AM or be able to fly to a AM radio tower for whatever reason but that's about it.
Click to expand...

There was a NDB approach in Galveston, Tx. The full approach was all over water. It would take you down to 200 AGL. Scary at night over water in a single engine with the fog rolling through.

Yes, GPS has taken all the fun out of finding the runway, thank goodness...
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
The only time I've listened to the radio in an airplane was when it had an AM/FM Tape player in the plane. I really liked that. It should be standard equipment.
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My pilots and med crews want me to put satellite radio in the planes. I tell them I will pay for the radios if they pay for the installation. No takers yet. :dunno::lol:
 
Zeldman said:
My pilots and med crews want me to put satellite radio in the planes. I tell them I will pay for the radios if they pay for the installation. No takers yet. :dunno::lol:
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Hah. I can imagine.
 
Henning said:
ADF and a VOR give you an exact position as will 2 ADFs, although there will be a greater margin of error in interpolation.
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Almost every IFR capable plane I've seen has 2 VORs, I've yet to see a plane with 2 ADFs. Yes, I know I can use one, but that requires too much work and takes away my attention from flying the plane.
 
teejayevans said:
Almost every IFR capable plane I've seen has 2 VORs, I've yet to see a plane with 2 ADFs. Yes, I know I can use one, but that requires too much work and takes away my attention from flying the plane.
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it wasn't that long ago dual adf's were common. When I learned to fly IFR all our planes had dual ADF's because we flew a lot of NBD defined airways. Piece of cake, just lock the needles together.
 
teejayevans said:
Almost every IFR capable plane I've seen has 2 VORs, I've yet to see a plane with 2 ADFs. Yes, I know I can use one, but that requires too much work and takes away my attention from flying the plane.
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When I started flying, seeing 2 ADFs was not uncommon.
 
teejayevans said:
Almost every IFR capable plane I've seen has 2 VORs, I've yet to see a plane with 2 ADFs. Yes, I know I can use one, but that requires too much work and takes away my attention from flying the plane.
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The 727's I flew had 2 ADF's installed. We flew NDB airways often and of course used them for SA during approaches.
 
Our 67' KA 65-A90 had dual ADF, Dual RMI, and any other radio that might be in an airliner. Complete with the big remote boxes and racks. Each airplane was different and had at least 5 ways of illuminating the panel. The Wilcox Transponder box had to weigh 25 pounds, and there were two of them.

And, you haven't lived until you hear a RCA AVQ-75 drum DME whiz back and forth like a casino slot machine.
 
JHW said:
flying an NDB approach amounts to 1) having a general idea where you are, and 2) being able to hold a heading. Anyone who says "its too hard" is really saying they can't do either of those things.
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I think that's true, regarding 2) ... people who are sloppy at holding headings will find ADF navigation confusing and frustrating.
 
JHW said:
flying an NDB approach amounts to 1) having a general idea where you are, and 2) being able to hold a heading. Anyone who says "its too hard" is really saying they can't do either of those things.
Click to expand...
I don't think they're "hard" but with an off field beacon the accuracy depends on the accuracy of your heading indicator even if your ADF is perfect (most aren't). And getting an accurate compass reading to set into the DG in moderate turbulence is pretty much impossible IME.

That said, an RMI coupled to a slaved HSI or DG makes NDB tracking dirt simple although there's still enough error to require looking over a rather large field of view for the target runway if the beacon is not on the field.
 
To me, the hardest part of flying an NDB approach is finding a plane with an ADF still in it!

Even the C-140 that still has the 1940's era AI doesn't have an ADF installed.
 
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