NBDs going away

Removing NDBs a good thing ?

  • Yes, the sooner the better !

    Votes: 5 13.9%

  • Yes, but only if they are truly low usage.

    Votes: 21 58.3%

  • No, are you kidding, I love my ADF.

    Votes: 10 27.8%
  • Total voters
    36
  • Poll closed .
I've only been flyng for 2.5 years so I never really used them. I think the money spent on maintenance could be better spent elseware. I've always had an IFR GPS and 2 VOR's. GPS is the future, so as pilots we should embrace the technology and advance it. I have never had a RAIM failure when enroute or shooting an approach.
Paul
 
What I like about GPS approaches is the precision in lateral deviation. The other non-precision approaches the lateral deviation is a function of how far away from the navaid that you are using.

The TAA structure simplifies things for ATC and the Pilot. When in the clag, I like simple.
 
I enjoy ADF's and find them very usefull for situational awareness. The approaches can be difficult to understand at first, but they are really simple if a little thought process is applied. Given the current state of GPS's and ILS's I think the days of the NDB approachs are numbered and eventually I will remove the ADF from my plane (when it doesn't work anymore probably), but the NDB approach will always be remembered by me as a neat way to fly an approach.

Mark
 
OTOH, if there is an NDB approach at a major airport that has ILS + VOR + GPS approaches, the NDB approach can go away as far as I'm concerned. It costs the FAA money to maintain the approach (flight check, etc.), and the approaches are never used. Why maintain an NDB approach into SAT or ORD if it's never going to be used?
 
wsuffa said:
OTOH, if there is an NDB approach at a major airport that has ILS + VOR + GPS approaches, the NDB approach can go away as far as I'm concerned. It costs the FAA money to maintain the approach (flight check, etc.), and the approaches are never used. Why maintain an NDB approach into SAT or ORD if it's never going to be used?
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True. The only exception is if the NDB is used as part of the ILS or LOC approach in which case unless everyone has a GPS that will be hard to eliminate.

Mark
 
I am a fairly newly minted IA pilot, and have flown planes with IFR GPS and dual nav-coms. I am not a personal fan of NDB approaches, and will not really miss them myself. I do occasionally shoot one in practice, as it is good to keep the skills up.

However, when I think about some friend's planes and other aircraft at S37, not that many have IFR GPS yet. For those folks, the NDB is still a pretty valuable tool. Until the GPS becomes standard equipment (which is happening pretty fast I admit), I hate to see too many of these NDB approaches go away.

Jim G
 
Mark S said:
True. The only exception is if the NDB is used as part of the ILS or LOC approach in which case unless everyone has a GPS that will be hard to eliminate.

Mark
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Mark, in those cases the NDB APPROACH can still go away. Not the NDB itself. Each approach has to be flight checked separately. There will still be cost savings. There are a lot of cases where the LOM is used for the published NDB approach, yet no one ever is assigned the NDB APPROACH.

At SAT, there is an NDB 12R that uses the LOM for ILS 12R (ALAMO). I see no reason to keep the NDB 12R approach. Since you must have a VOR receiver to fly this approach (for the missed), and there exists a VOR approach, GPS approaches, and 2 other ILS systems at the airport, there really is no reason to continue to have the NDB APPROACH. Yes, the NDB itself has to stay as long as it's part of the ILS, but some time and money can still be saved by eliminating the NDB 12R approach.

The FAA is moving to eliminate NDB/LOM as part of the ILS in some cases. For example, look at the NDB-3 at SAT. BLUIE is colocated with the OM, it used to be the LOM on the ILS-3. Since it is no longer part of the ILS approach, I'd say both the NDB and the NDB-3 APPROACH can go away.
 
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To me the NDB was the most fun part of my instrument training, but I can understand why it's falling into disuse with tools like GPS available. It was more of a challenge and I had to think more about the airplane's position and how the wind was affecting the course. Personally, while I won't go to the expense of having one put in, I wish our 150 had an ADF, especially since our airport has an NDB.

John
PP-ASMEL-ASES-IA
KPCM
 
Mark S said:
True. The only exception is if the NDB is used as part of the ILS or LOC approach in which case unless everyone has a GPS that will be hard to eliminate.

Mark
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Usually the NDB is at the outer marker, so marker beacon will do the same job.

On a side note....

I use the NDBs all the time for situational awareness....Like....
Today I shot the VOR 33 into CWF.... I had the Outer Marker NDB for ILS runway 15 tuned in.... Follow the arrow & you will find the airport :)

Eamon :dance:
 
Len Lanetti said:
Mark,

Is there still an airway defined by an NDB in use toward Manteo?

Len
Click to expand...

Yes.

That would be G13. G13 uses HI and also beacons MQI and OUC. There is a dogleg at intersection ZOLMN (which is defined as a bearing off of MQI and also a bearing off of HI). HI, incidentially, is listed as a marine beacon, so decommissioning that would require extra work (IIRC, ADFs are long gone as mandatory equipment on large seagoing vessels).

Beacon HI also serves as the terminal point for Victor Airway V56.

THere are not enough VORs on the Outer Banks to define a route with them. If the FAA were to put up a replacement route out there, it would probably be one of the new "Q" routes.
 
BTW, the only other domestic-only route I'm aware of that is based on an NDB is route B9 that runs from an intersection in Florida down to the beacon at Marathon. There are several in the Carribbean.
 
I wanted to become a real live IFR pilot 30 years ago and still haven't taken the training. ADF I understand...I'm still trying to figure out those GPS thingies. I better get with it or I'm going to be like granny learning to drive the Space Shuttle! Seriously, with GPS, NDB's sure don't seem to have the value for dollars spent.
 
lsimonds said:
Seriously, with GPS, NDB's sure don't seem to have the value for dollars spent.
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If you are in an airplane that has no GPS, those NDBs might be worth more to you at that moment. I have never been a huge fan of NDBs. I always thought it was cool to triangulate your position with VORs. But from time to time when flying the GPSless planes I did tune in the NDBs along my route just to cross check my position and orientation on the sectional.
 
I got my instrument rating a couple years ago without every touching, seeing, discussing, or flying an NDB approach... I honestly don't know anything about them, and the FAA could care less if I do. I got my instrument rating in my Bonanza, which has no ADF, but has a certified GPS.

So.. I guess I could say I wont miss them!

I should point out that I do fly NDB approaches IF they are in the GPS database, but then I use a totally different proceedure to fly that approach with the GPS.
 
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Of course you mean you fly NDB overlay procedures that are titled with NDB *and* GPS (RNAV). One cannot fly NDB only approaches without ADF.
 
Yes, that is correct. If it is in the GPS database, it's an overlay approach, if it's not, I can't fly it.
 
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