NavCom Options - Where to read-up?

455 Bravo Uniform

455 Bravo Uniform

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455 Bravo Uniform
Where do I start researching? Is there a matrix somewhere that compares options? Website?

I tried Garmin's site on my phone...maybe I need to try a desktop...

Is Garmin the main player?
 
Are you trying to compare the prices or features ? What exactly you are trying to read up ? Please specify. Try Aircraft spruce. They will have prices and some brief descriptions of different radios.
 
Choices limited. Assuming you are talking new:

Garmin GNC 255

Bendix-King KX165

TKM

After that, you have units with Comm or Nav, but not both, or units with Nav, Com and GPS
 
I should have said NavComGPS.

Just trying to learn what is out there. I am starting from zero. I have no idea what the model numbers mean and what features there are. Mainly when looking at airplanes for sale or possibilities for upgrades.

Will give Aircraft Spruce a try.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Is Garmin the main player?
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Yes. In terms of NavComGPS units Garmin is the 800 pound gorilla and the GNS430 is the GA standard workhorse.

Lots of other options out there, but in terms of a NavCom units for /G flying the 430 is what a lot of others are measured off of and they are the most commonplace in the market, although now discontinued.

You need an actual magenta line to be a recognized member of the "Children of the Magenta Line" club
 
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If you're buying new, it's easy.

Garmin: GTN650 and GTN750 (larger screen).
Avidyne: IFD440 and IFD540 (larger screen).
BendixKing: KSN770.

All modern, all reviewed well.
 
More important, what's your budget?
 
murphey said:
More important, what's your budget?
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Good question! Answer: I have no idea, cuz I don't know what features and capability differences there are between models yet (that's what ultimately determines budget for me...if it's "worth it" to me, I'll pay it). I'm trying to become an intelligent consumer and starting totally from page 1.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Good question! Answer: I have no idea, cuz I don't know what features and capability differences there are between models yet (that's what ultimately determines budget for me...if it's "worth it" to me, I'll pay it). I'm trying to become an intelligent consumer and starting totally from page 1.
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#1 - are you only VFR, light IFR or serious IFR?
#2 - what type of airplane?
 
VFR for now; likely never hard IFR if/when I get my instrument rating.

182s are my interest at the moment. 200-600 nm trips are the goal. I'm a paper chart and Foreflight pilot at the moment, no panel GPS experience whatsoever.
 
Unless you plan on hard IFR, stick to ForeFlight....much more capability than a Garmin box and it is constantly evolving.

That being said, for a /G don't blow your money on a used 430W-- a GTN650 is the same size and only 2K more


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Tampico Trauma said:
Unless you plan on hard IFR, stick to ForeFlight....much more capability than a Garmin box and it is constantly evolving.

That being said, for a /G don't blow your money on a used 430W-- a GTN650 is the same size and only 2K more


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Some of us really don't care for the 650 touchscreen interface. The screen is too small for what it's called to do. The 750 is better, but it's a lot larger.

For IFR functionality, the 430W is nearly identical, with one major exception -- airways. But it has real buttons that you can actually push in turbulence.

I've never cared for Garmin's strategy of putting everything in one box. One bad fuse can make for a real bad IFR day. I kinda like the GPS and ILS to be separate.
 
I agree with you on all three fronts... just from an economic perspective, my Avionics guy has a valid point... a 430 is 20 year old technology they will quit supporting sooner rather than later.

I also saw a ton of 430/530's "out for service" over the course of my recent purchase saga....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I Don't care for the 430's button-ology. The user interface is horrible. Haven't used the 650, though. As for having the GPS and the ILS in the same box, I would want a second nav/com radio so that I have some redundancy.
 
If you're shopping for new avionics, the absolute best thing you can do is get yourself to Oshkosh or Sun n' Fun and see all of the current-production boxes in person, with a rep standing there to show you the ropes. I think you'll find that, as others have noted, Garmin is the primary player in the field right now. Avidyne is a distant second and King/Honeywell is kind of a joke these days (in GA GPS, at least).
 
You need to bite the bullet and call one of the big name shops and just talk to one of their reps. They know what's going to work best with your aircraft in terms of installation costs and adding additional antennas etc.

You can look all day online and decide on something only to find it's going to be outrageously expensive to install.
 
I think I read that @455 Bravo Uniform wants to know while he's comparing ads for a future airplane purchase. Not for a new or used replacement in a plane he already owns.

So, OP, when I was in your shoes I googled the models I didn't recognize and after a few hours of surfing Airplane Porn sites like Trade-a-Plane, Controller.com, Barnstormers (crap website, good planes) I got used to passing on stuff I thought I didn't want.

Apparently I like old stuff. 2 club planes with 430s and 1 experimental with 430W. Haven't gotten lost yet.
 
PPC1052 said:
I Don't care for the 430's button-ology. The user interface is horrible. Haven't used the 650, though. As for having the GPS and the ILS in the same box, I would want a second nav/com radio so that I have some redundancy.
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650 buttonology is very similar to 430. So is G1000 (with a bunch of additional stuff on top).

If you want an intro to their touchscreen menus, a 650 is a lot like Garmin Pilot. Can't imagine why....

A second nav/comm is great, but if it doesn't have a GS receiver, it's less capable.
 
Go to a large dealers web site like Sarasota avionics,most of the answers to your questions can be found there.
 
SCCutler said:
If you're buying new, it's easy.

Garmin: GTN650 and GTN750 (larger screen).
Avidyne: IFD440 and IFD540 (larger screen).
BendixKing: KSN770.

All modern, all reviewed well.
Click to expand...

Why would you buy new??

Besides the 430/530 are much more proven, seem to not have some of the failures the GTNs do, work better in chop, cost less and shoot all the exact same approaches.

Aside from having new for the sake of having new, GTNs don't make much sense to me.


Even if you're VFR, unless you are going to do it budget and get a old TKM or a old King, I'd toss a 430 in, having a /G plane is a good thing.
 
James331 said:
Why would you buy new??

Besides the 430/530 are much more proven, seem to not have some of the failures the GTNs do, work better in chop, cost less and shoot all the exact same approaches.

Aside from having new for the sake of having new, GTNs don't make much sense to me.


Even if you're VFR, unless you are going to do it budget and get a old TKM or a old King, I'd toss a 430 in, having a /G plane is a good thing.
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Given the high resale values, the delta between the installed cost of a used 430W vs a new GTN650 is only a couple thousand dollars. And that 430W has no warranty, and a $1000 flat rate repair cost. Doesn't take much to go wrong in the first 2 years to close the cost gap (the GTN has a 2 year warranty). On top of that, the GTN650 is more than 15 years newer than the 430. While I imagine Garmin will continue support for the 430 for awhile, 430 support will end long before GTN650 support will. To me, those benefits would be worth the relatively small price difference (in aviation dollars).

If you're looking to put in a used GPS, unless you just steal a 430W from someone, the most economical options are going to be a 400W (can be had for well under $5k) or an older non-WAAS unit.
 
Except the 430/530s arnt exactly having the failure rates near that of the new boxes, and newer isn't always better, especially in turbulence or for eyes out the window muscle memory use...plus 2k isn't exactly chump change.

2k more or less gets me a Garmin G5

Over 500 gal of 100LL

BAS harnesses with the fancy rotary buckle

New leather upholstery

Etc

All of which is a lot cooler and a lot more useful than having a "touchscreen" 430.

But to each their own
 
Most of the used /G planes will likely have a Garmin, if the owners have upgraded, or perhaps a King if not. As others have said, the Garmin 430W (be sure it has the "W") is the standard bearer. Things are changing pretty fast, though. For IFR work, it would be worthwhile if you are buying an airplane to get one with an IFR WAAS GPS unit already installed. Be careful with the older King units as the displays for some are no longer being made and if you lose some digits it could be a real pain. Also, keep in mind that to keep a panel mount GPS database up to date, a subscription would be needed at a cost of (I think) about $500 a year.
 
Yes, look at the Avionic websites. They are educational. Also can order their catalogs, or at least you used to be able to do that.
 
James331 said:
Except the 430/530s arnt exactly having the failure rates near that of the new boxes, and newer isn't always better, especially in turbulence or for eyes out the window muscle memory use...plus 2k isn't exactly chump change.

2k more or less gets me a Garmin G5

Over 500 gal of 100LL

BAS harnesses with the fancy rotary buckle

New leather upholstery

Etc

All of which is a lot cooler and a lot more useful than having a "touchscreen" 430.

But to each their own
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong, I probably prefer the 430W over the GTN650 (like you, I don't love the touchscreen), but I'd personally have a hard time buying a 15 year old used unit over a brand new one just to save ~$2k. While $2k is real money, in the grand scheme of airplanes and avionics of that caliber, it's pretty small dollars. And if ANYTHING goes wrong with that used 430W in the first two years, you just lost at least 1/2 of your savings.
 
I'm also not a big fan of touch screens in the panel. If the OP find a plane with a functioning 430 or 530 installed it has value. I suspect most used ones today are being bought as slide in replacements for failed units - less costly than the Avidyne alternative.
 
I've got 140hrs behind my GTN650 and the whole it sucks in turbulence is a bunch hooey IMO. I've not found the touch screen to be an issue. If it were me I'd go with s GTN over a GNS for lifecycle suppprt as has already been noted.
 
Art VanDelay said:
You need to bite the bullet and call one of the big name shops and just talk to one of their reps. They know what's going to work best with your aircraft in terms of installation costs and adding additional antennas etc.

You can look all day online and decide on something only to find it's going to be outrageously expensive to install.
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I will add that I have a couple of quotes from a few reputable avionics shops in my area from around 5 or 6 years ago for a Garmin 650, new indicators (x2), a second Garmin nav/com, new Garmin transponder, new wiring, harnesses as required and antennas, installed, all for around $30,000 (U.S.) installed in a 1976 177B. I'm still /U today.
 
MAKG1 said:
A second nav/comm is great, but if it doesn't have a GS receiver, it's less capable.
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That's a good point. I never considered the possibility of buying a second nav/com without GS receiver. I would definitely want it to have a GS receiver and an indicator with GS needle.
 
SCCutler said:
If you're buying new, it's easy.

Garmin: GTN650 and GTN750 (larger screen).
Avidyne: IFD440 and IFD540 (larger screen).
BendixKing: KSN770.

All modern, all reviewed well.
Click to expand...

Has there been any talk of Bendix doing a smaller version of the 770? Hoping to pull the trigger this year, and it's a real toss up between the 440 and 650. Would love to review another option.
 
To the OP...since this is a research mission for looking at new planes and where to start...here is what I would do:

Finding a plane with a 430 or better already installed is gonna be WAY cheaper than installing one yourself. 50% savings is the consensus of the unit already being installed. Most would consider a Garmin GNS430 as a minimum starting point for a fully capable /G IFR plane...and they are the most common.

That does not mean you can not upgrade a plane if you find the perfect one without a good NavComGPS unit, it will just cost a bit more. I would contact an avionics shop and get a best guesstimate for full installation of a new Garmin GTN650 and/or the Avidyne IFD440. That way you will be armed with the numbers when comparing planes with and without /G capabilities. Most would agree that it does not make sense to install a discontinued used unit in a new install unless you really need to do it on the cheap. ADS-B capabilities and upgradability also need to be taken into consideration.

From there you can decide if you wanna go bigger or not, but sounds like you are just trying to figure out what is what in the panels you are seeing
 
BGF_Yankee said:
Has there been any talk of Bendix doing a smaller version of the 770? Hoping to pull the trigger this year, and it's a real toss up between the 440 and 650. Would love to review another option.
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Have you seen a 770 in person or actually played with one? I toyed with one at Oshkosh, IMHO it's a POS. Way, way behind Garmin and Avidyne. There's a reason you don't hear much about them, nobody is buying them.
 
bradg33 said:
Have you seen a 770 in person or actually played with one? I toyed with one at Oshkosh, IMHO it's a POS. Way, way behind Garmin and Avidyne. There's a reason you don't hear much about them, nobody is buying them.
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No, no I had not. This is why I was asking. Good information to have and hear! I've at least played with the 650/750 and 440/540. Because I'm a Garmin'ized pilot, the 650 was much easier for me to transition into. I do okay with the 440, but it took me a little longer to figure a couple of things out.
 
PPC1052 said:
I will add that I have a couple of quotes from a few reputable avionics shops in my area from around 5 or 6 years ago for a Garmin 650, new indicators (x2), a second Garmin nav/com, new Garmin transponder, new wiring, harnesses as required and antennas, installed, all for around $30,000 (U.S.) installed in a 1976 177B. I'm still /U today.
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Whooo ! Numbers like that make me love experimentals more and more '
 
Art VanDelay said:
Whooo ! Numbers like that make me love experimentals more and more '
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Other than access to EFIS systems, you still have to have a "certified" IFR GPS in the airplane if you want to file /g and use GPS approaches. Which means you're still buying a GTN650, etc. And there aren't too many "experimental" transponders or Nav/Coms; most of the experimental guys are using standard avionics from suppliers like Garmin, King, etc. The only real "advantage" in experimental avionics comes in autopilots, EFIS and engine monitoring.
 
PPC1052 said:
Yeah, that's why I was disappointed that the Part 23 re-write left out the part that allowed using non-certified avionics in legacy aircraft.
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Wouldn't have made it difference in this case since we're talking navigators and not something like an EFIS. In any event in the E-AB world you can save on installation costs which can be considerable.
 
tsts4 said:
In any event in the E-AB world you can save on installation costs which can be considerable.
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Assuming you have the skills and tools to do all of the wiring. It's not "hard," but it's not exactly like putting together a plug-and-play computer.
 
bradg33 said:
Assuming you have the skills and tools to do all of the wiring. It's not "hard," but it's not exactly like putting together a plug-and-play computer.
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If you are building you probably have the skills and tools. I built my entire panel-- it ain't rocket science either. The skills are easy to learn.
 
tsts4 said:
If you are building you probably have the skills and tools. I built my entire panel-- it ain't rocket science either. The skills are easy to learn.
Click to expand...

Agreed, it's certainly less relevant to builders. But those who think that the key to freedom is buying an already-built experimental may find that much of the savings comes in doing your own install, which may be outside their skill set (or time availability).
 
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