NATO TFR AKA The Death Penalty

Stupidity. The fact they go to lengths like that mean the terrorists are winning - we are sufficiently scared. Or atleast the politicians are.
 
Be careful in Chicago for NATO summit

Chicago Sun-Times, Federal Aviation Administration, Flight Advisory, NATO Summit, No-Fly Zone, Shoot-To-Kill Order, Susanna Song
CHICAGO (CBS) — A new report reveals plans to keep residents and dignitaries safe during the NATO Summit include a no-fly zone, with a shoot-to-kill mandate for those who break the ban.

As CBS 2’s Susanna Song reports, the government is warning small plane pilots that if they enter the no-fly zone during the summit, they may be shot down.
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Guess we'll need to install threat identifying radar next. :(

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/05...ed-by-shoot-to-kill-order-during-nato-summit/
 
Re: Be careful in Chicago for NATO summit

bartmc said:
No need for the radar, don't you know, we're all an eminent threat. If not, why would we even have TFRs?
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My guess is that the purpose of a TFR is to provide a warning area around high value targets. By excluding normal traffic security organizations can identify potential threats earlier than if they were mixed in with normal traffic volumes. You should recognize that security organizations have a job to do. In that job paranoia is a prerequisite. You can surely accept the fact that there are organizations in the world who mean us harm. I am not saying every manifestation of our security efforts are sensible, but an explosives laden small plane crashed into a motorcade or a specific portion of a building could be an effective weapon. That is the reality of our world today.
 
Re: Be careful in Chicago for NATO summit

Threefingeredjack said:
I am not saying every manifestation of our security efforts are sensible, but an explosives laden small plane crashed into a motorcade or a specific portion of a building could be an effective weapon. That is the reality of our world today.
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How is a TFR going to stop that? How about a car or truck full of explosives that crashes into a motorcade? The few hundred pound payload of your average light plane pales in comparison.
 
Re: Be careful in Chicago for NATO summit

Anthony said:
How is a TFR going to stop that? How about a car or truck full of explosives that crashes into a motorcade? The few hundred pound payload of your average light plane pales in comparison.
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Why don't we just slide this into the Spin Zone so we can actually discuss the lunacy of this policy?
 
Re: Be careful in Chicago for NATO summit

Anthony said:
How is a TFR going to stop that? How about a car or truck full of explosives that crashes into a motorcade? The few hundred pound payload of your average light plane pales in comparison.
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Yes that is a viable threat that is undoubtedly planned for. Apparently you have little experience with explosives. "A few hundred" pounds of high explosives (RDX-3, C-4 ), will level a medium sized building, and would certainly destroy a meeting room or vehicle.
 
I like the list of 'Not Authorized Operations'. Number 14 is 'Model Rocketry'.

I know when I go shoot off rockets with my boys I always check NOTAMS...doesn't everybody?
 
I agree that a GA plane packed with explosives is a potential threat, but when the government manpads an old lady in her cub, the terrorists really have won.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Speaking from experience in these types of operations, yes they will if required.
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I'd be very interested to know what constitutes "required", or is that top sekkrit. So there's a very real chance that if I go be-bopping across the country and miss a TFR in my preflight I'll be shot down. Are they going to use tanks to blow up cars that turn the wrong way down a one way street? Even if the streets only one way a couple of days a year?

The TFR makes no sense anyway, why should I assume that "required" means "reasonable" when the entire thing is "unreasonable"
 
Re: Be careful in Chicago for NATO summit

Threefingeredjack said:
Yes that is a viable threat that is undoubtedly planned for. Apparently you have little experience with explosives. "A few hundred" pounds of high explosives (RDX-3, C-4 ), will level a medium sized building, and would certainly destroy a meeting room or vehicle.
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I think you missed my point, and I will ask my question again. How will a TFR stop an airplane?

I know what explosives can do, but again, you miss my point. While a few hundred pounds can do severe damage a few thousand pounds in a truck can do much more. I know there are plans to deter a motor vehicle, but I don't see the government saying they will "shoot down" cars and trucks near the summit.
 
Re: Be careful in Chicago for NATO summit

Anthony said:
I think you missed my point, and I will ask my question again. How will a TFR stop an airplane?

I know what explosives can do, but again, you miss my point. While a few hundred pounds can do severe damage a few thousand pounds in a truck can do much more. I know there are plans to deter a motor vehicle, but I don't see the government saying they will "shoot down" cars and trucks near the summit.
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A TFR will not stop an airplane. As I mentioned earlier a TFR is a zone of airspace used to separate potential threats from normal traffic. An aircraft entering a TFR will be identified, intercepted, evaluated, and destroyed if required.
 
Captain said:
I know when I go shoot off rockets with my boys I always check NOTAMS...doesn't everybody?
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About as often as I check notams for flying paper airplanes.

Does estes rockets now come with instructions on how to contact FSS and read notams before flying them? The instructions use to be; here are the pieces, glue them together, paint, stickers, pack parachute, shove engine up the butt, don't aim at face or people or things you don't want scratched, shoot, run after rocket, repeat until out of engines or tired. Flyable model airplanes had less instructions.
 
Re: Be careful in Chicago for NATO summit

Threefingeredjack said:
You should recognize that security organizations have a job to do.
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They sure put a lot of time and effort into painting bullseye's on things they don't want blown up.
If you don't want the meeting members shot at or blown up, don't tell the public where it's going to be happening.
Just saying...
 
Re: Be careful in Chicago for NATO summit

Threefingeredjack said:
A TFR will not stop an airplane. As I mentioned earlier a TFR is a zone of airspace used to separate potential threats from normal traffic. An aircraft entering a TFR will be identified, intercepted, evaluated, and destroyed if required.
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I really doubt that will happen in the time it takes some aircraft to close that distance. I do realize that is the intent and protocol, however, I do not believe it is practical nor effective. It only will stop those individuals that abide by the law. Last time I checked terrorists and criminals don't do that.

If the security apparatus really wanted to be effective they'd shut down a LARGE portion of the city from traffic in which the summit was occuring, but of course that won't happen as it would be too much of a hassle. It easier to put "pretend" measures in place so that security staff and politicians can feel like they are doing soemthing.
 
The AMA (national model airplane organization, membership mandatory at most fields because they provide insurance cheap) sends NOTAM TFR emails to members near impacted areas. I can assure you when there is VIP activity model airplane fields 20+ miles away sit empty (of sub-10 lbs line of site models). No outer ring exceptions.
 
Re: Be careful in Chicago for NATO summit

Threefingeredjack said:
A TFR will not stop an airplane. As I mentioned earlier a TFR is a zone of airspace used to separate potential threats from normal traffic. An aircraft entering a TFR will be identified, intercepted, evaluated, and destroyed if required.
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Please define "required" Do i run the risk of missing a TFR in my preflight and having an air force pilot be judge, jury and executioner?
 
Animal Population Control Flights are also banned.

I expect a lot of barnyard hanky-panky during those 3 days!!!!
 
The letter looks pretty boilerplate to me. As far as lethal force, I'm certain they would and that it will be automatic in the form of a Phalanx type system. A wall of 20mm does a lot to absorb the incoming energy.
 
Palmpilot said:
"C) The United States Government may use deadly force against the airborne aircraft, if it is determined that the aircraft poses an imminent security threat." [emphasis added]

Hasn't that possibility existed with VIP TFRs all along?
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Yea, what's new about this one? I think it is worded slightly differently, but if anything, less threatening than usual.
 
FlyerQ said:
The AMA (national model airplane organization, membership mandatory at most fields because they provide insurance cheap) sends NOTAM TFR emails to members near impacted areas. I can assure you when there is VIP activity model airplane fields 20+ miles away sit empty (of sub-10 lbs line of site models). No outer ring exceptions.
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That's nice if you're a participant in an established club of some kind that looks up information like that. What about the rest of us who buys a toy at hobby lobby and goes out to play with it twice a year in the big field behind the house?

In theory one could use them to disperse an airborne power quickly.
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How? I'm not worried about one hitting me in a 150 or even an ultralight other than scratching the paint or maybe making a tiny hole in the fabric. If AF1 or an F15 or the military whoppity flopters can't take a hit from something that's a total non event to a ragged out rust bucket CE150...



Do the air pump water rockets and balsa rubber band wind up gliders count as banned model rockets and airplanes?
 
It seems like a standard VIP TFR, that the media wanted to hype due to the NATO summit. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Be careful in Chicago for NATO summit

Because shooting down an aircraft, and having it fall on innocent people is worth the risk because you know how those terrorists pick GA aircraft for as the weapon of choice.
 
fgcason said:
How? I'm not worried about one hitting me in a 150 or even an ultralight other than scratching the paint or maybe making a tiny hole in the fabric. If AF1 or an F15 or the military whoppity flopters can't take a hit from something that's a total non event to a ragged out rust bucket CE150...
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Replace the parachute with wadding and the desired powder. The motor is already designed to eject the wadding so the powder will be dispersed a hundred or so feet up where the winds can take it.

Rockets are cheap (in the realm of warfare) and have a small enough footprint that 2 man teams could do several shoot and scoots near the edge of the security zone with a nondescript car.
 
That's nice if you're a participant in an established club of some kind that looks up information like that. What about the rest of us who buys a toy at hobby lobby and goes out to play with it twice a year in the big field behind the house?
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Your plans won't be disrupted and you'll get to fly your toy. Unlike a GA plane there is basically zero probability that a model airplane flying below 200agl in a park would ever be detected nor action taken if it were. If you were to show up with one in an awkward location however, I'm sure you'd have a conversation of some sort.

Do the air pump water rockets and balsa rubber band wind up gliders count as banned model rockets and airplanes?
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Can't see why not.
 
Pi1otguy said:
Replace the parachute with wadding and the desired powder. The motor is already designed to eject the wadding so the powder will be dispersed a hundred or so feet up where the winds can take it.

Rockets are cheap (in the realm of warfare) and have a small enough footprint that 2 man teams could do several shoot and scoots near the edge of the security zone with a nondescript car.
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A kite can carry a much larger payload.

Throwing it out the window of your car will give you better targeting.
 
Sooner or later they will shoot down a VIP. Only then will anyone rethink this security idiocy. Or perhaps not.
 
Re: Be careful in Chicago for NATO summit

> Guess we'll need to install threat identifying radar next.

Or; requisition a few Stupid-Seeking missles. <g>
 
fgcason said:
That's nice if you're a participant in an established club of some kind that looks up information like that. What about the rest of us who buys a toy at hobby lobby and goes out to play with it twice a year in the big field behind the house?
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They're not worried about this:
6-3-MRJH-Science-Students-Launch-Model-Rockets.jpg


They're worried about this:
fireandsmoke.jpg

And for this you do need a license, complete with FBI-style background check; you're not going to be launching these unless under the auspices of the NAR.
 
Palmpilot said:
"C) The United States Government may use deadly force against the airborne aircraft, if it is determined that the aircraft poses an imminent security threat." [emphasis added]

Hasn't that possibility existed with VIP TFRs all along?
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That's a standard clause. It's been in the DC SFRA since it's first incarnation as a TFR.
 
gprellwitz said:
They're not worried about this:
6-3-MRJH-Science-Students-Launch-Model-Rockets.jpg


They're worried about this:
fireandsmoke.jpg

And for this you do need a license, complete with FBI-style background check; you're not going to be launching these unless under the auspices of the NAR.
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Look up the definition of "model rocket" in the FARs. It covers the first picture, not the second (which requires a waiver).
 
wsuffa said:
That's a standard clause. It's been in the DC SFRA since it's first incarnation as a TFR.
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"Imminent" means that intent must be known. How does one determine intent of a C-150 that may or may not have wandered unintentionally into a TFR? When nothing else is known, is it based solely on proximity to the VIP?
 
gprellwitz said:
They're not worried about this:
6-3-MRJH-Science-Students-Launch-Model-Rockets.jpg


They're worried about this:
fireandsmoke.jpg

And for this you do need a license, complete with FBI-style background check; you're not going to be launching these unless under the auspices of the NAR.
Click to expand...


Oh, well in that case, I'm sure someone intent on doing bad things with a hobby rocket, will see the TFR and licensing requirements and just decide they don't want to break TWO laws. :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
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