NA"Unschooling"NA

[Let'sgoflying!]

"Teaching is really hard. It's really hard."

And Giving Up is so much easier!!


Feel free to SZ this one. I just thought more would like to know what is going on. I guess one thing about it, my taxes will be lower when they phase out those outmoded public schools!

PS any rants about how bad our public schools are will fall on deaf ears with me. We know they have problems but this is not any kind of solution!

 

[Everskyward]

They will be in a world of hurt when they need to go to work and find out that there are many things required of them that they don't want to do.

We had a homeschooled kid (actually not a kid anymore) working in the office. One day when he didn't show up for work they called his home. When his mom answered she said he was sleeping and didn't want to wake him up.

 

[jsstevens]

Simply in the interests of full disclosure: All 4 of my children have been home schooled. The oldest is now in Afghanistan in the Army, the next oldest completed her AA degree a year early (after taking a semester off for a broken leg) and is one the most responsible, motivated, 21 year old dance instructors you'll ever meet. My 18 yo son graduated as a national merit semi finalist and AP scholar (probably the least responsible of the bunch, so far but my wife and I are working on it...). My youngest is 12 and is returning to home schooling this year due to an enormous dance schedule that nearly exhausted her keeping up with full time school last year.

We're not real fond of "unschooling" either. But the unschooling movement is a very small minority of home schooling.

John

 

[Bob Noel]

The article compared college rates for unschool vs public eduction. I'd be interested in the college rates for unschool vs homeschooled.

 

[SkyHog]

It sounds like a ridiculous idea, but the numbers don't lie - the college rate is huge, and the workforce integration rate is higher than traditional schools.

I don't know that I would put my kids into a program like this, but I certainly wouldn't judge others that do decide to.

One thing I can say is that I learned far more in my endeavors that were not related to middle and high school than I ever learned from school itself. That has continued through my tenure in college as well.

I think the change is spurred by the internet. The internet teaches people how to research topics, and that is something that a lot of schools are missing out on, even going so far as banning the internet as a source for scholarly papers. That is stemmed from the older generation refusing to accept new technology.

I wonder how much unschooling costs?

 

[steingar]

Ho hum. The most prevalent and detrimental problem in public schools is a lack of parental involvement, the chief component of home schooling. Big surprise it works better.

 

[SkyHog]

Ho hum. The most prevalent and detrimental problem in public schools is a lack of parental involvement, the chief component of home schooling. Big surprise it works better.

This is different - it involves 0 parental involvement, and the parents have no say in how the school works or what the children do at school, and it works better. I think that throws that argument out when it comes to public schools.

 

[Everskyward]

I think that homeschooling could be OK as long as kids get out in the real world too. I think there is a benefit to learning how to survive in an environment where people may not always like you or agree with you while you are still young. I think the tendency might be to shelter kids from different opinions too much, however.

 

[COFlyBoy]

One thing I can say is that I learned far more in my endeavors that were not related to middle and high school than I ever learned from school itself. That has continued through my tenure in college as well.

I'd suggest that maybe your experience is a bit unusual. I think you are probably more motivated than average and the classroom atmosphere just doesn't work for you.

I happened to be great at school. I could put in a nominal amount of work and just absorb whatever was being taught. It didn't take a lot of work, and the structured environment meant that I was actually being exposed to things I needed to learn. I know that I'd never have learned calculus if it had been up to me.

I have some cousins who did the unschooling thing. And they just didn't learn stuff that they didn't want to. To the point that they had no useful skills to go peddle in the work place, which lead to some painful growing up at about the college/real-life boundary.

Unschooling will work for the set of kids who are actually going to go learn life skills on their own (I suggest that this is a very very small percentage of the population). For the rest of the population there needs to be some structure (not saying public school is the answer though)

 

[pilot_dude]

The article is reminiscent of the Montessori school my niece attended for a couple years.

 

[steingar]

This is different - it involves 0 parental involvement, and the parents have no say in how the school works or what the children do at school, and it works better. I think that throws that argument out when it comes to public schools.

We have a name for students who don't learn what they don't want. We call them poor students.

I really don't see anyone picking up things like Calculus or Molecular Genetics just by poking about the yard.

 

[SkyHog]

We have a name for students who don't learn what they don't want. We call them poor students.

I really don't see anyone picking up things like Calculus or Molecular Genetics just by poking about the yard.

How important is it for a office administrator to know calc or molecular genetics? How about for a salesman, a repairman, a pilot, a bus driver, or any job that is not "Scientist" or "Molecular Geneticist?"

Yeah...that's where our current education system fails.

When I was a kid, I wanted to be a construction worker and eventually an architect. That never panned out, mostly because I wasn't learning about that stuff as a kid. Instead, I went the route of software development. Its landed me in a great place, but would I be happier if I had followed my original dreams?

Maybe.

If I had unschooled, I would have learned an awful lot about the things that would have been important though.

For those that need calc or molecular genetics, they can pick it up in college, which is what college is supposed to be for. Not so that janitors can get basic requirements to compete for a job that shouldn't require a degree.

 

[SkyHog]

For some examples of how our school system has grown to a stupidly large enterprise, here are some degrees offered at UNC:

BS in Apparel Design and Merchandising
BA in Dance Studies
BA in Dramatic Art
BA in Exercise
BA in Germanic and Slavic Languages and Literatures
BS in Information Science
BA in Management in Society
BS in Nutrition
BA in Peace, War, and Defense
BA in Religious Studies
BA in Studio Art
BA in Woman's Studies

Seriously, are these really necessary degrees? These are the types of jobs that shouldn't require a degree to get in. Note - I included Information Science in there, even though that's what a lot of my colleagues do.

 

[COFlyBoy]

If I had unschooled, I would have learned an awful lot about the things that would have been important though.

For those that need calc or molecular genetics, they can pick it up in college, which is what college is supposed to be for. Not so that janitors can get basic requirements to compete for a job that shouldn't require a degree.

You are describing the issue of "what" is taught as opposed to "how".

Unschooling falls in the "how" department.

What to teach is a big issue. How do you decide what any particular kid needs to know to prepare them for whatever they are going to do with their life? The answer is that no one knows what that kid is going to go off and do with the rest of their life, so we default to teaching a "balanced" primary education. Everyone get the same curriculum with the expectation that it hopefully covered the important things for each person. Its kind of a shotgun approach.

 

[jtheune]

The article compared college rates for unschool vs public eduction. I'd be interested in the college rates for unschool vs homeschooled.

It would be interesting to see if those schools had scholarships available. If not then the parents had significant assets to send them to private school which makes going to collage a lot easier. Also I would imagine that if the parents were willing to send their children to a radical concept school like this that they would be very involved in their children's lives. While they would not have the ability to decide what the children learned they would be involved with and encouraging to their children as they learned and that is the key, being involved.

 

[SkyHog]

You are describing the issue of "what" is taught as opposed to "how".

Unschooling falls in the "how" department.

What to teach is a big issue. How do you decide what any particular kid needs to know to prepare them for whatever they are going to do with their life? The answer is that no one knows what that kid is going to go off and do with the rest of their life, so we default to teaching a "balanced" primary education. Everyone get the same curriculum with the expectation that it hopefully covered the important things for each person. Its kind of a shotgun approach.

Unschoolers would tend to say that the "how" is determined by what the kid wants to do....

Sounds like a more logical answer than "They'll learn what we tell them to learn."

 

[COFlyBoy]

Unschoolers would tend to say that the "how" is determined by what the kid wants to do....

Sounds like a more logical answer than "They'll learn what we tell them to learn."

Seems more logical if you assume the kid will actually want to learn something. I guess that's where I'm saying this doesn't work. Some kids want to learn and will ask, and some would rather play video games.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

The article is reminiscent of the Montessori school my niece attended for a couple years.

To add something to the above comment, there is a huge range of what is practiced under the "Montessori" name. My boys go to a Montessori preschool that is very academically oriented. Yes, there is a freedom of choice in what "jobs" they do during the day, but there is definitely an instructor-enforced balance to the educational content. It is not at all comparable to the "unschooling" method, and my kids are exposed to all of the same social forces that will exist for them when they enter public school.


Jeff

 

[SkyHog]

Seems more logical if you assume the kid will actually want to learn something. I guess that's where I'm saying this doesn't work. Some kids want to learn and will ask, and some would rather play video games.

I'm not 100% supportive of the idea, but keep in mind that the numbers show that most kids do wind up learning. They all start the same way you suggest, where they'll spend time doing nothing at all, or just playing video games, but eventually, they either get bored, or realize that they have a great chance, or something, but they start learning shortly afterward.

You think I'm giving kids too much credit, I think you're giving them too little. Like most things, the reality is probably in between.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I really don't see anyone picking up things like Calculus or Molecular Genetics just by poking about the yard.

apparently this sort of thing can be done!

 

[steingar]

For some examples of how our school system has grown to a stupidly large enterprise, here are some degrees offered at UNC:

BS in Apparel Design and Merchandising

Might help if you wanted to work in the fashion industry. Lots of folks do.

BA in Dance Studies

They teach art in University. Dance is a form of art. Get over it.

BA in Dramatic Art

Also known as acting. There's folks that do it for a living. They're called actors and actresses. You may have heard of a few.

BA in Exercise

Here they call it sports medicine or exercise science. Not my favorite, but could be helpful if you want to coach sports, say at a high school.

BA in Germanic and Slavic Languages and Literatures

People have been getting degrees in languages for a long time. Seems like a really good idea, especially coupled with international business. The German economy is doing pretty well.

BS in Information Science

Irony of ironies. You complaining about an IT program on an internet forum.

BA in Management in Society

Might be what they call "business" here.

BS in Nutrition

Yeah, nobody could ever make a living knowing something like that. After all, there are absolutely no populations with dietary restrictions that might need to know how to get balanced nutrition.

BA in Peace, War, and Defense

I would think being such a conservative you would approve of studies involving war.

BA in Religious Studies

can't really defend that, but my bent does tend to go another way.

BA in Studio Art

Does that mean something like a radio or television studio, where someone might work in broadcasting?

BA in Woman's Studies

Really, studying half the population is pretty useless.

Seriously, are these really necessary degrees? These are the types of jobs that shouldn't require a degree to get in.

Says you, paragon of wisdom. I know folks who went into all these disciplines and came out employed. I know folks in all these disciplines who came out doing something else. And I know folks in all these disciplines who wound up in professional school and are very glad of their university experience.

 

[COFlyBoy]

You think I'm giving kids too much credit, I think you're giving them too little. Like most things, the reality is probably in between.

OK, I'll agree that reality is somewhere in the middle.

My kids are homeschooled. They get to learn some stuff (reading, math, writing, spelling) and they get a lot of leeway in deciding what topics to study beyond the basics. Example: History, we let the kids choose what area they'd like to study this semester.

My daughters would probably do great in an unschooling environment as long as someone was offering things to learn. My son would never have learned to read.

 

[SkyHog]

Says you, paragon of wisdom. I know folks who went into all these disciplines and came out employed. I know folks in all these disciplines who came out doing something else. And I know folks in all these disciplines who wound up in professional school and are very glad of their university experience.

You are missing the point. Why does one need a degree in acting to be able to act? Why does one need a degree in languages to be able to speak the language?

They don't. Our society has artificially inflated the value of such programs so that someone who does those things naturally or better than others can't compete unless he wastes $60K+ on a piece of paper that proves something that he already had the ability to do.

 

[dell30rb]

I went to a montessori school from 4th grade through 9th grade. 4-6th grade was less academically oriented. We had SOME tests but it was mostly activity based. You spend about half your time in small groups working directly with a teacher, and the other half on your own, doing activities. You would meet one on one with a teacher every week who would assign you activities to complete on your own during the week. An activity could be anything from math / grammar / foreign language games, to something like "write a short persuasive argument about a topic of your choice"

7-9th grade was more academically oriented, but still much different than public school

Great experience for me. That said all montessori schools are not the same. Some are really wacky.

My only experience with public school is NC State University where I went to business school. I had a few very good professors but mostly, I felt the university was just a gigantic waste. Very appalled at the amount of red tape required to do anything. There are literally 5 forms that must be signed by very hard to track down people, to get anything accomplished.

As an example I started my own company during my junior year, incorporated and everything. I tried to get my professors to work with me in an independent study involving the business, no joy. You would think a business school would encourage this type of thing. As an example I wrote proposals for independent study, developing and implementing a marketing campaign, running the books for the company, and I tried to get someone from the entrepreneurship department (yeah, they have that) to work with me, but failed. All the professors said there was too much involved in setting up something like that with the university, and they had no time to help me. Now I understand why many folks drop out of college to start a business.

 

[dell30rb]

They don't. Our society has artificially inflated the value of such programs so that someone who does those things naturally or better than others can't compete unless he wastes $60K+ on a piece of paper that proves something that he already had the ability to do.

I completely agree with you here

I have many friends who graduated from my college with good grades, only to have difficulty finding a job. Most of them have little or no real-world experience and lack common sense.

Lots of them have gotten new student loans, and gone back to school after a year or two, now under piles of paperwork. They are improving their chances of getting hired, but hardly improving their ability to function in the business world.

 

[steingar]

You are missing the point. Why does one need a degree in acting to be able to act? Why does one need a degree in languages to be able to speak the language?

One might not need a degree in either. However, if one is not born into a Chinese family, one might need school to learn Chinese. Most language programs will give one both language and cultural insight so that one might be able to function in a place like, say China. Even someone as condescending of the educational experience as you can figure out why that's a good and useful thing.

Most actors have some training in the art. Robin Williams met Christopher Reeve at Juliard, to give an example. While there are natural talents, many are nourished through University programs.

They don't. Our society has artificially inflated the value of such programs so that someone who does those things naturally or better than others can't compete unless he wastes $60K+ on a piece of paper that proves something that he already had the ability to do.

If you look at the offerings of a major university, you won't find too many things that folks have a natural talent for. Not too many people are born knowing integral calculus, international business, or microbiology. The list of "stupid majors" you gave was so short-sighted to be laughable.

 

[zaitcev]

We homeschooled our (only) daughter, primarily because the public schools in California Bay Area were pathetic and taught pupils "good citizenship" above natural sciences and anything a sensible person would consider "education". When we withdrew her, we looked unschooling programs, but their guiding phylosophy was exactly opposing our goals, so we did the traditional homeschooling.

Homeschooling is a lot of work, and frankly I suspect that unschooling is often chosen by parents who are not up to the task. If my wife weren't barred from work by her H-4 visa, we would probably not attempt it.

Regarding Mari's comment, I am first to admit that her work ethic is not very strong. When she worked a cashier, she always found a way to skip away earlier. On the other hand, I probably would try too. And remember all those programs of buying alarm clocks for poor inner city youth? Those absentees were products of public schools, most were bussed to "good" ones, too.

She is getting ready to ship out to MSc in translation in Monterrey, so the final work ethic judgement is postponed another 2 years. I'll let you know if she gets to interpret for President Palin. Some of grads from that school did.

In my observation, back in the early 00-s in California, about 2/3rds of homeschooling kids were from Christian nut families. I remember how I sent my daughter to a sleepover with a local homeschooling charter. Instead of a pillow fight, one girl started a discussion with "let's talk who is your favourite Bible character". My daughter was not terribly amused, but hey... a social learning experience. Also, they were very good-natured kids. The remaining 1/3rd were those whose parents equally were unimpressed by the public schools, but were too poor to send kids to Harker.

 

[dmccormack]

In my observation, back in the early 00-s in California, about 2/3rds of homeschooling kids were from Christian nut families. I remember how I sent my daughter to a sleepover with a local homeschooling charter. Instead of a pillow fight, one girl started a discussion with "let's talk who is your favourite Bible character". My daughter was not terribly amused, but hey... a social learning experience. Also, they were very good-natured kids. The remaining 1/3rd were those whose parents equally were unimpressed by the public schools, but were too poor to send kids to Harker.

Your ignorant, broad stroke prejudice is showing....

 

[Chip Sylverne]

If you look at the offerings of a major university, you won't find too many things that folks have a natural talent for. Not too many people are born knowing integral calculus, international business, or microbiology. The list of "stupid majors" you gave was so short-sighted to be laughable.

Admittedly it's been a long time since I got my undergrad degree, but the first two years were pretty much a core curriculum no matter what your declared major was. That covered English, a foreign language, at least one hard math and a couple hard sciences per trimester. If you survived those, then you could decide which professional course of study you wished to pursue. Talking with the kids around here who are off as freshmen this fall, it was a good system and it doesn't sound like that's changed much.
Anyone who has matriculated has heard the "look to your left and right" speech...

 

[denverpilot]

I think there is a benefit to learning how to survive in an environment where people may not always like you or agree with you while you are still young.

They could just join PoA!

 

[SkyHog]

One might not need a degree in either. However, if one is not born into a Chinese family, one might need school to learn Chinese. Most language programs will give one both language and cultural insight so that one might be able to function in a place like, say China. Even someone as condescending of the educational experience as you can figure out why that's a good and useful thing.

Most actors have some training in the art. Robin Williams met Christopher Reeve at Juliard, to give an example. While there are natural talents, many are nourished through University programs.



If you look at the offerings of a major university, you won't find too many things that folks have a natural talent for. Not too many people are born knowing integral calculus, international business, or microbiology. The list of "stupid majors" you gave was so short-sighted to be laughable.

Again, still missing the point. The list of useless degrees was not intended to say "School is stupid, don't go to college for anything," but rather to emphasize the point that for certain occupations, a degree is necessary and proper. To manage a McDonalds, or to work as a janitor, both of which are necessary and good, hard working jobs, a degree should not be necessary.

But it is.

Why? Because we take a one-size fits all approach to education, where we say "You are valueless without a degree."

Instead - why not put more value into the degrees, by having them only needed for people that need them. Want to be a software engineer? Get a BS in Computer Science. Want to be a software developer? Well....if you get the BS in Computer Science, you may eventually be a software engineer, but you don't need the degree to start in the industry and learn as you go.

But that's not an option. Instead, you have people that are over-educated and spending a lot of money on a degree that they should not have needed to get.

Scientists? You probably need a degree for that.
Cook? Well...why?

That's not devaluing the jobs I'm speaking about, its putting realistic entry barriers in place. Right now, the barrier to entry for some of these jobs is just flat out dumb.

 

[Everskyward]

They could just join PoA!

 

[steingar]

Your ignorant, broad stroke prejudice is showing....

A good sized percentage of the home school community consists of students who's parents consider the public school system to be insufficiently sectarian, at least according to my own limited readings on the subject. I might have phrased it differently, but given that he is part of a system of which you have no direct knowledge, I am afraid the ignorance is entirely on your part.

 

[Everskyward]

To manage a McDonalds, or to work as a janitor, both of which are necessary and good, hard working jobs, a degree should not be necessary.

But it is.

Show me where it says you need to have a college degree to manage a McDonalds or work as a janitor. I knew a guy who managed a McDonalds who I don't think ever set foot in a college. For sure he was not a college graduate.

 

[dmccormack]

A good sized percentage of the home school community consists of students who's parents consider the public school system to be insufficiently sectarian, at least according to my own limited readings on the subject. I might have phrased it differently, but given that he is part of a system of which you have no direct knowledge, I am afraid the ignorance is entirely on your part.

And how did you make the assessment of my knowledge?

I repeat -- broad stroked and ignorant, and somehow acceptable when it's applied to "Christians," but not for other, protected categories.

 

[denverpilot]

I would think being such a conservative you would approve of studies involving war.

Your comments were astute, except for that one.

Pushing the flawed idea that Conservatism equals "pro-War" is wholly inaccurate for the vast majority of Conservatives. Most humans, really.

Unless you're just saying all humans are war-like. That is borne out by history.

 

[SkyHog]

Show me where it says you need to have a college degree to manage a McDonalds or work as a janitor. I knew a guy who managed a McDonalds who I don't think ever set foot in a college. For sure he was not a college graduate.

http://sh.webhire.com/jobcart/view_job.cart?JOB_ID=1932213&ACCT_NAME=MCD&SITE=I&CCC_DEST=CS

Experience:
If you're energetic, committed and goal-oriented, take a look at us. All we ask of you is:

* Experience in a management or supervisory capacity in a restaurant, hospitality or retail environment
* Two years of college or related experience
* Reliable Transportation
* Open/Flexible Schedule

Janitor was a (poorly chosen) example. A better example would be a Mechanic, where an ASE certification should be plenty, until you are competing for the job with degreed individuals.

 

[steingar]

And how did you make the assessment of my knowledge?

You live in Pennsylvania. He home schooled his spawn in California. You therefore have no experience whatsoever with the home school community out there, and speak out of complete ignorance.

Unless you were directly involved in the home schooling community in the Bay Area, his experience trumps yours.

I repeat -- broad stroked and ignorant, and somehow acceptable when it's applied to "Christians," but not for other, protected categories.

While my own experiences and readings agree with the sentiment, I might have phrased it differently.

 

[steingar]

Your comments were astute, except for that one.

Pushing the flawed idea that Conservatism equals "pro-War" is wholly inaccurate for the vast majority of Conservatives. Most humans, really.

Unless you're just saying all humans are war-like. That is borne out by history.

Guilty as charged. I should have probably posted up a smiley with that one.

 

[ScottM]

I knew a guy who managed a McDonalds who I don't think ever set foot in a college. For sure he was not a college graduate.

Not even Hamburger U?

http://www.aboutmcdonalds.com/mcd/careers/hamburger_university.html