NA traction control on track driving?

Now ABS is a fantastic invention and I can’t think of hardly an instance where you wouldn’t want it active.

There are some situations. Off-road driving in general and deep snow too. I'd disabled ABS before to drive in snow(Subaru Outback). About the same stopping control and a little better stopping distance if you lock up(piling up the snow in front). Some of it depends on the actual ABS system. That car was very sensitive. They are not all created equal(similarly to ESP/TC)
 
There is traction control. And there is SKID control. And there are anti lock brakes. Different cars do these differently. Ive seen some tests where the fastest drivers were fastest with them turned on. Try it both ways, see which if fastest for you.
 
There are some situations. Off-road driving in general and deep snow too. I'd disabled ABS before to drive in snow(Subaru Outback). About the same stopping control and a little better stopping distance if you lock up(piling up the snow in front). Some of it depends on the actual ABS system. That car was very sensitive. They are not all created equal(similarly to ESP/TC)

Yeah, and on black ice/glare ice at certain temps, the ABS system can get confused... locked tires will result in a shorter stopping distance, albeit with no directional control. Years ago, one of the car mags did some testing at an ice rink.

ABS is a wonderful thing for most people in most situations, as long as they're trained to use it properly. Early systems really "pulsed" through the pedal, and studies found that folks would initially hit the pedal hard, then lessen the pressure when they felt the pulsing. Of course, proper technique is mash & hold...or never get yourself into a situation where you need it!
 
It is important to note that every manufacturer does these systems differently. While the basic premise is generally the same, the programming will be more aggressive, less aggressive, handled using different methodologies... you can't just say they're all one way or another and you do have to learn your particular system.

Still, though, I'd like to have a car again that's completely pure in nature - manual transmission, no traction control, limited slip differential, no ABS. That's the stuff.
 
There are some situations. Off-road driving in general
Especially on sand. If you are coming down off a steep dune you want to be able to exactly control (or stop) how fast your wheels are spinning. ABS has caused a lot of issues for people in dune bashing since you basically lose your breaks. Some late 90s Chevys were really bad at that. You would start to slow, the ABS would cycle on, and you'd totally lose your breaks

Still, though, I'd like to have a car again that's completely pure in nature - manual transmission, no traction control, limited slip differential, no ABS. That's the stuff.
I agree, and I wish you could still get a car like that. Even if there are laws around it you could incorporate it into a "off road / track mode" where it is all you and the machine. There is something to be said for that
 
Interestingly, if you lock the diffs on the FJ that disables (I think all) of the traction aids. The whole dash lights up. Makes sense really, if all four tires are locked in the same rotation how could the car possibly regulate the rotational of individual wheels
 
I agree, and I wish you could still get a car like that. Even if there are laws around it you could incorporate it into a "off road / track mode" where it is all you and the machine. There is something to be said for that

You can still get cars that way - they're just used and not new.

I've had some times recently when I've found myself longing for my first car - my '82 Jaguar XJ-S. I think more realistically if I did that now, though, it'd be a Cobra replica. I've had a hankering to build one but that's not in the cards at all currently.
 
Still, though, I'd like to have a car again that's completely pure in nature - manual transmission, no traction control, limited slip differential, no ABS. That's the stuff.

My Dad had a 1952 Plymouth like that.... assuming you meant no limited slip differential. It ended up in the ditch several times when I was aboard...
 
My Dad had a 1952 Plymouth like that.... assuming you meant no limited slip differential. It ended up in the ditch several times when I was aboard...

No, I meant it should be equipped with a limited slip differential. That's the way to go.

That's how my '82 Jag was equipped. Never ended up in the ditch with it, and I drove it in all kinds of crappy weather.
 
My 2011 car has a manual, RWD, and mechanical LSD. It also has fully switchable -- as far as I can tell -- TC/ESP. I drive with it off in the snow/winter(due to tire choices) and slide rear end without any interference. But in nearly any manual car and likely most automatics ABS and ESP/TC can all be defeated by pulling fuses. No need to go old school. As long as you don't mind dashboard lights. At least not too old school. My 07 Suby Outback auto had TC and ABS on the same fuse IIRC.
 
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No, I meant it should be equipped with a limited slip differential. That's the way to go.

That's how my '82 Jag was equipped. Never ended up in the ditch with it, and I drove it in all kinds of crappy weather.

Agree. Personally, I think LSD+RWD+Winter Tires is far better combination for snow than typical Open diff FWD/AWD or Part time 4WD + All-Season tires
 
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Agree. Personally, I think LSD+RWD+Winter Tires is far better combination for snow than typical Open diff FWD/AWD or Part time 4WD + All-Season tires
Interesting opinion. I haven't driven too many open diff FWD/AWD vehicles, but I would think in terms of traction and control, 4 wheels being driven is always better in snow. Maybe your point was mainly about the tire choice? If the AWD had winter tires, does that tip the scale against the RWD? I've driven many a RWD vehicle with LSD and open diff through snow/ice and can't say I prefer it over AWD/FWD. It's fun to have the rear end sliding out at will, but if I'm climbing a snow-packed hill with no momentum, I'd just assume have the AWD or FWD providing the traction.
 
Interesting opinion. I haven't driven too many open diff FWD/AWD vehicles, but I would think in terms of traction and control, 4 wheels being driven is always better in snow. Maybe your point was mainly about the tire choice? If the AWD had winter tires, does that tip the scale against the RWD? I've driven many a RWD vehicle with LSD and open diff through snow/ice and can't say I prefer it over AWD/FWD. It's fun to have the rear end sliding out at will, but if I'm climbing a snow-packed hill with no momentum, I'd just assume have the AWD or FWD providing the traction.

Nearly every FWD car has open diff. Most AWD cars are also open diff(front and rear axles) with viscous coupling or clutch pack in transfer case(front to rear). Subaru will happily spin 1 front and 1 rear (if both are stuck) wheel without sending any power to the other front and rear wheels. Not a scenario that happens often and with ESP it probably doesn't matter as LSD is simulated with brakes. But still. Most modern AWD aren't even full time.

There are many different 4wd systems out there and short of a higher end selectable mode cars they all have their drawbacks. Part time systems cannot really be used on dry,

LSD and proper weight distribution make up for a lot of shortcomings of RWD. But yes, my point was mostly about tires and the fact that vast majority of cars are not LSD equipped and quickly become 1 wheel drive with the driven wheel spinning with no purpose.

On inferior all-weather tires, AWD/4WD will overcome forward traction problem very nicely, but turning and braking are still crap. Adding to the problem is an extra weight of the system and a typical SUV that uses it

Also, it is true that - everything else being equal - FWD cars have more forward traction than RWD cars in snow. However, RWD cars have 2 ways of steering: steering wheel for front and throttle for rear. And an ability to brake with only rear wheels(engine braking) In FWD car, everything is done by front wheels. Once you lose traction on them, you are a passenger. Trying to steer and brake at the same time will quickly get you in trouble. You do need more skill with RWD, however, to keep it from spinning out of control. So, for most people, FWD is indeed better. This is why i said "personally"
 
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Rear wheel drive is not right for everyone, especially with a limited slip differential. Oversteer is something that many people don't know how to handle. But in the hands of the right driver, it's great.

My old Jeep Cherokee was pretty excellent. Its 4x4 was easy to turn on and off, otherwise it was RWD. That let me do RWD normally and then 4x4 when I needed it. My new Ram has 4x4, although I've only turned it on a couple of times to test it. Haven't had any weather yet where it's been needed.
 
Rear wheel drive is not right for everyone, especially with a limited slip differential. Oversteer is something that many people don't know how to handle. But in the hands of the right driver, it's great.

I had a '14 Mustang 5.0 Coyote track pack for a while, and it had a Torsen rear end. When the rear wheels spun up, they both spin at the same rate. Made driving the car a lot of fun when the rear slides predictably.
 
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I had a '14 Mustang 5.0 Coyote track pack for a while, and it had a Torsen rear end. When the rear wheels spun up, they both spin at the same rate. Made driving the car a lot of fun when the rear slides predictably.

The limited slip in my '82 XJ-S worked very well. The first set of tires I put on it were Firestone all seasons (note to self: When you drive 130 MPH tires at 160 for extended periods, they do start to handle funny...). They were 235/65/15s if I remember correctly. Those tires worked great in the snow and I never had any issues as a result. Very predictable powerslides all around.

When those tires wore out I put on 255/40/17s, Y-rated. As you'd imagine the tires didn't do as well in the snow (by that point I had a pickup that was my primary winter vehicle), but the car itself did very well. A lot of weight helped. The grippy nature of the tires made them less predictable for powerslides, or rather more sudden to grip.

I did have fun with the pickup in the ice. I used to do donuts in the school parking lot around a lamp post, keeping the nose of the truck pointed at the lamp post at all times. Harder to do here in Kansas where there's just not much snow.
 
Gotcha. The AWD/4WD vehicles I've been in have usually been trucks/Jeeps/SUV's, so I haven't been in too many AWD cars where the full-time systems operate with open diffs. Having the available front/rear lockers are always a bonus, too.
 
Rear wheel drive is not right for everyone, especially with a limited slip differential. Oversteer is something that many people don't know how to handle. But in the hands of the right driver, it's great.

My old Jeep Cherokee was pretty excellent. Its 4x4 was easy to turn on and off, otherwise it was RWD. That let me do RWD normally and then 4x4 when I needed it. My new Ram has 4x4, although I've only turned it on a couple of times to test it. Haven't had any weather yet where it's been needed.

Old Jeeps are great for really heavy stuff. They are also just great :). When everything is covered in snow, these part time 4wd with Lo and locked front end are awesome! But the problem with these systems is that you cannot use them in changing conditions on the road. And that's what we get here. If the road is slippery in one place and dry in another, you are in for a very interesting drive if you put it in 4wd. Push much? Or a nice bill for broken axles if you keep doing it. So, most of the time you are left driving a pretty unsophisticated RWD vehicle with very light rear end. Entertaining for sure :). 4WD is only there to get out of trouble if you got into it. I did that before with F150. Didn't really like it much.

RWD is certainly not for everyone. And not all are created equal either. However, you get a lot of people in my area overestimating their SUV's 4WD capabilities and ending up in ditches. 4WD systems mostly help with propulsion, tires help in everything. If you want maximum ability: 4WD+snow tires, but that's an overkill around here. And.. I'm not a big fan of how most AWD cars handle.
 
RWD is certainly not for everyone. And not all are created equal either. However, you get a lot of people in my area overestimating their SUV's 4WD capabilities and ending up in ditches. 4WD systems mostly help with propulsion, tires help in everything. If you want maximum ability: 4WD+snow tires, but that's an overkill around here. And.. I'm not a big fan of how most AWD cars handle.

We're in the same boat there. When I was in PA, one of the cars I had for a time was a Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4. I put studded snow tires on it in the winter. For the mountainous roads of PA, it was an unstoppable beast and worked great. But I didn't like the way it handled, and wanted to get rid of it for some time. After moving to Ohio I wasn't quite sure what to do with it, but couldn't figure out what to replace it with, so I ended up putting way too much money into it over the course of a couple years. Then I bought a BMW Z4, which was a really fun car and back to the basics of front engine/rear wheel drive.

The VR4 with studded snow tires (the summer tires were chrome wheels, looked sharp):

VR4.jpg

And I finally found a picture of my '82 Jag. Picture is circa 2003:

jag.jpg

Man was I young then.
 
We're in the same boat there. When I was in PA, one of the cars I had for a time was a Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4. I put studded snow tires on it in the winter. For the mountainous roads of PA, it was an unstoppable beast and worked great. But I didn't like the way it handled, and wanted to get rid of it for some time. After moving to Ohio I wasn't quite sure what to do with it, but couldn't figure out what to replace it with, so I ended up putting way too much money into it over the course of a couple years. Then I bought a BMW Z4, which was a really fun car and back to the basics of front engine/rear wheel drive.

Aaaa VR4! ... One of my dream cars at the time. I'm a bit jealous. Sucker was way out of my reach back then. I have never actually driven one. Recently, I started seeing a few around town. Very odd. I had a turbo Eclipse of that era(Gen 2), but not the AWD. Damn, Mitsu use to make some fun cars. Now they just slap "Eclipse" name on an SUV and call it a day. Sad

My AWD experiences come from B5 Audi S4, couple of Outbacks(belonged to my father actually), and F150(that was more for motorcycle carrying duty and doubled as winter vehicle). Weirdly, the car I disliked in snow was the 07 Outback. Traction was great, but braking and control was lacking. I did like the 99 Outback. AWDs are just too all over the place when it comes to handling. Understeer, oversteer, understeer.. all in one corner. New cars with rear bias are better, i'm sure. But i don't care. No need to waste money on the system i don't need. Once I went to RWD G35 and discovered the winter tires, there was no going back. They are so predictable, it's a pleasure to drive. Haven't been stuck yet. Admittedly, we don't get a lot of snow around here and i don't really need to go anywhere when it snows.
 
Aaaa VR4! ... One of my dream cars at the time. I'm a bit jealous. Sucker was way out of my reach back then. I have never actually driven one. Recently, I started seeing a few around town. Very odd. I had a turbo Eclipse of that era(Gen 2), but not the AWD. Damn, Mitsu use to make some fun cars. Now they just slap "Eclipse" name on an SUV and call it a day. Sad

The VR4 was a dream car of mine in high school, and I bought mine in the winter of 2010 (when I was 25). At that point the car was 17 years old. I sold it in the winter of 2015, almost exactly 5 years later, and put something on the order of 50k miles on it. I'll give you some realism to go with it.

The car really was neat in a lot of ways. It was comfortable, good for putting lots of miles on, had good baggage space (especially with the fold-down 2nd row seats). And of course, it was fast. At 17 years old and 130k miles it needed basically a new everything. The car wasn't engineered to go 200k or more with that level of horsepower, and it had a lot of wear points over time. So new engine mounts and transmission mounts, new hoses, new driveshafts, transmission started getting sloppy... I replaced basically every component on the car. The intercoolers had gotten beaten up so I put on a big front-mount, the turbos were old and starting to smoke (replaced those). The driveshaft U-joints got old so I put in a carbon fiber 1-piece driveshaft instead of the factory 3-piece. Motor mounts were completely shot and I put in polyurethane.

The car had poor sound insulation and I put 2 layers of Dynamat in pretty much the whole thing, and it needed a 3rd, but I didn't get to it. I had a hard time hitting a balance with the exhaust of loud enough to sound aggressive but quiet enough to not drive me nuts.

The car never felt particularly tight, even after doing literally everything I could to make it better. The drivetrain, being AWD and just having enough points where there could be play, just always had some play in it which you felt when driving. The car had a lot of systems in it that were unnecessary and that I ended up getting rid of over time.

Really it was a car that was at the pinnacle of 90s "We can do it, we have the technology, so let's do it whether or not there's any good reason to", and I always felt it was a car that was based on the same platform as a Diamante or some other low-performance vehicle, but then had extras bolted onto it to make the extra power. As a result, to me it never felt "purpose built". Really, my mission for it in PA (being able to handle snowy, unplowed mountain roads with studded snow tires) was the perfect job for that car. Anything beyond that, not so much. But I did learn a lot with the things I did with it. I played around with cam timing using adjustable cam gears, I played around with the turbos quite a bit, and did a lot of little changes to make the car what I wanted.

Still, I want my Cobra replica, or something like that. Factory Five is appealing. Maybe if I ever get the Ford 9N engine rebuilt and that tractor out of my garage.
 
Sounds about right on VR4. By the time i could buy that car, I knew it wasn't all that great and was used enough for me to stay away. The fact that most of them were abused didn't help. In any case, at that point i preferred fast sedans(still do). It's amazing how expensive VR4s were. You can buy a lot more car now for 1/2 of what they were in the 90s. And then there was a folding roof convertible for 20K more? Nuts. There were reasons why that generation of Japanese "super" cars disappeared by 2000s
 
Mine was old man owned and not abused when I bought it.

That was not the case when I sold it. :D
 
Sounds about right on VR4. By the time i could buy that car, I knew it wasn't all that great and was used enough for me to stay away. The fact that most of them were abused didn't help. In any case, at that point i preferred fast sedans(still do). It's amazing how expensive VR4s were. You can buy a lot more car now for 1/2 of what they were in the 90s. And then there was a folding roof convertible for 20K more? Nuts. There were reasons why that generation of Japanese "super" cars disappeared by 2000s

There’s a reason the 300ZX TT was on C&Ds Ten Best list all 6 years it was imported into the US. All the fun of the VR4 (no AWD, but added 4-wheel steering). Runs like a sewing machine and won’t break a sweat at 150K.


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