NA - Terminating employees

[Half Fast]

Disagree. It’s not all on the manager. Some people refuse to be managed, and the door is the best place for them. One loudmouth with a bad attitude can disrupt a workforce. I’ve seen it.

I agree, except I would say it falls on the manager to decide why and when to terminate someone versus trying to correct a deficiency. We expect managers to exercise judgment and take appropriate action. Coaching is not always the right answer.

If one of my engineers knowingly falsifies a test report, I'm not going to take time explaining why he shouldn't do that and coaching him to do better next time; there won't be a next time, and he's going out the door as quickly as I can arrange an escort. If he makes a mistake, though, I'll spend time working with him to rectify the matter. Sometimes it requires judgement to know the difference.

 

[bflynn]

Disagree. It’s not all on the manager. Some people refuse to be managed, and the door is the best place for them. One loudmouth with a bad attitude can disrupt a workforce. I’ve seen it.

It's not all on the manager, the employee owns the solution. If an employee knows the negative effects and chooses it anyway, then they are at fault. But if the manager has failed to explain the negative, then it's on the manager. Pete might have just written this off as an uptight manager whining.

If one of my engineers knowingly falsifies a test report

100% behind you. But we aren't talking about malfeasance, it's about a social construct....one which we think everyone should know, but trust me that messy clothing and body odor is far from uncommon.

 

[Half Fast]

100% behind you. But we aren't talking about malfeasance, it's about a social construct....one which we think everyone should know, but trust me that messy clothing and body odor is far from uncommon.

Yes, but you seemed to be generalizing the discussion.

If you want to constrain ourselves to the slob problem, even there I see different answers depending upon circumstances. The time needed for a manager to address hygiene with a minimum wage cashier might not present a good business case, especially considering the cost of offending customers. Addressing it with a highly paid subject matter expert who only interacts with a few colleagues presents a very different, and likely justifying, business case.

 

[Everskyward]

It's not all on the manager, the employee owns the solution. If an employee knows the negative effects and chooses it anyway, then they are at fault. But if the manager has failed to explain the negative, then it's on the manager.

Totally agree with this.

 

[bflynn]

The time needed for a manager to address hygiene with a minimum wage cashier might not present a good business case, especially considering the cost of offending customers.

It is probably still cheaper to fix what you have than to throw it out and buy new....

 

[Half Fast]

It is probably still cheaper to fix what you have than to throw it out and buy new....

Maybe. Maybe not. This is why some companies use trial periods, and will quickly toss someone who isn't working out. Depends on the nature and value of the position and how many replacements are waiting in the wings.

It costs my company a significant investment to find, recruit, hire, and clear an engineer. To hire the kid who empties trash cans? Not so much.

 

[Tantalum]

Be more picky when you hire them.

Yeah this. We've learned a lot about how to hire right at my company and both retain and cultivate talent. Not enough to have the objective skills the job requires, but just as is, if not more so important, are the personal human skills and willingness to learn or adapt

Surely there are exceptions, you can't foresee the future, but if you or your department have a high attrition rate there could be other root causes to look at.

Still, sucks to tell someone that their source of income is going away.

 

[MauleSkinner]

As I said...crisis of management in the US.

I’m not saying this has anything or anyone in this discussion, but in the areas of aviation that I’ve worked, often the sole criteria for a management position is either:
A. enough money to buy a company, or
B. enough longevity to be the senior guy...

no actual management training, experience, or qualification required.

Sometimes it shows.

 

[chartbundle]

I firmly believe the toughest transition in corporate life today is the transition from individual contributor to being responsible for others, simply because most companies do very little to actually develop and guide new managers/supervisors.

I think one problem is that in many companies and fields the only way to get promoted is to become management, luckily I'm skilled enough technically in IT to never have had to become a manager and in reality I start out most discussions when I'm changing jobs with "I have no desire to be management, ever."

 

[Zeldman]

I was fired by email once. I interviewed, was offered and accepted a chief pilot job. I went back to NM to pack and move. A week later I got an email saying not to bother, we hired someone else. But we will keep your resume on file for when something else opens up.

I responded with an email saying don't bother.

 

[TCABM]

I think one problem is that in many companies and fields the only way to get promoted is to become management, luckily I'm skilled enough technically in IT to never have had to become a manager and in reality I start out most discussions when I'm changing jobs with "I have no desire to be management, ever."

That paradigm has been broken.

 

[Sundancer]

As I said...crisis of management in the US. From what I've read here, it looks to me like your duty to fix it is to yourself because failing to fix it make you look bad and it wastes your time. You spent a lot more than 10 minutes fixing the results of the failing to do this well. I feel differently, I believe a manager has a duty to the people who work for him. In management terms, we're on opposite ends of the spectrum, but it doesn't change that it's important to manage your people effectively.

I don't know Pete, so I don't what words would worked, but obviously these weren't it. What is critical to change the future is to identify the behavior, identify the impact that the behavior has on a positive work environment and then get a commitment from the person to own and change the behavior in the future. And you have to explain it in ways that they care about.

For example if I was talking to you about this issue, I might say "SD, man, there's a problem. Your clothes are sloppy and you have intense body odor. Nobody wants to be around you because you stink and it is impacting your ability to be successful and advance here. This cannot continue. This is your problem, what are you going to do to fix it?" That sounds harsh to a lot of people here, but I'll bet not at all to you...in fact it probably sounds a bit tame. But it's there - the specific issue, the impact explained in a way I think you care about and then asking you to own the problem and fix it.

If you had a different personality, I would have explained it using different words - say if you were the classic laboratory scientist, then I might say that the odor and sloppy clothing makes people question your professional competency and the quality of your work. Nobody sees all the great work being done because it is eclipsed by the social blunders. Same message...very different words to account for a different motivation. I would bet this version doesn't have any impact on you at all, but there are some out there who read this and reacted very strongly.

Bottom line, you were ineffective, you failed to correct the behavior and therefore you had to waste your time firing the guy and then waste more time hiring his replacement. Take, it don't take it, but it's all on you.

Crisis of management.

I've spent more time talking about it here than getting rid of, and replacing him. We don't agree, so be it; bottom line, the outcome benefited my organization, and Pete is responsible for Pete.

 

[bflynn]

I've spent more time talking about it here than getting rid of, and replacing him.

Amazing you're putting that much effort into it.

 

[tspear]

As I said...crisis of management in the US.
....
Crisis of management.

Such an idealist. Whatever ever happened to the parents and the rest of the village teaching children the basics?

Tim

 

[Jim_CAK]

I think one problem is that in many companies and fields the only way to get promoted is to become management, luckily I'm skilled enough technically in IT to never have had to become a manager and in reality I start out most discussions when I'm changing jobs with "I have no desire to be management, ever."

That is one of the reasons why I stayed at the company I work at. They have a technical ladder you can move up without taking on direct reports. As you move through the grade levels, you have responsibility for larger projects and you can earn management level wages. At this point in my life the last thing I want is direct reports.
In contrast, my Manager has a PhD. He has about 15 direct reports and spends most of his time preparing budgets, performance plans, one on one notes . . . It is a waste of his technical abilities.

 

[Sundancer]

Maybe. Maybe not. This is why some companies use trial periods, and will quickly toss someone who isn't working out. Depends on the nature and value of the position and how many replacements are waiting in the wings.

It costs my company a significant investment to find, recruit, hire, and clear an engineer. To hire the kid who empties trash cans? Not so much.

Yep, there is a semi-objective point as to when to make the call to fire; cost/benefit, and the discipline not to be sentimental. Job security lies in being able to find another job, and that's very much on the individual, to manage his/her own career.