[NA] Interview aftermath

[SoonerAviator]

. . . So, I absolutely do judge a candidate based on their compliance with recognized social norms.

The problem with relying on "recognized" social norms is that they may not be recognized by many people or may have gone by the wayside. How many people still take their hat off when they enter a building or home? Do you arrive "fashionably late" when invited to a dinner or party? Sending a written thank you is a likely more of a relic, and may only be applicable in select fields or regions. I don't think I'd take the absence of a written Thank You into consideration when making my hiring decision. YMMV

 

[PPC1052]

The problem with relying on "recognized" social norms is that they may not be recognized by many people or may have gone by the wayside. How many people still take their hat off when they enter a building or home? Do you arrive "fashionably late" when invited to a dinner or party? Sending a written thank you is a likely more of a relic, and may only be applicable in select fields or regions. YMMV

The thing is, as the person doing the hiring, I am the one who has to decide. So, I do.

 

[Van Johnston]

But I'm still not going to read it.

Then how do you know it’s not a note saying that after the interview they are withdrawing from consideration?

 

[PPC1052]

Then how do you know it’s not a note saying that after the interview they are withdrawing from consideration?

I don't. But that only matters if we offer the job to them. In which case, I'll find that out.

 

[TCABM]

It's not that email that gets you in trouble.

Right, but thats a different issue from giving applicants a yay or nay after an interview ? Agree, if you start counsel people on what they are missing, you open yourself up, if you do get that call the answer is: 'The hiring process is complete and it is our policy not to comment any further beyond that.'

It generally isn’t the email or the follow up call. It’s the compliance audit that demonstrates you actively treat applicants differently throughout the talent acquisition process, because it’s really difficult to ensure every single applicant that doesn’t even make it to screening receives that same notification.

That’s just at the federal level. Different states have differing employment laws and regulations, so if you’re operating a business in one state and accepting applications off the internet, you may be violating laws that protect applicants living in a different state.

Which opens a then larger question of how do you ensure rejected applicants aren’t discriminated against for future opportunities, because you have this database that includes information that the candidate has been rejected once. If you never formally reject a candidate, then they remain an applicant and in the pool for other positions (and may be recruited for that, too).

For large and/or highly regulated companies, the risk isn’t worth an EEOC investigation and potential impact.

 

[JOhnH]

So hoping to get feedback about this issue. Maybe someone who does the hiring can elighten me

I'm looking for a job not aviation but professional nonetheless

I spend time looking online for a job, write a cover letter or revise my standard one, submit my application. Some I get immediate rejection which is fine but some I get in person interviews. I mentally prepare for it, I research the company, I doll myself up and drive over to the interview.

Some are ten minutes, most recently it went on for two hours (I met four people) and then I get nothing. No response, no sorry we selected someone else. Is it really that hard to send an email thanking me for coming in and giving me closure?

Yes I send a thank you note to them for their time

Saracelicia,
I sincerely apologize to you and the hundres (dare I say thousands) of people I failed to send followup/rejection letters to. My excuses are many but mostly invalid.

I had a small business. I usually had a steady stream of people applying for jobs and therefore rarely had to advertise. But on the rare occasion I had to advertise for a job, it was because I was short handed. It was a last resort because when I advertised, I got hundreds of applications from people that were not nearly qualified, even on paper. If I gave them an interview, and if they actually showed up, most of them were obviously lying on their resumes. I would interview scores of people before finding one that deserved a second interview.

By time I found two or three people that deserved a 2nd interview, I have gone through so many applicants I can't even remember who they are or why I rejected them. And since I am already short handed, I just didn't feel I had the time to write a personal rejection letter. For one thing, I do think they deserved a personalized rejection. For another, I HATED writing rejection letters. So they just sort of went to the bottom of my absolutely HUGE to-do list. I never sent form letters because I could never come up with one that was appropriate (true).

I sold my business 3 years ago, but I still feel a pang of guilt about that. Especially when I hear relatives and friends relating storeies such as yours. All I can do is say that you just have to accept it.

So again, I apologize to you for all of those like me that failed to do the right thing.

 

[dtuuri]

Of course it cuts it. You don't get to make the rule either. I do. I owe them nothing other than a fair consideration of their merits for the job. I owe my partners a duty to select the best qualified candidate. I act accordingly.

You'll have no manners, though.

 

[dtuuri]

Saracelicia,
I sincerely apologize to you and the hundres (dare I say thousands) of people I failed to send followup/rejection letters to. My excuses are many but mostly invalid.

I had a small business. I usually had a steady stream of people applying for jobs and therefore rarely had to advertise. But on the rare occasion I had to advertise for a job, it was because I was short handed. It was a last resort because when I advertised, I got hundreds of applications from people that were not nearly qualified, even on paper. If I gave them an interview, and if they actually showed up, most of them were obviously lying on their resumes. I would interview scores of people before finding one that deserved a second interview.

By time I found two or three people that deserved a 2nd interview, I have gone through so many applicants I can't even remember who they are or why I rejected them. And since I am already short handed, I just didn't feel I had the time to write a personal rejection letter. For one thing, I do think they deserved a personalized rejection. For another, I HATED writing rejection letters. So they just sort of went to the bottom of my absolutely HUGE to-do list. I never sent form letters because I could never come up with one that was appropriate (true).

I sold my business 3 years ago, but I still feel a pang of guilt about that. Especially when I hear relatives and friends relating storeies such as yours. All I can do is say that you just have to accept it.

So again, I apologize to you for all of those like me that failed to do the right thing.

Inexcusable. Form letter, mass mailing, done.

 

[PPC1052]

Different states have differing employment laws and regulations, so if you’re operating a business in one state and accepting applications off the internet, you may be violating laws that protect applicants living in a different state.

If an out of state applicant sends us a resume, we are not subject to the employment laws of that other state. That other state has no personal jurisdiction to enforce their crazy employment laws against us because we have not purposefully availed ourselves of the privilege of doing business in that other state, and we have no place of business outside of this state.

 

[PPC1052]

You have no manners, though.

False. I have plenty of manners. I think based on our past exchanges, you don't really mean that, anyway. I will accept that my manners are not perfect.

 

[TCABM]

If an out of state applicant sends us a resume, we are not subject to the employment laws of that other state. That other state has no personal jurisdiction to enforce their crazy employment laws against us because we have not purposefully availed ourselves of the privilege of doing business in that other state, and we have no place of business outside of this state.

Though we have no physical presence in some other states, we do maintain licenses to practice our business there, which is why it matters to us.

I think this just goes to show how complex the environment is for something as simple as a status notification.

Which is why each employer has to figure out what works best for them and their business model.

 

[weilke]

If all my pre interview communication with a candidate has been through email or indeed messages, I wouldnt expect a handwritten thank you note after the interview.

 

[PPC1052]

Though we have no physical presence in some other states, we do maintain licenses to practice our business there, which is why it matters to us.

I think this just goes to show how complex the environment is for something as simple as a status notification.

Which is why each employer has to figure out what works best for them and their business model.

No dispute there. And I don't pretend to know the right answer for your circumstances.

 

[PPC1052]

You have no manners, though.

Your posts reflect a level of offense, and I'm curious why you care. Not reading the letter makes no difference at all to the candidate. I just shared my proclivities on this site out of a momentary lapse into full candor. Would the rejected candidate feel better if I read their note? Would the accepted candidate be offended if they found out I didn't read their note? It's totally irrelevant. This isn't a trick question, by the way. There's no right or wrong answer. Just curious as to your process here.

 

[JOhnH]

Inexcusable. Form letter, mass mailing, done.

Yeah, I believed that for the first few years too. (And I think I admitted in my statement that my excuses were invalid).

But I also found that this is ultimately true too.

Yes, it is.

I had a friend in HR and she said they were told not bother getting back because if they do and say you didn't get the job, then the interviewee always asks why not, and if they say ANYthing that can be construed as some sort of discrimination, (and pretty much anything you say can be nowadays) here comes a lawsuit. So it's cheaper just to be rude and not worry about any sort of litigation. I had a friend who looked for a job for almost a year and went through a lot of the same things. Interview, and no follow up responses.

No good deed goes unpunished. When you send a rejection letter, you can often look forward to the awkward question of "WHY"? Any answer to that is either heart wrenching or legally dangerous.

Now let me make another excuse. I didn't have a trained HR department. I was busy trying to run a small business. I fought the fires that were about to burn me down. Not the ones that were smoldering under a rug.

Lastly, I don't mean to justify this. I am trying to help explain why it happens.

 

[flhrci]

I would like to see the cases where the fact that a company sent an email that says....

'Thanks for coming to the interview last week. At this point, the position has been filled. Good luck in your further pusuits.'

The Management​

....was successfully used by someone to argue discrimination in the hiring process. Sure, you can't write in your rejection that you dont hire wimins or that the applicants hair was too curly, but what would the legal argument be that hinges on a nondescript rejection message ?

I personally believe every job I have applied to in the last 4 years or so, I have been discriminated against due to my age or college background. Can't prove it though.

 

[EdFred]

Interviews are a form of discrimination. It's just a matter of whether or not the discrimination is allowed under the law. If they weren't discriminatory you would just hire the first person that walked in the door.

 

[dtuuri]

Your posts reflect a level of offense, and I'm curious why you care. Not reading the letter makes no difference at all to the candidate. I just shared my proclivities on this site out of a momentary lapse into full candor. Would the rejected candidate feel better if I read their note? Would the accepted candidate be offended if they found out I didn't read their note? It's totally irrelevant. This isn't a trick question, by the way. There's no right or wrong answer. Just curious as to your process here.

I care about you, that's why. Your attitude here will shoot you and your firm in the foot. Especially with social media. Here's an article explaining how this will come around to bite you: https://www.thebalancecareers.com/how-to-turn-down-job-applicants-right-1918795

It ought to be self-evident that leaving people you solicited applications from hanging in never-never land is unmannerly. Applicants will talk among themselves of your treatment and you will reap what you've sown in the end. My advice is to treat applicants like your best clients. They do a favor for you by applying. Thank them for helping. Make them feel good. Harvest the good will later.

 

[weilke]

It generally isn’t the email or the follow up call. It’s the compliance audit that demonstrates you actively treat applicants differently throughout the talent acquisition process, because it’s really difficult to ensure every single applicant that doesn’t even make it to screening receives that same notification.

That’s just at the federal level. Different states have differing employment laws and regulations, so if you’re operating a business in one state and accepting applications off the internet, you may be violating laws that protect applicants living in a different state.

Which opens a then larger question of how do you ensure rejected applicants aren’t discriminated against for future opportunities, because you have this database that includes information that the candidate has been rejected once. If you never formally reject a candidate, then they remain an applicant and in the pool for other positions (and may be recruited for that, too).

For large and/or highly regulated companies, the risk isn’t worth an EEOC investigation and potential impact.

I understood the original post to mean that she went to a 2hr interview and never heard anything from the company. If every applicant who shows for an interview gets an message either way (not hard to do if you use a recruitment website), I would like to see the regulation or case law that would tell me that I can or cannot do this. I dont send replies to the ones who are never invited to an interview. 90% of them simply dont qualify under the most basic job requirements that I have listed in the ad.

 

[eman1200]

I personally believe every job I have applied to in the last 4 years or so, I have been discriminated against due to my age or college background. Can't prove it though.

I’m curious what line of work?

 

[TCABM]

I understood the original post to mean that she went to a 2hr interview and never heard anything from the company. If every applicant who shows for an interview gets an message either way (not hard to do if you use a recruitment website), I would like to see the regulation or case law that would tell me that I can or cannot do this. I dont send replies to the ones who are never invited to an interview. 90% of them simply dont qualify under the most basic job requirements that I have listed in the ad.

There’s not a regulation that says you can or can’t do this.

There are EEOC requirements that applicants are subject to the same processes. For us, EEOC oversight isn’t that big of a deal. Except we’re also subject to OFCCP scrutiny which demands certain action plans. Then, our big regulatory agencies like FINRA, The Fed, SEC, etc examine our entire regulatory structure.

So for us, our process makes the most business sense.

Your business may not be subject to the same regulatory oversight.

 

[PPC1052]

I care about you, that's why. Your attitude here will shoot you and your firm in the foot. Especially with social media. Here's an article explaining how this will come around to bite you: https://www.thebalancecareers.com/how-to-turn-down-job-applicants-right-1918795

It ought to be self-evident that leaving people you solicited applications from hanging in never-never land is unmannerly. Applicants will talk among themselves of your treatment and you will reap what you've sown in the end. My advice is to treat applicants like your best clients. They do a favor for you by applying. Thank them for helping. Make them feel good. Harvest the good will later.

I don’t disagree with the article. I think you missed the part where I expressly stated in my first post that we respond and let applicants know we have filled the position and will keep their resume on file for future positions. (And we really do). All I said is I don’t read the thank you notes.

 

[dtuuri]

I don’t disagree with the article. I think you missed the part where I expressly stated in my first post that we respond and let applicants know we have filled the position and will keep their resume on file for future positions. (And we really do). All I said is I don’t read the thank you notes.

Sorry for the mistake.

 

[midwestpa24]

We send a form letter through snail mail. Never had a candidate respond to one. Email or telephone call its too easy to ask "Why?" Letter in the mailbox just gets read and tossed, end of story.

If ever asked, the best candidate for the job was selected. Sorry.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I am a sweetheart to work for. You would be very happy if you are good. Business etiquette expects that people send a thank you after an interview. If you can't do it, then that tells me something about your qualifications for the job. So, I absolutely do judge a candidate based on their compliance with recognized social norms.

Where is that a recognized social norm? I have never heard of that ... ever.

 

[Ravioli]

I am a sweetheart to work for. You would be very happy if you are good. Business etiquette expects that people send a thank you after an interview. If you can't do it, then that tells me something about your qualifications for the job. So, I absolutely do judge a candidate based on their compliance with recognized social norms.

You sir, are denying some town of its idiot,

"All candidates must send me a thank you, or they are unqualified."

but paraphrasing: I need not respond to them in kind, 'cause I'm too damn important.

Good luck sweetheart. And be carefull where you use that phrase.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I care about you, that's why. Your attitude here will shoot you and your firm in the foot. Especially with social media. Here's an article explaining how this will come around to bite you: https://www.thebalancecareers.com/how-to-turn-down-job-applicants-right-1918795

It ought to be self-evident that leaving people you solicited applications from hanging in never-never land is unmannerly. Applicants will talk among themselves of your treatment and you will reap what you've sown in the end. My advice is to treat applicants like your best clients. They do a favor for you by applying. Thank them for helping. Make them feel good. Harvest the good will later.

There must some really narcissistic people applying for jobs to need that much butt kissing.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

There must some really narcissistic people applying for jobs to need that much butt kissing.

Not so much about butt kissing as much as reputation. Word of mouth is powerful and a company that acts like its your privilege to be interviewing there, like you're a dime a dozen is just not going to attract as well qualified candidates. Whereas if its a positive experience and the company culture is highly regarded, more people will be eager to apply and go to this location. Look at Google, it's regarded as one of the best places to work so they have the top talent there, because they care about their employees and retention is good.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Not so much about butt kissing as much as reputation. Word of mouth is powerful and a company that acts like its your privilege to be interviewing there, like you're a dime a dozen is just not going to attract as well qualified candidates. Whereas if its a positive experience and the company culture is highly regarded, more people will be eager to apply and go to this location. Look at Google, it's regarded as one of the best places to work so they have the top talent there, because they care about their employees and retention is good.

Oh. Hmm. I’m just a pilot so it I haven’t worked for that level of employer I guess. I’ve never experienced anything like what you guys are talking about. Nor heard of it before... it seems odd to me regardless.

 

[TCABM]

Oh. Hmm. I’m just a pilot so it I haven’t worked for that level of employer I guess. I’ve never experienced anything like what you guys are talking about. Nor heard of it before... it seems odd to me regardless.

Indeed gives their employees a ‘workload’ and due date. Indeedians manage their own time to meet the deadline.

Free (good) food if you actually come into the office. Beer, too.

My niece works at Indeed Austin. She goes in once a week, about noon on Thursday’s for food truck day and usually leaves by 2p. Usually starts her workload Monday afternoon and is done Thursday evening.

Apparently, they also offer unlimited PTO (would love the details on that).

 

[PPC1052]

You sir, are denying some town of its idiot,

"All candidates must send me a thank you, or they are unqualified."

but paraphrasing: I need not respond to them in kind, 'cause I'm too damn important.

Good luck sweetheart. And be carefull where you use that phrase.

Your reading comprehension skills have failed you this time.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Apparently, they also offer unlimited PTO (would love the details on that).

Lots of companies offer this. The caveat is that it must be approved by your manager. Studies also show that people actually take less PTO when it's unlimited because they don't feel the need to use it up or get the most out of their allotment - and the kicker is they feel happier because they know they could take the vacation if they want to. Win-win. More work gets done, workers are happier.

 

[TCABM]

Lots of companies offer this. The caveat is that it must be approved by your manager. Studies also show that people actually take less PTO when it's unlimited because they don't feel the need to use it up or get the most out of their allotment - and the kicker is they feel happier because they know they could take the vacation if they want to. Win-win. More work gets done, workers are happier.

I get the theory, I’m more curious on how they handle the outlier cases where there may be potential for abuse, because there’s somebody who’s going to test the limits.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm looking for a new job right now too, and it is definitely aggravating. Haven't even managed to get past the ATS software yet, I don't think. Always get an immediate "thanks for applying" email after submitting resumé and such online. Nobody has yet answered the "who is the hiring manager" question to address a cover letter to, nor will they tell you who you can follow up with, and a week or two later you get the nice form "thanks for applying but we're going in another direction" email.

It really is true that it's not what you know, it's who you know. I'm about ready to dust off the ol' logbook and do my part to alleviate the "pilot shortage".

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I'm looking for a new job right now too, and it is definitely aggravating. Haven't even managed to get past the ATS software yet, I don't think. Always get an immediate "thanks for applying" email after submitting resumé and such online. Nobody has yet answered the "who is the hiring manager" question to address a cover letter to, nor will they tell you who you can follow up with, and a week or two later you get the nice form "thanks for applying but we're going in another direction" email.

It really is true that it's not what you know, it's who you know. I'm about ready to dust off the ol' logbook and do my part to alleviate the "pilot shortage".

Nows a good time. If you have a pulse you can get a job.

 

[EdFred]

Anyone can get a job, it's getting a good job that's a bit more difficult.

 

[weilke]

I get the theory, I’m more curious on how they handle the outlier cases where there may be potential for abuse, because there’s somebody who’s going to test the limits.

Probably works best in 'at will' employment states and in environments where people come to work for more than the paycheck.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Nows a good time. If you have a pulse you can get a job.

Yeah, you would think, but...

Anyone can get a job, it's getting a good job that's a bit more difficult.

Ed's right. I think maybe this job market is prompting more people to move around, meaning the pool of candidates is still pretty large for any given position. That means the better positions are still hard to get, and the easier ones are the ones people left because the company was no good, etc...

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Anyone can get a job, it's getting a good job that's a bit more difficult.

Depends on how you define good. I’m happy. Many that I work with are miserable. I would like better pay and work rules but to get that I would have to make significant sacrifices in other areas. Ultimately while I could make double the pay at a major I’m pretty happy in my spot on the JV team. Just depends on ones goals and how we value pay vs other aspects of the job.

 

[OkieFlyer]

Where is that a recognized social norm? I have never heard of that ... ever.

Me neither.