[NA] First Road Experiance in the Snow!! [NA]

ARFlyer

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So a surprise snow storm hit AR this afternoon. Yesterday it wasn't even in the forecast. Well, I ended up doing my first ever winter driving. This is a write up about my experience. FYI, I drive a Subaru Forester. Please feel free to give me tips or advice. I apologize upfront if I'm a little long in some areas. This is a new thing for me.

I found myself staring into snow at about 3000' this afternoon with a student and didn't think twice about it. I slowly got back to the airport, finished up with the student and head to my apartment. I was planning on heading to the parents house this weekend about 70 miles north. So I left after filling up with gas about 5:45 and got home about 7:45.

The interstate was dry for about the first 10 miles. Then I noticed that the trucks were leaving behind tracks along with blowing snow. The interstate only started to get slick after I saw the road a ghostly white but could still make out the lines. I decided at that point I was crazy to be around semis that were sliding around and idiots doing 80+ in their BMWs. At this point I was only doing 50 to keep the AWD from flipping out.

At the next exit I got onto a US Highway that parallels the interstate. I found it to completely covered in snow. However, I found it easier to drive and had no problems with sliding. I figured this to because the snow had already packed onto the road surface. I used 3-2 gear on hills and found hills to be a non issue.

Getting into the city proper I was force to get back on the interstate as the US Highway ended. I was extremely surprise to find this section to completely dry with only blowing snow. 10 miles south the interstate was impassible. I can only guess that increased traffic kept the dry snow from sticking. Only after merging onto another interstate I found the road to be snow covered with near white out conditions.

My only issue the whole trip was getting on a county road that switch backs up a steep hill. You gain about 400' in about a half mile. I found about 20 cars stopped at the bottom for no apparent reason. Only after sitting for 20 minutes, I found out the locals were tell people they were idiots to attempt going up the hill. About 10 cars had tried and ended up sideways blocking the road. However, I had no issue climbing it in 2 second gear. I even stopped to see if a friend needed a lift. However, people were cussing me out and saying f*** you as I passed them. I was able to stay around 30 MPH with out causing any danger to myself. At the point I got home the roads had about 2" of snow.

I was taught by my parents to always stay moving, stay slow if needed and don't change anything over bridges or turns. I applied all of that and my pilot training and found it to be a fairly easy. So is this a one off lucky event? Or my "training" and car got me through?
 
I'd say your parents taught you well!:thumbsup:

Don't let the front wheel drivers fool you though, AWD or 4WD does help, but it's not a cure all.

Just like flying, don't let "gethereitus" make you make mistakes.

And watch out for the idiots going 80 in their BMW's, we have them here in Colorado too! :mad2:
 
I'd say your parents taught you well!:thumbsup:

Don't let the front wheel drivers fool you though, AWD or 4WD does help, but it's not a cure all.

Just like flying, don't let "gethereitus" make you make mistakes.

And watch out for the idiots going 80 in their BMW's, we have them here in Colorado too! :mad2:

I found the AWD to not be a cure all a few months ago in some heavy rain. I noticed it again tonight during that sliding event on the interstate. It doesn't like slick roads but it seems to love the snow packed ones.
 
Another tip: do one thing at a time, either accelerate, brake or turn. Don't try to turn and accelerate or turn and brake at the same time.
 
Sounds like like awd, traction control, and lastly not doing anything dumb was key.
 
The more slick it is, the more gentle your control inputs need to be.

And the slower your speed needs to be to respond to them.
 
The more slick it is, the more gentle your control inputs need to be.

And the slower your speed needs to be to respond to them.

Like reacting to flight attitude disruptions. Just like you said. I noticed someone who kept doing driver induce fishtailing. I was always told to let go for a second and let the car stabilize on a vector. Then you can fix the sliding or turn.
 
If your rear end breaks loose, turn the front tires (into the slide) so they track with your direction of travel.

Watch dirt track racers. Ease off on the accelerator though if you want to recover
 
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I was always told to let go for a second and let the car stabilize on a vector.

Let off the gas/brake pedal, yes. But work the steering wheel fast, fingers clear and spin with your palm if you need to. Just keep the front tires aligned w your direction of travel
 
Let off the gas/brake pedal, yes. But work the steering wheel fast, fingers clear and spin with your palm if you need to. Just keep the front tires aligned w your direction of travel

So basically spin the wheel as fast as needed to get the tires in line with your direction.

Whats the best way to react to small slips side to side? Like being pushed by a semi wake. I just tried to keep it straight and did very small counter corrections.
 
As you gain experience in snow you realize that sooner or later you will lose control, anyone who tells you otherwise is full of crap or doesn't drive in snow. The key, like flying, is energy management. Snow conditions can change in an instant when driving, packed snow is pretty predictable to drive in, it becomes an issue when there is ice underneath.

Changing elevation can cause a road to go from packed snow to ice fairly quickly when you are driving. So the key is energy management. And that is pretty simple, don't drive too fast for the conditions. Getting to speed is generally much easier than stopping, remember this. Slow down for corners, nothing is worse than going around a bend in the road and discovering you are going too fast (have too much energy for traction conditions) half way thru the bend, bad things begin to happen.

Leave plenty of room to slow down, sometimes ABS brakes increase stopping distances, be ready for it. One winter, a year after I got my license to drive, I was going down the road, had just started snowing, saw what turned out to be lady, headed toward a stop sign at about 25 mph, I noticed she wasn't slowing down, so I did, she waited to the last minute, put on her brakes, slid through the stop sign, across a two lane, divided road and into a guard rail, wrecking her car. Ooops.

Another time, I crested a hill where I saw cars in both directions spinning toward each other because the conditions went from packed snow to ice. Turns out I had broken the too fast for conditions rule ( I was going about 30) and was on a collision course with spinning cars. I tried the brakes, nothing, my car was veering toward the left, so I went with it, (there were no other cars to hit over there) I ended up in the opposite lane breakdown lane going the wrong way. Fortunately the snow hadn't turned to ice there and no one had spun into my way, I got by the bad spot and went on my way, slower this time. The guy behind me chose to go right and wrecked.

The key to course correction when slipping is small deliberate corrections. Turning the wheel to quickly or too far can result in a spin where you become a passenger. Usually when driving, I can feel the car getting loose long before passengers, that is when you need to slow down, not over control and plan ahead.

When on the highway you will see the heroes in SUVs, driving in the left lane, 20 mph faster than everyone else. Sometimes it's tempting to follow them, don't. Usually, if the conditions are bad, you will see them off the road in a few miles, through the snow bank, 50 feet into the meridian, or on their side.

The most important thing to remember about snow driving, the cockier you get, the more humbling the lesson.
 
Your parents and your being a pilot both helped. In terms of energy management, driving in snow is very similar to flying. (It also saves a lot of gas if you apply it in good weather, as well.)

The other thing that's hard for some people to get used to is that there will be times when you're not in full control. You're basically riding a sled. Your front wheels become runners, and using them that way provides better control and helps avoid skids. After some experience, you kind of learn to anticipate these times, to control the vehicle through them properly as best you can, and to recover from them quickly.

The attached pictures are of my driveway and "my" hill, from a couple of days ago. They were taken about two-thirds through the snow for the day. The plow guy came when we thought the storm had passed, and then it kicked in again that afternoon.

-Rich
 

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And don't take snow course adjustment advice from guys from North Carolina. ;)
 
And don't take snow course adjustment advice from guys from North Carolina. ;)

LOL. People call out of work in Charlotte when it rains heavily.

Although I am now living in CLT, born and raised in NJ and used to love driving in the snow (4WD of course). But what saved my a$$ a # of times was the stoopid sht I did as a kid and as a new driver. We used to do some real dumb stuff in the car, but it taught me how to control a sliding car. The method people have pointed out already of easy control inputs and turning the wheel into the direction the rear end is kicking out was second nature to me.
Best advice is not to drive in it if you really don't have to.
Sometimes just letting off the accelerator is enough to get you out of a minor slip.
Be careful!
 
And remember, there is no traction on ice. You will lose control real fast on an icy road. AWD/4WD might help. If the tires are spinning you are going for a ride. Power off, steer into the skid, and watch your braking.
And some people are fair weather and dry road only and should learn to stay home when the weather comes.
 
Thanks for all of the advice.

The roads here are still horrible. It will be at least tomorrow before most of the major routes are clear. The county either jumps the gun or completely bombs on plowing. This "storm" it seems they bombed. Almost no one knew that a storm was coming. The local weather guys said it would be a very light 1-2" and would not cause any headaches. Well it ended up around 3-4" on every surface. So like Atlanta everyone was still in town.
 
Does anyone use chains anymore?

They have some better one's now that are easier to put on. Whenever I go to cold country driving, I put a set in the trunk and have them ready.

The old school chains were a devil to install, and they would come loose and beat your car to death sometimes.
 
Although four wheel drive gives you an advantage during many driving conditions, it does not improve your braking. The 1922 Duesenberg pioneered four wheel brakes on American cars and this major improvement was soon copied by all manufacturers. So you may be able to go better with FWD but you can't stop any better than the next guy. The post above saying it is all about energy management is 100% correct.

The best thing to do when driving in snow.... slow down! You have the second best thing down as well... Don't stop!

-Skip
 
I didn't read some of the longer responses but, if no one has mentioned it, the best way to learn how to drive in snow is to find a big empty parking lot during the first snow of the year and go play, play, play.

My dad had me doing this starting when I was thirteen. We'd find a big parking lot, he'd play for a while and then let me play for a while. It's a hoot and it's a quick way to learn enery management in your car.

I still do this every year. I'll always be a kid when it comes to snow. I love it.
 
I didn't read some of the longer responses but, if no one has mentioned it, the best way to learn how to drive in snow is to find a big empty parking lot during the first snow of the year and go play, play, play.

My dad had me doing this starting when I was thirteen. We'd find a big parking lot, he'd play for a while and then let me play for a while. It's a hoot and it's a quick way to learn enery management in your car.

I still do this every year. I'll always be a kid when it comes to snow. I love it.

+11ty billion.

That's what I did with my kids.

You have a good car for those conditions.

Two problems with snow:
Deep snow - good tread and ground clearance help here. This is where people just get stuck. Take it easy, and maybe toss a shovel in the back.

Hard packed snow - can be just as slick as ice. This is where people wreck and clog things up at intersections and hills. Starting in 2nd or 3rd gear can help, keep a light touch on the gas, and try as hard as you can to keep from coming to a complete stop.
 
the best way to learn how to drive in snow is to find a big empty parking lot during the first snow of the year and go play, play, play.

Used to do that every winter. Getting hard to find an empty parking lot now days.
 
Although four wheel drive gives you an advantage during many driving conditions, it does not improve your braking. The 1922 Duesenberg pioneered four wheel brakes on American cars and this major improvement was soon copied by all manufacturers. So you may be able to go better with FWD but you can't stop any better than the next guy. The post above saying it is all about energy management is 100% correct.

The best thing to do when driving in snow.... slow down! You have the second best thing down as well... Don't stop!

-Skip

I thought the best thing to do in the snow was to set the cruise control and start texting?:D

My Lexus suv is invincible, right?
 
I didn't read some of the longer responses but, if no one has mentioned it, the best way to learn how to drive in snow is to find a big empty parking lot during the first snow of the year and go play, play, play.

My dad had me doing this starting when I was thirteen. We'd find a big parking lot, he'd play for a while and then let me play for a while. It's a hoot and it's a quick way to learn enery management in your car.

I still do this every year. I'll always be a kid when it comes to snow. I love it.

I was doing this with my son and a local johnny lawman came by and read us the riot act. I told him I was teaching my son to drive on the snow, I thought I was either going to be beat or hauled off to jail. I just gave in and started saying things like...Your right..he was happy when he was right..even though he was wrong....

Tony
 
We got about 5" of fresh snow last night. I'm on the road before the county plows wake up, so trundling down the hill can be interesting sometimes. DOT at least got the highway plowed. Was able to maintain 50mph, until I got the to the last hill heading into town. They tossed a crapload of ice melt down. So, instead of driving on 2" of dry packed snow, I was now on partially melted slush. Which turned a nice ride into work into a mess. Had to slow to 25, and even then, I could feel the car slipping around. I'm really happy I leave for work at 0415. No one else on the road to worry about. :)

Looking back down my driveway, still not enough to warrant firing up the Kubota.

 
I was doing this with my son and a local johnny lawman came by and read us the riot act. I told him I was teaching my son to drive on the snow, I thought I was either going to be beat or hauled off to jail. I just gave in and started saying things like...Your right..he was happy when he was right..even though he was wrong....

Tony
It is retarded, Jonny law doesn't like people doing that anywhere in the Northeast. Was teaching a southern transplant in a parking lot and got yelled at by a cop until the cop heard her accent. Guess you are supposed to learn spin recovery from a book.
 
Just started snowing here again. About an inch of sloppy, slippery stuff so far - I've already seen at least one car off the road.
 
Late to the thread but sounds like you "get it". Energy/speed management, and gentle corrections.

You know how many total dumbasses we have living HERE -- where this is often a daily event -- who can't figure out the basics?! :)

This was my drive in and back home on Wednesday, I think it was...?

gezyzyny.jpg


ge3epaby.jpg


Pretty typical.

You did get to enjoy the awesomeness of the Subaru. Heh. Their AWD is one of the best out there.

It's a totally different experience trying to whip a Subaru around an icy parking lot and any other front or rear drive car or truck. 2WD or 4WD.

One thing you'll notice if you finally ever get in real trouble in the Subaru... They have an incredible tendency to understeer in a slide, which makes for an interesting recovery technique not recommended in most vehicles and definitely not recommended without practice: Turn the wheel further into the skid and mash the accelerator.

Totally back-ass-ward. You can literally drag the thing around the corner with power if you have any traction at all. Takes practice.

Two ditch "events" this year so far. One in the Subaru, one in the truck. Both were at intersections of two deserted County roads where the cars stopping had packed the snow down into ice. Subaru, just goosed it around and ended up facing the wrong way instead of sliding through the t-intersection.

Truck is a totally different thing. Slid into the far side median of a regular intersection but not fully into the ditch, and then remembered I had turned off 4WD. Heh. Oops. 4WD and drive back up into the road.

The truck (or anything heavy) just slides almost straight no matter what you do, so you're going for a ride. Mass and inertia. 8000 lbs of "Well ... crap ... where is it going to stop?"

:) :) :)

With the two miles of dirt road back in here, and about seven miles of iffy paved county roads, this is the first house I've lived in where I couldn't follow grandpa's rule... "4WD is to get you home and you stay there after that."

The truck is usually locked in 4WD just for better behavior until you hit the pavement, most days. The Subaru is always on, of course. It's also why we got Karen her truck.
 
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