NA - Farms

NealRomeoGolf

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I was driving by some corn fields this morning (not unusual for Central IL) and saw 80 acres of farmland for sale. That got me thinking. How many acres does one need to be a solvent farmer (corn and beans)? Hundreds of acres? Thousands? I have no idea.
 
Finally a question i can answer! (sort of)

Like most things in life, the answer is complicated. I farm 1200 acres, essentially all rented. Basically no hired labor, although I do get a little help during harvest. I make a decent living...obviously enough to afford to fly little piston airplanes and raise my family and put a little away for the future, but let's just say I don't see myself ever shopping for a TBM. A lot of my neighbors wonder how I do it by myself, so i'm not really typical. Most guys my size would have a job in town and hire more help, but I've found that if i'm willing to put in the hours and carefully control my costs I can make it work. A more typical operation would be a father & son or a couple brothers farming 2500 acres. Not at all uncommon for 10,000 acre+ operations with dozens of employees. I would say 1000-1500 acres per family is kind of the number. That is is pretty specific to this area; corn & bean operations. Different crops create very different operations. Western wheat belt operations are probably 5-10x the acres per operation, and things get different fast if you go south or east as well.
 
I was driving by some corn fields this morning (not unusual for Central IL) and saw 80 acres of farmland for sale. That got me thinking. How many acres does one need to be a solvent farmer (corn and beans)? Hundreds of acres? Thousands? I have no idea.

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Many farmers rent all their land.

The ROI in farming is on the operating capital.
 
Ah...the fastest way to a million in farming...start with two million. ;)
That doesn't answer the question though. Making payments obviously has an effect on solvency, but what is the difference when it is paid for whether bought or inherited? Or are there 0 solvent farms in the country?
 
Finally a question i can answer! (sort of)

Like most things in life, the answer is complicated. I farm 1200 acres, essentially all rented. Basically no hired labor, although I do get a little help during harvest. I make a decent living...obviously enough to afford to fly little piston airplanes and raise my family and put a little away for the future, but let's just say I don't see myself ever shopping for a TBM. A lot of my neighbors wonder how I do it by myself, so i'm not really typical. Most guys my size would have a job in town and hire more help, but I've found that if i'm willing to put in the hours and carefully control my costs I can make it work. A more typical operation would be a father & son or a couple brothers farming 2500 acres. Not at all uncommon for 10,000 acre+ operations with dozens of employees. I would say 1000-1500 acres per family is kind of the number. That is is pretty specific to this area; corn & bean operations. Different crops create very different operations. Western wheat belt operations are probably 5-10x the acres per operation, and things get different fast if you go south or east as well.
Thanks for the info. Any livestock or all crop?
 
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Many farmers rent all their land.

The ROI in farming is on the operating capital.

The land return and the operator return has historically been about the same...40 years ago almost all farms were operated under a 50/50 agreement...landowner provides the land and pays for half the inputs (seed, fertilizer, etc), farmer provides the labor and machinery, and they split the crop. As landowners got further removed from the farm, cash rents became more common. Of course as machinery got bigger, some operators found they could pay higher rents and survive on a smaller margin over more acres. Some are good at finding that fine line, others go bankrupt. All of my landlords could probably get more rent, but like any business, some people prefer to deal with a local guy who does the work and takes care of things like he owns them himself.

All of this to say that if you own the land outright, you need about half as much to make the same profit, although that ignores the huge amount of capital required to make that purchase. The number of people who can purchase 750 acres of prime farmland and still want to do the work to operate it is vanishingly small. Quality central Illinois farmland sells for around $10,000/acre. The one field I own (by which I mean have a huge mortgage on) I expect to return about $250/acre this year, which doesn't even pay the interest on the note. That said, historically the return plus the appreciation has been at least as good as the SP500, and better if you can farm it yourself. The 'occupancy rate' is 100%, and it's not to hard to borrow money on it at a low rate.

You have to have a sharp pencil (good spreadsheets) and be comfortable with debt. My operating line is over $300,000 right now; thankfully it's down to around 3%. Then there's the mortgages, and the note on the combine.....
 
The land return and the operator return has historically been about the same...40 years ago almost all farms were operated under a 50/50 agreement...landowner provides the land and pays for half the inputs (seed, fertilizer, etc), farmer provides the labor and machinery, and they split the crop. As landowners got further removed from the farm, cash rents became more common. Of course as machinery got bigger, some operators found they could pay higher rents and survive on a smaller margin over more acres. Some are good at finding that fine line, others go bankrupt. All of my landlords could probably get more rent, but like any business, some people prefer to deal with a local guy who does the work and takes care of things like he owns them himself.

All of this to say that if you own the land outright, you need about half as much to make the same profit, although that ignores the huge amount of capital required to make that purchase. The number of people who can purchase 750 acres of prime farmland and still want to do the work to operate it is vanishingly small. Quality central Illinois farmland sells for around $10,000/acre. The one field I own (by which I mean have a huge mortgage on) I expect to return about $250/acre this year, which doesn't even pay the interest on the note. That said, historically the return plus the appreciation has been at least as good as the SP500, and better if you can farm it yourself. The 'occupancy rate' is 100%, and it's not to hard to borrow money on it at a low rate.

You have to have a sharp pencil (good spreadsheets) and be comfortable with debt. My operating line is over $300,000 right now; thankfully it's down to around 3%. Then there's the mortgages, and the note on the combine.....

Owning the land is a great investment if you:
- inherited it from aunt Hilda
- bought it at a tax auction in the 80s.

When I looked into buying land to rent it out to operators, it simply didn't pencil out after a mortgage for part of the purchase was involved. You are basically buying it on speculation that land prices will go up. At the time I looked, the ethanol incentives were expiring which didn't seem the right time to buy.
 
Owning the land is a great investment if you:
- inherited it from aunt Hilda
- bought it at a tax auction in the 80s.

When I looked into buying land to rent it out to operators, it simply didn't pencil out after a mortgage for part of the purchase was involved. You are basically buying it on speculation that land prices will go up. At the time I looked, the ethanol incentives were expiring which didn't seem the right time to buy.
I would consider it a fairly stable investment, but if I had enough money to invest in farmland to retire on cash rent, I’d be quite comfortable retiring in the stock market.
 
Owning the land is a great investment if you:
- inherited it from aunt Hilda
- bought it at a tax auction in the 80s.

When I looked into buying land to rent it out to operators, it simply didn't pencil out after a mortgage for part of the purchase was involved. You are basically buying it on speculation that land prices will go up. At the time I looked, the ethanol incentives were expiring which didn't seem the right time to buy.
I would add:
- plan to farm it yourself or
- have a bunch of cash laying around

I did an analysis a couple years ago and figured that over any 20 year time horizon quality farmland beat stocks, even if you bought during the late 70s and were upside down for 15 years. Considering the fact that grain prices have been cut in half in the last couple years with almost no effect on land price, and the government is adding to the money supply like it's going out of style..... it might not be a bad time. If I wasn't actively involved though, I'd probably just stick my money in the SP and not look back.
 
Nothing to add, other than that I've lived in or near farm country for most of my adult life and even lived on and helped out at a dairy farm for a few months when in college, but never really talked to any of my farming neighbors about the business aspect of the life. This is fascinating. Thanks, @Jim K , for the insight!
 
I would consider it a fairly stable investment, but if I had enough money to invest in farmland to retire on cash rent, I’d be quite comfortable retiring in the stock market.

I knew a few folks who owned land that they got into through either inheritance or some 1031 exchanges for other business properties. A nice steady cash-flow for retirement as there is always an operator looking for land. Its not a hands-off investment. Even if you are not in a 50/50 joint venture, you still need to know your way around a farm to make sure your land is treated right. Plenty tales of woe where people dumped a lot of wealth into land without understanding everything the life as a landlord brings with it.

The money in farming is on the operations side. If you know what you are doing, understand the somewhat unusual math behind it, are a little bit lucky and work hard, you can make a good living.
 
Fascinating, I've always wondered about the modern farming business model and how many family farms still survive.

What about the smaller truck farms? They have nowhere near that kind of acreage, lots of them on eastern Long Island (NY).
 
Fascinating, I've always wondered about the modern farming business model and how many family farms still survive.

The 'family farm' that owns most of the land that they plant crops on is not all that common. Many farms own some land but rent most of their acreage from non-farming owners. Those owners are either retired from farming, have a job in town, inherited the land or are simply investors. So while many farms are family-corporations in the sense that not only ownership is within the family but also most of the labor is provided by family members, they are good size businesses by the amount of capital investment and operating capital required. The numbers involved in planting 2000 acres, fertilizing, spraying and harvesting are impressive. The good news is that there is a well organized agricultural lending system and most farms have lines of credit to cover input cost.
If everything goes well,
-there is no drought,
-no flood,
-the contracts are favorable,
-weather in Brazil is bad
....and congress doesn't eff up, the payback on operating capital is very attractive.

If just just one of these things goes south, you may have year of 'bring money to work day'.

What about the smaller truck farms? They have nowhere near that kind of acreage, lots of them on eastern Long Island (NY).

Many small farms are more of a hobby. The farm may 'pay' a couple of $1000 per year, but the owner derives most of his income from a day-job in town.
 
I would define a true family farm as an immediate family working together. Usually the ones that actually put "family farms" in the name are hiding behind the words and operating 10s of thousands of acres using Mexican h1b workers. The family that owns it generally only sees the tractors through the office window. If you're interested, here's a short article on the crash of "Illinois Family Farms" https://www.agweb.com/article/high-profile_crash_of_a_titan

I suspect I'll be the last generation of my family to farm, but my dad thought that too, and Im still hanging in there. We'll see.
 
I was driving by some corn fields this morning (not unusual for Central IL) and saw 80 acres of farmland for sale. That got me thinking. How many acres does one need to be a solvent farmer (corn and beans)? Hundreds of acres? Thousands? I have no idea.
Buy it, they are not making anymore.
farmers are always looking a place to plant.
 
...and operating 10s of thousands of acres using Mexican h1b workers.

You know more about agri-business than I do, but I'm surprised at the visa classification you mentioned. I thought H-1B was more for tech workers. H-2A seems more suitable for farming.
 
I wonder how long it requires to plant 80 Ac. with todays equipment? can a farmer get it the equipment around in one pass?
 
You know more about agri-business than I do, but I'm surprised at the visa classification you mentioned. I thought H-1B was more for tech workers. H-2A seems more suitable for farming.
You are probably correct.
I wonder how long it requires to plant 80 Ac. with todays equipment? can a farmer get it the equipment around in one pass?
I have a 16 row planter, which covers 40 ft in a pass. The skill of being able to clear obstacles 20 ft away has come in quite handy in flying lol. Anyway I cover 25-30 acres/hr with that machine. 24 row/60ft planters are quite common nowadays, as well as high speed planters that can run half again faster than I can. Some of the bigger operations have 32 row planters that probably could plant 80 acres in an hour if there isn't a lot of turning.
 
Finally a question i can answer! (sort of)

Like most things in life, the answer is complicated. I farm 1200 acres, essentially all rented. Basically no hired labor, although I do get a little help during harvest. I make a decent living...obviously enough to afford to fly little piston airplanes and raise my family and put a little away for the future, but let's just say I don't see myself ever shopping for a TBM. A lot of my neighbors wonder how I do it by myself, so i'm not really typical. Most guys my size would have a job in town and hire more help, but I've found that if i'm willing to put in the hours and carefully control my costs I can make it work. A more typical operation would be a father & son or a couple brothers farming 2500 acres. Not at all uncommon for 10,000 acre+ operations with dozens of employees. I would say 1000-1500 acres per family is kind of the number. That is is pretty specific to this area; corn & bean operations. Different crops create very different operations. Western wheat belt operations are probably 5-10x the acres per operation, and things get different fast if you go south or east as well.
And there's the catch. It's not the number of acres, it is the amount of work you are willing to put in.
 
I grew up on a dairy farm in PA. Grandpa grew corn, oats and of course, hay for the cows and milked the cows twice a day. All the labor came from family. Not enough money in milk to keep it going. It was 163 acres and by the time I was in college, my uncle was running beef on the land and not long after that it was sold. Most of the acres are rocky slopes good for grazing but not planting. I'm not sure what's going on there now.
 
Many small farms are more of a hobby. The farm may 'pay' a couple of $1000 per year, but the owner derives most of his income from a day-job in town.

I’ve seen a lot of this over the years, people who just do it on a smaller amount of acres for fun. Some good friends of mine recently bought 70 acres and are figuring out what they want to do with it. Currently a farmer is planting some crop there, but they’re thinking they may switch to livestock of some sort.
 
Ill echo what Jim K and the others have said....you make money farming on other peoples land. Around me in SW MI a few families do a large amount of the corn/bean planting.
These families have the big farming equipment and other infrastructure (trucks, dryer, storage ,etc). There are still a few small dairy's and hog guys around who plant some/most of their feed but that is getting to be less common.

My uncle did a smaller version of the rented land thing making hay for many years. He would make hay on about 6-7 fields for 50-60% of the hay, in total he would make 6-10,000 bales a year. As a second job since he worked "in town". A lot of work to haul square bales for the horse people though, why he stopped that operation.

I dont know about your area but when i as looking at houses, some that had 20-40 acres on them I looked at...the rent from the big farmers was laughably small. It would have hardly made a dent in the mortgage.
 
If you actually intend to row crop yourself I'd estimate you need enough cropland that farming it and splitting your labor between a regular full-time non-farming day job and a the farm is incredibly stressful, that doesn't include equipment breaking down, market crashes, natural disasters, taxes, insurance, lawsuits etc.

Then there is even sabotage, there were a couple reports of *******s booby trapping crops causing thousand dollars in damages to some combines.
 
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You have to have a sharp pencil (good spreadsheets) and be comfortable with debt. My operating line is over $300,000 right now; thankfully it's down to around 3%. Then there's the mortgages, and the note on the combine.....

My dad farmed about 1200 acres of cotton and various grains with my uncle up until I was in elementary school (I solo'ed the cotton picker when I was in 1st grade). All of his land was either cash rented or sharecropped. He said back when he was farming (late 70's through mid 80's) the interest on the operating note was 18% - so essentially every 6th row of crop was there just to pay the interest on the note. Pretty depressing...

It's a sometimes hard life and can be a risky endeavor depending on the markets, but man what a great way to live! I've had talks with current co-workers (I work in IT essentially) and when the discussion comes up about "What is your dream job?" some guys talk about professional golfer, fisherman, etc. My answer is always 'farmer' without hesitation.
 
I wonder how long it requires to plant 80 Ac. with todays equipment? can a farmer get it the equipment around in one pass?

It depends. Some folks are going to mega big equipment (40+ row planters) that plant at ~6 mph. Some folks, though, are trending toward using smaller planters (12-16 row) that are more maneuverable but can be operated at ~10mph. AGCO just came out with a new planter that meets both of those standards - it can go up to 48 rows and still plant at 10mph. I think Deere may have a competitor in that market, to.

80 acres is pretty much a guaranteed 'before lunch' sized job these days, though.
 
I used to work for a farmer many years ago, I think he had around 10,000 acres. At the time, He had a beautiful, 15 years younger EX-wife that he had to put up in a beach condo and a Mercedes, along with a hefty alimony. He had a beautiful 25 years younger current wife that he had to put up in his beach house about a 1/4 mile from the ex-wife, I believe she was partial to BMW's. I'm quite certain he had a plane also, it may have even been a jet.

I never saw the man in anything but dirty coveralls and a Ford pickup with 400k on the odometer. The man would change the tires on our trucks himself if his on-staff mechanic was moving too slowly.

He was half deaf and would only remember your name if you worked for him for years or broke something that cost a lot of money. Can you guess which of those two categories I fit in? :D
 
I'm 82 and still flying a Luscombe 8E...nutz--or what? Have to think about selling and getting a tricycle. Also, have hangar I own available at Montague Airport, CA. yeah, yeah, I know: another Californian joins the crowd.
 
I dont know about your area but when i as looking at houses, some that had 20-40 acres on them I looked at...the rent from the big farmers was laughably small. It would have hardly made a dent in the mortgage.

Depending on your state and locality, renting out that land may still make sense, even if the rent seems tiny. It may allow you to keep the entire parcel in a more favorable agricultural tax bracket rather than having it taxed as a 40 acre residential property.

Given the size of todays equipment, a 'small' parcel like 20 or 40acres may not be all that attractive to a larger operator. Unless they already farm an adjacent field, they have to be able to transport their equipment there. If you can plant 40 acres/hr, it makes a lot more sense to plant 160 acres (a 'quarter section') in a morning rather than hauling your planter to that little plot, planting for an hour, having to load it back up, haul to the next field etc.
 
Probably 98% or more of grain farmers are into all the government programs. Crop insurance with big subsidies (needed because the lenders want it) , payments based on corn and soybean acres, USDA help installing various practices such as cover crops, waterways, buffer strips, etc. It's all there. Go to EWG and find the name of a farmer nearby and you'll see what s/he's drawn in government money since about 1995. I used to, too, but haven't for about 10 years. I finally figured out I'd rather go it alone and I have no financial relationship with USDA at all. The farm has been in the family since 1893, but I'm the Last of the Mohicans. My kids are scattered all over the globe and won't farm when I'm dead.
I'd say 2 sections is about the minimum to get by (a section is one square mile, or 640 acres). You won't be sending your kid to Harvard on that, and your spouse maybe needs a job that takes care of the insurance. Health insurance on your own is probably $6000 for family per year and that is very basic.
What does machinery cost?
The new combine with corn head and soybean platform is probably around $700k. A new 16 row corn planter can be well over $200k. The tractors will be under $100k for the little ones (100hp or less) and go as high as you want - $250k or $350k is easily possible. Obviously, most farmers either buy big and roll it every one or two years to keep the maintenance costs down or buy used and spend a lot of time and money on maintenance.
Many farmers are pretty good operators but the key is marketing. 600 acres of corn and 600 acres of soybeans is going to mean marketing about $500k corn and $350k soybeans each year. That's where your profit is, and many farmers do a miserable job of marketing.
All the land grant universities have lots of info on all of this stuff. Some of it is even useful. :)
 
"Load back up and haul to the next field" ??

Around here, they just drive on the roads.
 
I grew up on a dairy farm in PA. Grandpa grew corn, oats and of course, hay for the cows and milked the cows twice a day. All the labor came from family. Not enough money in milk to keep it going. It was 163 acres and by the time I was in college, my uncle was running beef on the land and not long after that it was sold. Most of the acres are rocky slopes good for grazing but not planting. I'm not sure what's going on there now.

I work near the PA border and am currently looking for property over there. There are a few dairies in the Bedford valley for sale that would fit that description. Beautiful land but unless the dairy market changes fundamentally, I dont see them going back into operation.

I’ve seen a lot of this over the years, people who just do it on a smaller amount of acres for fun. Some good friends of mine recently bought 70 acres and are figuring out what they want to do with it. Currently a farmer is planting some crop there, but they’re thinking they may switch to livestock of some sort.

Owning a mini farm is a very romantic idea. Moo-cows to look at, the connection to the land etc. Its also a lot of work, and unless you have a brother or nephew you can press into service to take care of your cows when you want to go to the beach for a few days, it also ties you to that property for most of the year.

My uncle did a smaller version of the rented land thing making hay for many years. He would make hay on about 6-7 fields for 50-60% of the hay, in total he would make 6-10,000 bales a year. As a second job since he worked "in town". A lot of work to haul square bales for the horse people though, why he stopped that operation.

One of my neighbors in Fargo did that. He had a little bit of inherited land and rented additional acreage. He had a day job and lived in a regular subdivision house. The 'operation' was pretty much an equipment shed on an old farmstead 100 miles west where he kept his tractors and equipment. The hay business doesn't seem to require quite as much in terms of equipment relative to row-crops. His equipment was older but well maintained and he had a F450 pickup with a gooseneck to haul the bales to the 'horse people'. I think he made some money with it, but it seemed more something he did because he derived some sense of fulfilment , not based on a strict analysis of the numbers.
 
"Load back up and haul to the next field" ??

Around here, they just drive on the roads.

Fold would be a better term than load, but equipment moves slow, and road miles are very hard on tires, which are very expensive. Also, you're not getting anything done driving down the road. It is getting to the point where the big guys will turn their nose up at a 40, but there's still plenty of guys like me who'd love to have it.

My smallest field is 28 acres, but it's only 3 miles from home, and is constantly one of my best yielding pieces. Biggest is 174 acres, but it's weird shaped as the interstate chopped it up in the 70s. About half of it has mile long rows.... it's efficient, but hard to stay awake for 20 minutes while the auto steer drives you from one end to the other. Good time to post on POA and watch Bryan's videos.
 
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Owning a mini farm is a very romantic idea. Moo-cows to look at, the connection to the land etc. Its also a lot of work, and unless you have a brother or nephew you can press into service to take care of your cows when you want to go to the beach for a few days, it also ties you to that property for most of the year.

"lot of work" - yup, you got that right.

My BIL's family had a produce and dairy farm. They had a little sign in their house which said something like "Farming looks like fun... from the road"

My BIL and his brother and sister still have the farm. My BIL is the hardest working guy I know.

Anyone who thinks farming is easy work is dumber than a box of rocks.
 
"Load back up and haul to the next field" ??

Around here, they just drive on the roads.

Many of the larger tractors in eastern ND and western MN are tracked or have dually rears. Unless the fields were really close in, they would typically haul them around on a low-boy. Still a one-man operation.
One of the ways how rental operators gain efficiency over the years is to find parcels closer to their facility reducing the idle times required to move equipment. When the weather is right for planting, you want to plant 18hrs/day, when the weather is right for harvesting, you want to harvest, not drive around some gravel roads.
 
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