NA Dog challenging authority NA

[SkyHog]

So the time has come. Its gotta be my lack of experience, but my dog's biting has gotten to the point now where he will bite, and hard, and since I've decided to not strike him, he thinks he can get away with it.

Two times today, it has taken me holding him on the ground until he calmed down for him to stop challenging me. He freaks out insanely when it happens. He's snapping and scratching. After both times, he finally calms down and acts like he's submissive and will follow commands.

I hope this is normal, and if not, does anyone have any pointers to get him to stop being such a brat? He drew serious amounts of blood from me today and from a friend also. He's getting stronger, and I literally had to use my weight to keep him down until he calmed down.

 

[Brian Austin]

What you're doing sounds like an alpha roll in dog training terms. Sometimes it's necessary.

The key is to put him on his back, wrap your hand around his throat with a little firmness and growl right next to his ear.

Watch what a normal pack would do. The Alpha controls all in a pack, including when a dog eats, what activities, etc.. If the dog is biting you, he's becoming Alpha. The more fear he instills in you (real or subjective (ie you don't want a dog biting someone for liability reasons)), the less you become Alpha. The less you become Alpha, the more trouble the dog will end up being later in life.

This guy specializes in German Shepherds but his technique is non-breed specific. You might look at some of the articles and consider one of his DVDs: http://leerburg.com/. He can come across as a bit of an a-hole but he's blunt, honest and effective. I've got a number of his DVDs and it's worked wonders.

 

[jason]

If you get the National Geographic Channel, watch a show called Dog Whisperer. He is amazing. Using his techniques has worked wonders for many people that I know.

 

[wesleyj]

how old is this dog and what type is he, i went through the same thing with our rot, it took a while but i finally convinced hem that there was only one alpha in this house. hope you havent waited too long.

 

[Brian Austin]

how old is this dog and what type is he, i went through the same thing with our rot, it took a while but i finally convinced hem that there was only one alpha in this house. hope you havent waited too long.

After some personal experience, I'm convinced that the age of the dog is irrelevant with the final outcome. I lived with a girlfriend who's GSD had the run of the house and knew it. Within a month, I could set a plate of food on the floor and the dog wouldn't move toward it unless I said "okay". I never laid a hand on the dog, either (I don't feel it's necessary in any situation I've been but I'm not one to take a "don't hit a dog" stance).

Males are harder to dominate than females, though. And established Alphas are harder to dominate, too. The key is consistency and regular training. Even basic obedience training helps instill discipline and dominance. My dog thinks it's a game during the entire training period so it's not really "work" in a sense to the dog.

Some other things to put yourself in dominance 'mode' around the house:

1. Take the food away during mealtime. Reach down, while he's eating and take the bowl for a few minutes. If he growls, grab his throat or shoulders (like momma would have done) and growl back.

2. While he's eating, put your hand in the bowl and stir it up, like you're participating in the meal. This is especially useful for kids to establish pack authority (ie the kids outrank the dog). Don't get kids involved until you've already become Alpha, however. If the dog doesn't recognize your authority, only YOU should be doing anything with the dog.

3. When the toys are out during the day, take them away during play. Give them back one at a time. Again, establishing "I give you the fun time when I desire" dominance.

4. Use basic obedience as part of a daily task. My dog sits and waits at the door until I open it...then waits to be released. I got tired of her barging through the slider and taking out my screens. It's just how things are done now. When giving a treat, insist on a certain command. If the dog breaks before the release or the treat, don't give the treat and try it again.

Dogs are fairly smart once they figure out what the owner wants. My dog has picked up "wants" from me without my telling her or training her. If I leave a room and I want her to stay in there, I'll just tell her to stay in the room while I walk out. Five minutes later, I'll come back to find her at the door...but still inside. I never taught her that.

 

[woodstock]

I want to see you guys growling!

 

[ausrere]

So the time has come. Its gotta be my lack of experience, but my dog's biting has gotten to the point now where he will bite, and hard, and since I've decided to not strike him, he thinks he can get away with it.

Is this something that happens during a play session involving roughhousing and wrestling, or does he start this biting out of the blue? If its happening during roughhousing, then stop that type of play. Either way it sounds like he's challenging you for the alpha role and what Brian posted is excellent advice. I'd add that some little things you do also matter when trying to establish who's the alpha:

Never let him walk in front of you on leash, always at your side.
Never let him walk through a door before you do.
When you have left the house or the room, even for a minute and come back in the room, ignore him for a few minutes.
Never let him greet newcomers first. The alpha always greets newcomers first.
If the dog is laying in your path, NEVER step over him. Make him move. Everyone moves for the alpha of a pack, even if you could step over him with no problem.
Dogs should not be allowed on your furniture, the leader of the pack always gets the most comfortable spot. Dogs lay on the floor.

And last but not least...if he continues to challenge you for the alpha role..get thee to a professsional trainer before it develops into a serious problem.

 

[Steve]

What would Bob Barker do?

 

[Brian Austin]

Never let him walk in front of you on leash, always at your side.
Never let him walk through a door before you do.
When you have left the house or the room, even for a minute and come back in the room, ignore him for a few minutes.
Never let him greet newcomers first. The alpha always greets newcomers first.
If the dog is laying in your path, NEVER step over him. Make him move. Everyone moves for the alpha of a pack, even if you could step over him with no problem.
Dogs should not be allowed on your furniture, the leader of the pack always gets the most comfortable spot. Dogs lay on the floor.

And last but not least...if he continues to challenge you for the alpha role..get thee to a professsional trainer before it develops into a serious problem.

Great advice!

As much as we want dogs to be a "part of the family", they live by their own instinctive rules. Once established, it's amazing how fast they adapt to the role and take as much of the "leash" as they're allowed.

I regularly take my dog to my company's offices when we travel with the 5th wheel (hotels are difficult to deal with when you have a larger dog). I constantly get compliments on how well behaved she is and how well she interacts with others. Other than some basic obedience and tracking exercises, everything I've done has been based on pack mentality and my role as Alpha. Half of what she does well in others' eyes I've never taught her. She KNOWS her role and accepts it while giving it her best effort.

After a visit to our Las Vegas office, one of the other employees hired a trainer to come to their house and show her how to handle her problem Chow. Within two months of basic stuff like I mentioned and Lisa added to here, the dog was an entirely different dog. No more destruction in the house. No more pulling on the leash during walks. No more running away. Instant recall (my own dog will break off from a rabbit chase and sprint back to me with one call).

It really doesn't take much other than an attitude change.

 

[James_Dean]

This has worked great for my dog. You can set the level of "stimulation" to just cause discomfort, not pain.


http://www.petsmart.com/global/prod...1153073838919&itemNo=11&In=Dog&N=2032900&Ne=2


I've found that level 4 is adequate for my 65 lb lab. No yelp, she just stops what she was doing.

BTW, do not let the remote fall into the hands of any child.


James Dean

 

[GMascelli]

Having raised and trained Dobe's, Rotti's and now an Italian Mastiff I have learned one thing and that is always...ALWAYS be consistent! No bite means NO BITE...even when everyone thinks its hoot because he is pulling on your socks as in a tug of war simulation.

Always go through any door first, after all you are the alpha food provider you make the rules.

Always up or down the stairs first, make them stay on a sit or down and wait......you’re the alpha you go first....ALWAYS.

Always make cute lil' puppy get up and move out of your way, in the door way, in you path to your favorite chair, on the way to the bathroom, reaching for the fridge door for that cold one......where ever you must go, pup must give way.

Don't forget, no cute puppy in bed. If they sleep with you they think of you as equals.........they are not. I have yet to see a dog open a can of dog food on his/her own.

Some of theses simple things may sound dumb or even hard on a new pup but I have taken my dogs to the finest places for shows and they don't need a leash, they don’t jump up, and they don’t do the croch sniff. I have been complimented that my dogs are better behaved then some peoples kids.........not that that matters, but why have a dog if you can't take him/her with you everywhere they are permitted.


Ok, i have rambled on waaaayyyyy to long.

 

[Brian Austin]

This has worked great for my dog. You can set the level of "stimulation" to just cause discomfort, not pain.

http://www.petsmart.com/global/prod...1153073838919&itemNo=11&In=Dog&N=2032900&Ne=2

I've found that level 4 is adequate for my 65 lb lab. No yelp, she just stops what she was doing.

BTW, do not let the remote fall into the hands of any child.

James Dean

I've got one of these, too. We had major issues with the cat fascination from the dog.

Our 80 lb GSD requires a 7 to get noticed. Same response. A bit of a jump and instantly stops doing whatever it is she's doing. Our's has a audio beep option on it, which is nice as a warning. One beep, no response, zap. I haven't even put it on her for six months or so. My wife used to put it on her when she was by herself (dog thought she was equals with my wife and would push it when I wasn't there) but not bother turning it on. Instant submission.

And those of you screaming "animal cruelty", my (at the time) 8 year old nephew was laughing at how much the thing tickled at a 9. I tried it myself. It's basically a static shock like you'd get off of wool carpet.

 

[jesse]

And those of you screaming "animal cruelty", my (at the time) 8 year old nephew was laughing at how much the thing tickled at a 9. I tried it myself. It's basically a static shock like you'd get off of wool carpet.

I don't know about that...Maybe yours isn't as strong... I've tried one in the past and it was ..quite a shock. Not something I would want around my neck..

I think that if you do purchase one of these...Try it on yourself first. You'll understand what it actually feels like and better understand how to use it.

 

[SkyHog]

Thank you all for the advice. I let him sleep in my bed for the first time the night before he went nutty on me, so maybe that's what is going on.

I do let him walk in front of me on a leash and I'll stop that. I also never thought about stepping over him as being a sign of weakness.

He is not allowed on the couch, but I have a separate chair he's allowed on, is that OK?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

If you get the National Geographic Channel, watch a show called Dog Whisperer. He is amazing. Using his techniques has worked wonders for many people that I know.

It works on people too?

 

[etsisk]

Nick,
You've gotten some good info - and if she has a minute to spare later, I'll see if my dog-trainer wife can make some suggestions.

A couple of things -
alpha rolling- alpha rolling can get you into a situation you don't want to be in, sometimes. Especially if the dog is large and thinks he's alpha - he might well be willing to fight to defend what he perceives as his place. You can establish and maintain dominance by a number of techniques:
1. physical positioning - make him move (you just move into his space until he moves);
2. food - don't give him his food all at once in a bowl - make him work for every bit of it, and feed him from your hand. YOU have control of the resources.
3. sleeping spaces - sleeping spaces are VERY important in a dog's world. Our dogs NEVER get to be on the bed. Ever. The one time that we let that happen, we had an immediate dog fight, instigated by the social climber that was on the bed. They stay off.
4. in conjunction with the food - lot's of training. Sits, downs, stays, heels...
5. Make the rules clear and irrefutable - he bites, there's a NO, and all the playing stops and you IGNORE him. Turn your back on him. Make it clear. It happens every single time.

Good luck with it - check out some of the Purely Positive Training information. It works (if some folks think it doesn't, tell 'em to go to Sea World and ask what would happen if they punished a dolphin!).

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

This has worked great for my dog. You can set the level of "stimulation" to just cause discomfort, not pain.


http://www.petsmart.com/global/prod...1153073838919&itemNo=11&In=Dog&N=2032900&Ne=2


I've found that level 4 is adequate for my 65 lb lab. No yelp, she just stops what she was doing.

BTW, do not let the remote fall into the hands of any child.


James Dean

I'm glad my flight instructor did not think of this gizzmo. Instead of "Rudder, more rudder, trim, more trim ,watch your altitude, where are you going? watch your heading" All in one breath. He could have just zapped me. Knowing him like I do,he would too!
On the other hand, It might have shortened my training time !!

 

[jason]

If you get the National Geographic Channel, watch a show called Dog Whisperer. He is amazing. Using his techniques has worked wonders for many people that I know.

It works on people too?

Ok, Ok, I deserved that.

The funny thing is that he rehabilitates the dog and trains the owners. Too many people want to humanize dogs.

 

[Brian Austin]

alpha rolling- alpha rolling can get you into a situation you don't want to be in, sometimes. Especially if the dog is large and thinks he's alpha - he might well be willing to fight to defend what he perceives as his place.

Alpha rolling is not for the timid with aggressive dogs. And you should be prepared for a fight, especially for the first few times. I started early, when she was 11 weeks old and trying to assert her dominance in the new household. While playing, she nipped me, drawing blood. I immediately rolled her and growled. Immediate submission.

I haven't had to do it for over a year now. She's about two and a half and we're well established on the how pack rank placement now.

While the other techniques you (and others) listed work well, alpha rolling is immediate, aggressive and rather primal. It puts you on the dog's level in a situation that the dog recognizes instinctively. If you're looking for quick effects to stop something that cannot continue, I think it's more effective and the dog recognizes what just happened immediately instead of trying to figure out the behavior changes.

Good luck with it - check out some of the Purely Positive Training information. It works (if some folks think it doesn't, tell 'em to go to Sea World and ask what would happen if they punished a dolphin!).

Good book by Sheila Booth. Leerburg Kennels endorses it and sells it on their site. I've read it and it works well for any type of training. My dog's ball drive is so high, I don't even bother getting treats out.

The other thing: everyone trains slightly different and everyone is right...for themselves (except me, who is more right than anyone else...just ask me ). You'll hear dozens of responses for a simple question; all different; all effective for SOMEONE. This isn't a hard science. There is more than one way to do it.

 

[James_Dean]

I don't know about that...Maybe yours isn't as strong... I've tried one in the past and it was ..quite a shock. Not something I would want around my neck..

I think that if you do purchase one of these...Try it on yourself first. You'll understand what it actually feels like and better understand how to use it.

Jesse,

Different species, different tolerences. Don't anthropomorphize, they are animals and you need to deal with them on their level.


James Dean

 

[gkainz]

Quick question along these lines (hope nobody squawks HiJack - consider it a "deviation for weather") ... regarding the dog walking ahead on a lease. My Shepherd/Akita strains at the leash and always wants to check out absolutely everything she can get her nose close to. Other than that, she exhibits no other traits of dominance with me. Ideas?

 

[jason]

Quick question along these lines (hope nobody squawks HiJack - consider it a "deviation for weather") ... regarding the dog walking ahead on a lease. My Shepherd/Akita strains at the leash and always wants to check out absolutely everything she can get her nose close to. Other than that, she exhibits no other traits of dominance with me. Ideas?

It all starts when you leave the house. Seriously. Does she walk out the door first? Don't take a single step unless it's clear to her that it is your idea. Don't let her sniff something unless you've given her permission. If she tries to look at another dog, correct her. If she's walking in front of you, she's the leader.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record but this is a heavily covered topic on the show that I was referring to. Check it out.

 

[ausrere]

Quick question along these lines (hope nobody squawks HiJack - consider it a "deviation for weather") ... regarding the dog walking ahead on a lease. My Shepherd/Akita strains at the leash and always wants to check out absolutely everything she can get her nose close to. Other than that, she exhibits no other traits of dominance with me. Ideas?

You have to correct her. Different trainers will tell you different techniques. I use a slip collar but I don't walk them with it down around the base of the neck like most people. It's high, just behind the ears. Doesn't take as much correction that way, and you have much better control of the head..where the head goes, the rest of the dog goes. You might also try one of those gentle leader type harnesses. It's a harness that goes on the dogs muzzle. The leash snaps on to it so that you are controling the head much better than standard collars.

 

[Brian Austin]

You have to correct her. Different trainers will tell you different techniques. I use a slip collar but I don't walk them with it down around the base of the neck like most people. It's high, just behind the ears. Doesn't take as much correction that way, and you have much better control of the head..where the head goes, the rest of the dog goes.

It's also less likely to damage the throat when it's up higher. People who are using them low aren't doing it correctly. I talked to my vet about it (who didn't like it but understands the need or desire).

 

[etsisk]

it's my understanding that prong collars (as ugly as they are) are actually gentler for the dog than a choke collar, which can indeed do some serious damage to their throats.

I LOVE our gentle leaders - the things are just amazing. The only downside is explaining, over and over again, "no, it isn't a muzzle - they're friendly..."