My Suggestion.

poadeleted21

poadeleted21

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Messages
12,332
This is ONLY my suggestion, money back guarantee.

For the life of me, I cannot understand the "no comment on price" policy. for the classifieds. This seems to be a "discussion" forum, yet discussion is discouraged when someone posts a plane for sale unless it's glowing praise in an attempt to unload an overpriced beater off on an unsuspecting n00b. I've shopped for a couple of planes in my day, and if anyone needs protecting, it aint the sellers. We can take a dump all over Signature's fuel prices but pointing out that "cuz I got that in it" isn't a valid defense for an obscene asking price gets met with the full wrath of the MC.

My $.02 is that it's a discussion forum, if you didn't want to discuss it, don't post it. http://www.barnstormers.com http://www.controller.com http://www.trade-a-plane.com might be more suited for your needs.

I'd like to come to POA and say "This one looks like a winner". As in "This dude had the balls to put his plane and price up for scrutiny on POA and the peanut gallery likes it, where do I sign"?
 
Have to agree. But the folks who run the site want it that way, and since they do all the work and pony up all the funds, they get their way as far as I'm concerned.
 
Why would anybody think that sellers will price their planes differently just because a forum is involved? The 4 answers are always the same.

steingar said:
Have to agree. But the folks who run the site want it that way, and since they do all the work and pony up all the funds, they get their way as far as I'm concerned.
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wabower said:
Why would anybody think that sellers will price their planes differently just because a forum is involved? The 4 answers are always the same.
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Yabut at least on a site they might get some feedback as to whether their offering might be improved. I emphasize might.
 
I might suggest that you go back through the classifieds from a couple of years ago (before the policy was established) and refresh your memory on what it was like.

Then you might understand.
 
timwinters said:
I might suggest that you go back through the classifieds from a couple of years ago (before the policy was established) and refresh your memory on what it was like.

Then you might understand.
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:yeahthat:
Most stupid sounding rules are implemented because stupid people did ( or said) stupid things to cause them.
 
timwinters said:
I might suggest that you go back through the classifieds from a couple of years ago (before the policy was established) and refresh your memory on what it was like.

Then you might understand.
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You argue with the wrong bloke. I am quite satisfied with the current policy because it is what those who support the site want. If that isn't good enough, too bad.
 
timwinters said:
I might suggest that you go back through the classifieds from a couple of years ago (before the policy was established) and refresh your memory on what it was like.

Then you might understand.
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No skin off my back. I posted my plane for sale here not knowing the policy and other places that don't have the policy. If you're scared of what you might hear, don't post it. IMHO, a dialog about a plane and asking price would go a long way in my decision to pursue a plane or not. If you've got her priced 30% above Vref, lets talk about it. Now I just kind of giggle at all the whitewashed comments.. Sort of Like Airnav.
 
bartmc said:
No skin off my back. I posted my plane for sale here not knowing the policy and other places that don't have the policy. If you're scared of what you might hear, don't post it. IMHO, a dialog about a plane and asking price would go a long way in my decision to pursue a plane or not. If you've got her priced 30% above Vref, lets talk about it. Now I just kind of giggle at all the whitewashed comments.. Sort of Like Airnav.
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You can advertise 20% below Vref and still they will cry "too ****ing high!"
 
Because peoples perceived values have nothing to do with actual values or even VREF. Someone with no expertise, knowledge or experience can post confidently that a plane is way overpriced and torpedo the sellers chances to reach a potential buyer in the forum and possibly elsewhere, since this forum's contents get indexed by Google and other search engines. I saw some of the posts before the policy was implemented and I strongly agree with the moderators' policy to prohibit comments on pricing. There are plenty of resources for buyers to determine if a plane is priced right. Also, I would note, that some planes are fairly unique and it would be hard to arbitrarily assign a price and then should be whatever the buyer is willing to pay for it.
 
Are raw Vref numbers always indicative of FMV?

If the bargain element is truly in the ballpark, won't knowledgeable buyers be all over it?

If a plane is advertised on every possible (but cheap) sales site available and doesn't generate offers more than 50-60% of ask prices, what might that indicate?


Henning said:
You can advertise 20% below Vref and still they will cry "too ****ing high!"
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wabower said:
Are raw Vref numbers always indicative of FMV?

If the bargain element is truly in the ballpark, won't knowledgeable buyers be all over it?

If a plane is advertised on every possible (but cheap) sales site available and doesn't generate offers more than 50-60% of ask prices, what might that indicate?
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Aren't Vref and NAAA supposed to be the ones following the market and be the arbiters of FMV? Do knowledgeable buyers want to pay FMV? Are knowledgeable buyers in the market at all? Do they actually exist in GA considering the market is so minuscule? Whom besides Barron Thomas is a knowledgable buyer?
 
John221us said:
Because peoples perceived values have nothing to do with actual values or even VREF. Someone with no expertise, knowledge or experience can post confidently that a plane is way overpriced and torpedo the sellers chances to reach a potential buyer in the forum and possibly elsewhere, since this forum's contents get indexed by Google and other search engines. I saw some of the posts before the policy was implemented and I strongly agree with the moderators' policy to prohibit comments on pricing. There are plenty of resources for buyers to determine if a plane is priced right. Also, I would note, that some planes are fairly unique and it would be hard to arbitrarily assign a price and then should be whatever the buyer is willing to pay for it.
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Isn't that called having a discussion? If I post something for sale I couldn't care less what's posted. If its intelligent, I might adjust my price. Otherwise I'm armed with the most knowledge of what I'm selling and prepared to defend it. I might buy a plane at 30% over Vref, it's going to take a compelling argument and "that's what I got in her" isn't compelling enough.
 
Bart, what harm is it to you if a noob pays too much for an airplane? They can choose to do the research, just like the rest of us. If the gent can get $35k for his Cessna 150, more power to him. It appears much nicer than any 150 I've ever seen.

I think people should be allowed to comment if they feel the Classified poster has misrepresented the item, provided they can provide proof. Case in proof: the submarine mooney.

IMNSHO, People who comment on price are lazier than tire kickers. At least tire-kickers pick up the phone or send an email to waste the seller's time.
 
John221us said:
Because peoples perceived values have nothing to do with actual values or even VREF. Someone with no expertise, knowledge or experience can post confidently that a plane is way overpriced and torpedo the sellers chances to reach a potential buyer in the forum and possibly elsewhere, since this forum's contents get indexed by Google and other search engines. I saw some of the posts before the policy was implemented and I strongly agree with the moderators' policy to prohibit comments on pricing.
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But the policy only affects posts in the Classifieds forum on PoA. People routinely post comments on PoA about the values of aircraft advertised on other sales sites. Others routinely ask the collective wisdom of PoAers about perceived values of aircraft the poster is interested in. Any attempt to impose the Classifieds policy throughout PoA would gut the value of the site for a lot of posters.

However, I brought this issue up last year when the policy was first adopted and my conclusion was that it was entirely motivated by an attempt to enforce "civility" which was regarded of greater value than any negative consequences on "buyers" (a questionable concept when barter is involved):

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50819

Based on what I read then, I don't expect the policy to change.

There are plenty of resources for buyers to determine if a plane is priced right.
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I would think the the existence of those resources would mitigate any fear of comments undercutting a possible sale, making the policy redundant. In fact those resources would allow the seller to refute negative comments about alleged too-high asking prices.

Also, I would note, that some planes are fairly unique and it would be hard to arbitrarily assign a price and then should be whatever the buyer is willing to pay for it.
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I'm not sure how preventing comments on values changes things in such regards.
 
An appraisal of a specific airplane by an NAAA-certified appraiser would provide the basis for the value shown in the appraisal report. The other stuff is just guesstimates, as noted the disclaimers on both the electronic and print versions that the information is not suitable for appraisal purposes. How much more clearly can it be stated?

Are you looking for a different definition of FMV than the one currently in use that has been with us for centuries? If you haven't been watching, buyers have historically wanted low prices, sellers have wanted high prices. If/when they agree, a deal gets done. Call it whatever you want.

Deals are getting done. Many participants are enjoying record years. I'd guess some are very knowledgeable, some dumber than a rock. But as the realtors say, "they all sell at the right price."

What does a person need to know to meet your test of "a knowledgeable buyer?" Is it equally important to be able to define "a knowledgeable seller?"

Henning said:
Aren't Vref and NAAA supposed to be the ones following the market and be the arbiters of FMV? Do knowledgeable buyers want to pay FMV? Are knowledgeable buyers in the market at all? Do they actually exist in GA considering the market is so minuscule? Whom besides Barron Thomas is a knowledgable buyer?
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That's my point, in a market as small as GA, what are we using to define "knowledgeable"?
 
What has changed since the 70's to cause the question now? People in the business will say that buyers are more knowledgeable than ever due to the cast vast amount of information at their fingertips that has never available before. What else do you need?
wabower said:
An appraisal of a specific airplane by an NAAA-certified appraiser would provide the basis for the value shown in the appraisal report. The other stuff is just guesstimates, as noted the disclaimers on both the electronic and print versions that the information is not suitable for appraisal purposes. How much more clearly can it be stated?

Are you looking for a different definition of FMV than the one currently in use that has been with us for centuries? If you haven't been watching, buyers have historically wanted low prices, sellers have wanted high prices. If/when they agree, a deal gets done. Call it whatever you want.

Deals are getting done. Many participants are enjoying record years. I'd guess some are very knowledgeable, some dumber than a rock. But as the realtors say, "they all sell at the right price."

What does a person need to know to meet your test of "a knowledgeable buyer?" Is it equally important to be able to define "a knowledgeable seller?"
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If the buyer is happy with his airplane and what they paid for it ,it was the right price. Quite a few of the people who comment on the asking price have no idea of the true price of things.
 
frfly172 said:
If the buyer is happy with his airplane and what they paid for it ,it was the right price. Quite a few of the people who comment on the asking price have no idea of the true price of things.
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And quite a few have more of an idea of the current market than the seller. And would like to ask and potentially have an informative dialog with the seller on asking price. Seeing that would be very worthwhile for me to read as a potential buyer. If I'm selling something, feel free to comment on the price of it. I did put it on a discussion forum open to the public after all.
 
Brad Z said:
Bart, what harm is it to you if a noob pays too much for an airplane? They can choose to do the research, just like the rest of us. If the gent can get $35k for his Cessna 150, more power to him. It appears much nicer than any 150 I've ever seen.

I think people should be allowed to comment if they feel the Classified poster has misrepresented the item, provided they can provide proof. Case in proof: the submarine mooney.

IMNSHO, People who comment on price are lazier than tire kickers. At least tire-kickers pick up the phone or send an email to waste the seller's time.
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Other than a fellow aviator finding out about the dark side of aviation (If you think used car dealers are bad, try airplane sellers) and getting a sour taste in his mouth for the hobby, not much. On the flip side, what harm is it if we ask, "Where'd you come up with that number?" Especially if it's WAY over the Vref value and nothing exceptional noted in the ad. Or vice versa, "Why you sellin' it so cheap?"
 
I think there is value in the discussion taking place, assuming I was a buyer.


I was trying to sell a Ford Expedition that was my mom's. "Driven by a litttle old lady on Sunday" type of a car. Great shape, etc...

I posted on FaceBook the car, close to high book, but reasonable. The very first comment was from a guy who thinks he knows everything (watches a lot of Fox News and posts nonsense from there) that it was about $8000 too high.

Luckily, FaceBook allows you to delete comments on your posts, and it was deleted quickly. Ended up selling it for about what it was worth, as it was a dang clean car.

Maybe a delete function accessed by the OP in Classifieds?
 
JoseCuervo said:
I think there is value in the discussion taking place, assuming I was a buyer.


I was trying to sell a Ford Expedition that was my mom's. "Driven by a litttle old lady on Sunday" type of a car. Great shape, etc...

I posted on FaceBook the car, close to high book, but reasonable. The very first comment was from a guy who thinks he knows everything (watches a lot of Fox News and posts nonsense from there) that it was about $8000 too high.

Luckily, FaceBook allows you to delete comments on your posts, and it was deleted quickly. Ended up selling it for about what it was worth, as it was a dang clean car.

Maybe a delete function accessed by the OP in Classifieds?
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Luckily he wasn't one of those MSNBC watchers, he would have demanded you give it to him.
 
I don't see the harm if one idiot says "that's $8000 too high" and then the next 20 posts are by knowledgable forum regulars who say "You're an idiot, that's an awesome price!" If anything, the idiot has helped my marketing because I have a bushel of unsolicited testimonials for my asking price.

Brad says a potential buyer can "choose to do the research", but this policy severely limits a potential buyer's ability to do that. Nowhere else in the world is there such a diverse foundation of knowledge. If I see an ad on Controller, and post it here, within 24 hours I'll have several opinions from people with lots of time in the model, telling me what to watch out for, what to inspect, and how much I should pay. I can use their post history, or my personal experience interacting with them in past threads to determine if they know what they are talking about.

The current policy plays out in one of three ways:
  • Predatory seller posts a turd for a high price. We can't comment on it, and maybe someone is stupid uninformed enough to buy it. Predatory seller wins, forum member loses.
  • Uneducated seller posts a good plane, but at a high price. We can't comment on it. Ether he sells it to the same guy who bought the turd above (win/lose) or he never sells it and gets frustrated with the market/site/life/whatever (lose/lose)
  • Knowledgable seller posts a good plane, at a good price. He'll probably sell it, but we can't comment on the price, so it might take longer than necessary, or he might take a lower offer than necessary (???/???)

Basically, the current system serves nobody, except predatory sellers. Honest sellers should welcome feedback, and everyone can tell the difference between:

"ZOMG, that's wAy too high, like $8000 t00 much! lulz good luck lamer!"

and

"Bob, I think you've got this priced about $8000 too high. I realize the avionics are only 2 months old, but you've got to realize that you can't expect buyers to finance the full cost of your recent avionics purchases. At best you can expect to get 60% of the cost back, but 50% is much more common."

TLDR; Current policy hurts everyone except predators. Forum members possess at least average intellect and can tell price-trolls from constructive feedback.
 
Maybe we could just have an art shop make one great big "Awesome plane, Dude!" with the name of everybody who's currently logged into the site attached. :p
 
wabower said:
Maybe we could just have an art shop make one great big "Awesome plane, Dude!" with the name of everybody who's currently logged into the site attached. :p
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attachment.php
 
After many years of people commenting on price and people consistently crossing the line creating drama we then had to sort out we finally decided to eliminate the entire problem. The classifieds have been quite peaceful since so I don't imagine we will be changing things back to how they were.
 
jesse said:
After many years of people commenting on price and people consistently crossing the line creating drama we then had to sort out we finally decided to eliminate the entire problem. The classifieds have been quite peaceful since so I don't imagine we will be changing things back to how they were.
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How many sellers complained?
 
Jim Logajan said:
How many sellers complained?
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Do you think we keep a spreadsheet with that exact data? Hell if I know. There was one more complaint than we were willing to tolerate. That's all that matters.
 
jesse said:
Do you think we keep a spreadsheet with that exact data? Hell if I know. There was one more complaint than we were willing to tolerate. That's all that matters.
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About four minutes after I asked, I realized the answer wouldn't be of any value - so I came back to delete the post - too late. Sorry. Answer is perfectly understandable.

You're probably not interested in "fine tuning" or adjusting the policy, but I'll throw the following policy idea out anyway just to remove it from my mental queue:
As stated in the Rules of Conduct, if the original poster at any time posts that comments on the value of the goods offered are not welcome, you should no longer post such comments about that thread on PoA - any such posts may be removed. Comments made prior to the seller's request are not subject to the "not welcome" prohibition.
​
The idea of my suggested change is simply to place the onus of following the rules equally on the seller, any prospects, and the peanut gallery. The current rule places no onus on the seller, which I think kinda sucks. Further, hit-and-run sellers who don't carefully read the policy and place an ad on PoA and then never return will get what they deserve. Sellers who are active PoAers who accidentally forget to request suppression of value comments have the option of later correcting their mistake. Sellers have to "pay" in the minor sense that they have to explicitly request protection of their ad from value judgements. I think that is fairer than having prospects and the peanut gallery "pay" that cost.

I don't think this policy change places any new demands on the moderators since they still have to deal with violations the same way in either policy.

Now that is out of my mental queue I can finish sanding the balsa wood ribs I cut out a bit ago.
 
Actually, if it was my forum, I'd add one other qualifier to the classifieds....

You can't post in the classifieds until you have 50 (or whatever number) posts.

This would be similar to the trial period required before entering the spin zone.

People whose first post is a blatant attempt to try to sell me something are annoying...as they haven't established themselves as part of the community...rather they just see us as a way to make a buck.

At least that's the way it comes across to me.
 
Tim that was something that I suggested at one time however when you think about it the classifies is sort of like the bulletin board on the FBO wall. I'd prefer that folks that use that forum participate in the board but when it comes down to it even if they don't, they may be selling something of value that someone who frequents the board can use.
 
AdamZ said:
Tim that was something that I suggested at one time however when you think about it the classifies is sort of like the bulletin board on the FBO wall. I'd prefer that folks that use that forum participate in the board but when it comes down to it even if they don't, they may be selling something of value that someone who frequents the board can use.
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Yeah, I agree with that, as long as whatever it is can be beneficial to someone on the board, let whomever put it on.
 
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