My great adventure, on an impulse.

[Clark1961]

Let me try to be clear, I did not deliberately fly into IFR conditions.

John, my first reaction was similar to other folks here about a VFR only pilot flying in what may have been IMC for about 20 minutes. Namely I thought you did good in handling the aircraft but maybe poorly in ADM.

After thinking a bit, I realize that I did something similar on the trip back from picking up the (now Franken, then) turbo Dakota. The aircraft was picked up in Tennesee and we left around noon on the 1,000 mile flight to Denver. Along the way we (CFI along since I was a low time PP) discovered a 1 qt/hr oil leak and observed high oil temperatures. We pressed on. Along the way the sun set as it tends to do most evenings so there we were flying in the dark, stopping to add oil every couple hours and getting just a bit fatigued.

Eastern Colorado tends to be rather dark at night, particularly so with no moon. So there we were, blowing oil and flying into a black hole. Or more precisely, there I was, driving into a black hole and worried about the engine. I was on instruments for at least half an hour before the glow of Denver showed on the horizon. The whole time the CFI was periodically re-centering the CDIs and then turning on a flashlight to check the triangulated position on the sectional. So not only was I a novice PP in a new-to-him aircraft maintaining attitude on insturments, but my night vision was shot.

I won't say we were lucky to complete the trip since I didn't see an immediate danger. It was definitely an experience I don't really want to repeat.

 

[wabower]

Married men have a pretty good idea of what it might be like to get dead, since most have come close on more than one occasion.

Doubtful, unless a blatant disregard for regs and/or safety is what got you there in the first place.

But, I'm reminded of something Rick Durden said on a Pilotcast a few years ago: "You have to be alive to get in trouble." He said that we all know what it's like to get in trouble, and we know we don't like it, but we don't know what it's like to get dead, and thus some people choose poorly. Wise words.

 

[SkyHog]

The real risk is not IFR traffic, the real risk is other VFR traffic in the same situation. Even on VFR FF you'll get traffic advisories, it's just that with IFR, it's their job to provide you with separation.

Remember that ATC is only responsible for separation of IFR from other IFR traffic. There is no obligation for ATC to separate IFR from VFR or VFR from IFR traffic.

So even then....still not safe.

 

[Henning]

Obviously survival is paramount, and I am in no way condoning disregard of regs. My question is, is a pilot who is not instrument rated finds himself in a similar situation as this, would declaring an emergency prompt a visit from the FAA?

Not necessarily. Say it goes like this, and this happens; You get a briefing, calls for a beatiful VFR day all along your route of flight, so you take off and an hour into your 2.5 hr flight the clouds start building and filling in around you...everywhere.... "Yeah KC Center 234Y " " 234Y KC Center, Go Ahead" " Cessna 172/U 15 north XXX VOR 1 soul onboard. The skys are closing around me everywhere with cloud development as I speak and I am a VFR pilot, I may need some help here real soon." "Copy on your emergency, squawk 7200 (they gave me that one, one flip from VFR, that was thinking, minimum distraction). "Seventy two hundred" "34Y Radar contact are you currently VFR?" "Yes barely but its closing up." "Understood, do you have an autopilot".....

And he's going to help you out and give you everything he can to get you on the ground safely and he will give you a number to call if/upon successful completion. He'll talk to you and get your info and congratulate you on making it and most likely that is the last you will ever hear of it.

Why? Few reasons:

You got a briefing that showed conditions would be conducive to your VFR flight.

You called as soon as you knew you were getting in a bind.

You had the ability to make it.

There is nothing there to fault you on.

They look at every incident individually, they aren't meter maids. They know weather happens, you reacted appropriately and lived.

 

[Henning]

Remember that ATC is only responsible for separation of IFR from other IFR traffic. There is no obligation for ATC to separate IFR from VFR or VFR from IFR traffic.

So even then....still not safe.

While there is no "obligation" that does not mean when they are aware of a situation they will ignore it. If you're VFR FF traffic and you tell them "The smoke is getting pretty thick around here, visibility is a bit hard to determine" They are now aware of the situation and typically take greater levels of care. I've received greater than required service from ATC on more than one occasion.

 

[gprellwitz]

Obviously survival is paramount, and I am in no way condoning disregard of regs. My question is, is a pilot who is not instrument rated finds himself in a similar situation as this, would declaring an emergency prompt a visit from the FAA?

Generally the answer will be "No!" They want you safe on the ground. If you declare an emergency (or they declare one on your behalf, which they can and will do), it gives them a lot of latitude in what they can do to help you.

Remember that ATC is only responsible for separation of IFR from other IFR traffic. There is no obligation for ATC to separate IFR from VFR or VFR from IFR traffic.

So even then....still not safe.

But, if an emergency has been declared, they are going to separate you, and they will be paying attention to you. When you're up the proverbial creek without the paddle, having someone there whispering words of encouragement, ready to throw you the life preserver (or keep the other folks away from you) is not a bad thing!

From the AIM:

6-1-2. Emergency Condition- Request Assistance Immediately
a. An emergency can be either a distress or urgency condition as defined in the Pilot/Controller Glossary. Pilots do not hesitate to declare an emergency when they are faced with distress conditions such as fire, mechanical failure, or structural damage. However, some are reluctant to report an urgency condition when they encounter situations which may not be immediately perilous, but are potentially catastrophic. An aircraft is in at least an urgency condition the moment the pilot becomes doubtful about position, fuel endurance, weather, or any other condition that could adversely affect flight safety. This is the time to ask for help, not after the situation has developed into a distress condition.
b. Pilots who become apprehensive for their safety for any reason should request assistance immediately. Ready and willing help is available in the form of radio, radar, direction finding stations and other aircraft. Delay has caused accidents and cost lives. Safety is not a luxury! Take action!

(emphasis mine)

 

[AdamZ]

So I'm guessing you aren't instrument rated and weren't IFR correct? Were you on Flight Following? Because you don't really have to switch to flight watch to give a Pirep, I've never had ATC get ****ey about getting a pirep, and they call me for them every now and then.

If you are in actual IMC conditions and don't have at least proper visibility, you should be on an IFR flight plan with a code and everything to prevent a midair. With flight following you're always talking with the same people as when IFR, so when you run into something like this, you can make the pirep and let ATC know that you have a visibility issue (or whatever problem you run into) from smoke and they know to watch out for you and provide you help. For instance they can call one of the planes working the fire and get you a vector to nearest clear air. ATC is a great resource when you are in trouble.Don't hesitate to declare a problem early, the early you admit a problem the less likely you are to get in trouble for it. The FAA encourages it.

Good on you for keeping it all under control.

BTW, did you fly the river up from Pirates Landing? They may have been playing with the seaplanes.

Good advice!

While I would not encourage anyone to improperly enter IFR conditions, I think this whole "oh, you could have a midair" business to be utter bull****. If you have a transponder set to 1200, you will generate a radar return to those directing IFR flights, at least in a highly populated area like Southern California. Might be different over less populated areas sans radar coverage.

I have been in a situation were a NORDO without an altitude encoded transpoder was dancing pretty close to clouds that I was blasting in and out of on an IFR plan. Gives you some pucker when ATC tells you no altitude and the guy is circling.

"....


You guys might be taking the fun out of it, but you are making me revue my actions and my decisions, so I guess the flight is still not over. Last night when I went to bed, I was wishing I had never mentioned the flight at all on this board, but now, thanks to Henning's very valid question, I am glad I did.

John

John that is EXACTLY what this is all about, learning!!

 

[John Baker]

Here's my fuel burn, I had full tanks when I left San Diego, about an inch below the top of the cap well. When I got to A-20, it was at the tabs in both tanks.

I put a total of 9 gallons in the tanks before I departed for KMYF. I was having trouble figuring out their fuel pump. I had actually burned about 13 gallons. I had a great tailwind the whole way.

Yesterday they filled the tanks to just below the tops, 25.4 gallons, so it took approximately 21 gallons to buck the headwinds making the return flight. Total cost of my foolish, yet great adventure, was $212.00 fuel and another $8.00 for my sandwich and ice cream.

It was a great learning experience, if nothing else, well worth the money. Heck, a guy could spend twice that going to Magic Mountain for the day, and not have near as much fun.

John

 

[Anthony]

Smoke is no joke and can create IMC very quickly. I encountered heavy smoke several years ago coming back from St. Mary's, PA from a Canadian forest fire. It was a good 2 hour flight back, and I decided not to gas up again as I still had well over three hours in the tanks. (first mistake, remember they come in chains)

While flying home I encountered a broken layer that was becoming more and more solid, but I continued VFR on top (second near mistake). I called Flightwatch for weather along my route with stations reporting the layer was dissapating as I got closer to home. (whew)

While I did get weather and saw the reports of the forest fire in Canada, I ignored the fact that it could affect vis as far south as PA. (third mistake) Well it did, and I found myself in solid, smokey haze with no horizon. It was total instrument and fortunately I was able to pay attention to the panel and not the false horizon outside the plane, because I quickly got the leans.

The flight was uneventfull, but I would have felt a lot better with a bit more fuel with the ability to get far away from the smoke. While I still don't needlessly tanker a lot of extra fuel, I make sure I have at least an hour reserve or more if conditions look like I may need an out.

Good job John.

 

[SkyHog]

While there is no "obligation" that does not mean when they are aware of a situation they will ignore it. If you're VFR FF traffic and you tell them "The smoke is getting pretty thick around here, visibility is a bit hard to determine" They are now aware of the situation and typically take greater levels of care. I've received greater than required service from ATC on more than one occasion.

Yes. But if you don't tell them that, then they could let an IFR plane smack into a "VFR" plane that is in IMC because they're not responsible for separating them.

Sure, they'll alert if they catch it, but they're not obligated to.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It was a great learning experience, if nothing else, well worth the money. Heck, a guy could spend twice that going to Magic Mountain for the day, and not have near as much fun.

Durn skippy!

That's why I love flying - I can learn a lot and have fun doing it. And those long cross-country flights are the best learning experiences you can get.

 

[jsstevens]

John,

I have to say, after reading about your trials in getting your certificate, this kind of thread really makes me happy that you're using it. I'm glad you stuck it out and I hope you are too.

John

 

[John Baker]

John,

I have to say, after reading about your trials in getting your certificate, this kind of thread really makes me happy that you're using it. I'm glad you stuck it out and I hope you are too.

John

OH YES!!!!


John

 

[jason]

John,

After reading this thread, I want you to know how much I appreciate your attitude. Like Mari, I knew you were going to get whacked the second I read your first post in this thread. That said, I think you've handled the whacking well. You didn't get overly defensive and you realized that all of this is a great opportunity to learn.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Next time I think you'll do better. Kudos to you for learning a lesson and taking it to heart.

 

[Arnold]

John,

After reading this thread, I want you to know how much I appreciate your attitude. Like Mari, I knew you were going to get whacked the second I read your first post in this thread. That said, I think you've handled the whacking well. You didn't get overly defensive and you realized that all of this is a great opportunity to learn.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Next time I think you'll do better. Kudos to you for learning a lesson and taking it to heart.

I second that. I am impressed that most comments have been relatively gentle and even those that weren't gentle were addressed without animus.

 

[denverpilot]

It was a great learning experience, if nothing else, well worth the money. Heck, a guy could spend twice that going to Magic Mountain for the day, and not have near as much fun.

And all the Aviators said, Amen!

Shades of Rinker Buck. If you haven't read "Flight of Passage" John, I think you'd enjoy it.

More people should play the real-life, "Choose Your Own Adventure" game. It's way more fun than theme parks.

 

[John Baker]

I went to Disneyland California once, about 35-40 years ago, the only thing I liked was Pirates of the Caribbean. I've been to Sea World in San Diego two times, again about 35 years ago. I've been to the San Diego Zoo probably 5-6 times.

I don't know what it is, but entertainment geared for the masses just never worked for me. I have not watched a television program other than the evening fluff in probably 8-10 years.

Ya just gotta do stuff on your own.

John

 

[gil_mor]

Good job, I'm also a new pilot. I learned from your experince, so thanks!

On the FIRST XC flight after I got my PPL, I saw a thin layer of clouds, but they were lower then they should, and I was facing the same dilemma as you did.

I found a hole in the clouds, Vx-ed it, and was able to maintain visual with ground - thank you Mt. Humphreys!

Sky clear at destination.

On my way back I was thinking about alternates - what if I have to climb too high, what if they cover my home airport, etc.
All was well and I gained more respect to clouds, and LESS to forecastes :wink2:

License to learn!

 

[Richard]

Ya just gotta do stuff on your own.

John

What took ya so long?

 

[Henning]

Yes. But if you don't tell them that, then they could let an IFR plane smack into a "VFR" plane that is in IMC because they're not responsible for separating them.

Sure, they'll alert if they catch it, but they're not obligated to.

Haven't experienced that. IFR or VFR FF I'll get "69SA VFR traffic 11:00 I;m not talking to him Suggest(if VFR FF otherwise skip "suggest") come to heading of 330".