My great adventure, on an impulse.

[John Baker]

I had the day off, but I woke up early anyway. I went up to the airport with no plan at all. I was by myself so I decided to make a flight across the desert to Sun Valley Arizona. (A-20) That is the home of Sheble aviation, where I got my ticket.

This is the longest flight I've ever made solo, around 225nm each way.
The weather was great, I had a good tailwind, and of course, moderate turbulence over the hot desert. I noticed a large fire to the south, and the smoke heading north below me, but it was no big deal. I was was at 7,500'

So, I get there, the radio is silent, there was a stiff breeze, about 15kts G to 20, going straight down the runway. I made one of my best landings and taxied over to Sheble Aviation. No one, not one person was there. They have a little self serve snack bar, so I had a sandwich and an ice cream and left my money in the jar.

I gassed up my Warrior and headed back, into a nice headwind the whole way. So I'm flying at 8,500' and just at about my halfway mark when I enter the smoke from the fire I saw on the way out. I wasn't all that concerned at first, it seemed fairly thin, but not for long. I was engulfed and lost sight of the ground and the horizon. I called flight watch and made a pirep, then for the first time, I was on a genuine instrument flight.

I decided to see if I could climb above it and broke through at 10,500'. So I had about 20 minutes of genuine IFR flying, which is the point of this whole post, I did great. I get to brag.

Then as I was approaching Borrego Valley, on my way to the Julian VOR, which sits atop a mountain, I started sinking at over a 1000' per minute.
I could not get her to climb at all, and turned south toward V-66. The next thing I knew, I was at 12,500', so I turned back to the Julian VOR.

Julian is the point when you know your home, I was on the ground in about half an hour.

Four and a half hours of flying, what a great day.

John

 

[BillTIZ]

I hope you picked up an IFR clearance for those 20 minutes.
Or was the visibility greater than 3-5nm, with no horizon and no ground contact?

 

[denverpilot]

I assume he means that he called FlightWatch to file an IFR flight plan... But I'll withhold comment otherwise.

Anyway...

As far as the flight goes, sounds like a good little cross-country. Smoke from fires is an interesting way to watch a good VFR day go to pot.

That smoke from the Arizona fires was blown all the way to the Colorado Front Range and further today. It was hazy and smoky here today.

Sounds like you got a good lesson at a safe altitude about Mountain Wave, too.

That "CAUTION: Extreme turbulence and severe up and down drafts during high wind conditions." on the San Diego Terminal Area chart there printed right at the VOR is probably there for a reason, huh?

 

[John Baker]

I've flown over the Julian VOR more times than I can remember. The main thing is to have plenty of altitude above it, I like two thousand feet minimum agl., mountain waves can get you. It can get pretty rowdy, but it is usually a lot worse when you are over the desert itself between the VOR and the Salton Sea.

Flying in the San Diego region, bumpy rides are pretty much the norm, it's a rare day when we have smooth air over the east county. I prefer that to flying along the coast where the air is smooth. On Sundays everybody and their brother are flying up and down the coast, it's like a freeway. I'd much rather bump into bumpy air than bump into another airplane.

But yes, it was a learning experience, but then I guess most flights are.

As far as the smoke was concerned, I decided it was best to hold my course and try to climb out of it. Smoke is different than clouds, by turning back I could have entered into even worse conditions. I did know on the way out, it was well below me, so I figured the top could not be all that far up. Most all of the Imperial Valley was socked in by it.

Anyway, I'm a new pilot, so I get to make less than perfect flights. Myself, I thought I did great, and I thought my plane did too.

John

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Excellent - Sounds like you got some great learning experiences in, and that's what it's all about.

 

[Henning]

So I'm guessing you aren't instrument rated and weren't IFR correct? Were you on Flight Following? Because you don't really have to switch to flight watch to give a Pirep, I've never had ATC get ****ey about getting a pirep, and they call me for them every now and then.

If you are in actual IMC conditions and don't have at least proper visibility, you should be on an IFR flight plan with a code and everything to prevent a midair. With flight following you're always talking with the same people as when IFR, so when you run into something like this, you can make the pirep and let ATC know that you have a visibility issue (or whatever problem you run into) from smoke and they know to watch out for you and provide you help. For instance they can call one of the planes working the fire and get you a vector to nearest clear air. ATC is a great resource when you are in trouble.Don't hesitate to declare a problem early, the early you admit a problem the less likely you are to get in trouble for it. The FAA encourages it.

Good on you for keeping it all under control.

BTW, did you fly the river up from Pirates Landing? They may have been playing with the seaplanes.

 

[steingar]

While I would not encourage anyone to improperly enter IFR conditions, I think this whole "oh, you could have a midair" business to be utter bull****. If you have a transponder set to 1200, you will generate a radar return to those directing IFR flights, at least in a highly populated area like Southern California. Might be different over less populated areas sans radar coverage.

 

[Henning]

While I would not encourage anyone to improperly enter IFR conditions, I think this whole "oh, you could have a midair" business to be utter bull****. If you have a transponder set to 1200, you will generate a radar return to those directing IFR flights, at least in a highly populated area like Southern California. Might be different over less populated areas sans radar coverage.

The real risk is not IFR traffic, the real risk is other VFR traffic in the same situation. Even on VFR FF you'll get traffic advisories, it's just that with IFR, it's their job to provide you with separation.

 

[steingar]

The real risk is not IFR traffic, the real risk is other VFR traffic in the same situation. Even on VFR FF you'll get traffic advisories, it's just that with IFR, it's their job to provide you with separation.

The risk I've always heard is IFR traffic. I would feel badly for an IFR aircraft hitting a VFR aircraft inappropriately operating in IMC. I wouldn't feel badly at all over two VFR aircraft colliding in IMC.

With the number of aircraft operating these days I wouldn't even worry about that. Even in GAs heyday I doubt there were many collisions of two aircraft in cruise flight. I've been told most of those took place around uncontrolled fields and VORs.

 

[John Baker]

I am not IFR rated. When I called Los Angeles Flight Watch, I could just barely make out the surface. I told them that I had the surface in sight, but I did not have a horizon at all. After I made the call, I lost sight of the ground altogether.

I agree, I should have gone on flight following, next time I will for sure. I was not panicked at all, simply because I knew darn well it was smoke and not clouds, and the top had to be near. It was further than I thought, it was a full twenty minutes before a broke above it.

I had called earlier for a weather report on the coast, so I had been maintaining contact with them, they knew I was out there.

As far as traffic goes, there is rarely any that far out, although I was on an airway between VORs.

One thing I know for sure, I had a great day flying.

John

 

[flyingcheesehead]

While I would not encourage anyone to improperly enter IFR conditions, I think this whole "oh, you could have a midair" business to be utter bull****. If you have a transponder set to 1200, you will generate a radar return to those directing IFR flights, at least in a highly populated area like Southern California.

So the NTSB will be able to see two radar returns merge... But everyone's still gonna be dead.

Remember, ATC's job is to separate IFR traffic from IFR traffic. Period. Anything else, including separating IFR from VFR, is on an as-needed basis. If you're squawking 1200 and you get in the way of an IFR airplane, the system is relying on you to see and avoid them by virtue of having your cloud clearance and visibility requirements and keeping your traffic scan going.

The IFR aircraft *may* get a "VFR traffic, opposite direction, 12 o'clock" or they may not - It depends if the controller has a free moment at that point in time.

I agree, I should have gone on flight following, next time I will for sure. I was not panicked at all, simply because I knew darn well it was smoke and not clouds, and the top had to be near. It was further than I thought, it was a full twenty minutes before a broke above it.

Therein lies a valuable lesson - Once you're in IMC, you don't "know" anything WRT where it's going to end. That's why they teach the 180, as it's the most likely maneuver to get you out of trouble since it'll leave you reasonably close to an area that you just left that was clear. There are certainly cases where that won't be true (approaching storm front or something) but it does give you the best chance.

I'm curious why you say smoke is different? It is, but I think the 180 is *more* likely to work with smoke than clouds, since clouds can form as well as move. The source of the smoke is the fire, and the smoke will only go where the winds take it as well as up until it's cooled to the point where it's at the same temperature as the surrounding air. If you do a 180, you won't have more smoke forming behind you. Also, depending on how far you are from the fire, a descent might be better than a climb, provided you know where the terrain is. I won't say you did the wrong thing as it's all situations, but hopefully I've given you some things to consider.

I'm glad you made it out of your IMC encounter alive. Most don't.

One thing I know for sure, I had a great day flying.

Here's to many more!

 

[John Baker]

I don't know if I did the right thing, technically or not, however I have discovered when a person reaches that "Oh Sh*t" moment, analytical reasoning does not always seem to kick in when you need it the most. Granted, training is meant to help in those situations, but even so, I felt doing a wide gentle 180 would be more risky than climbing up and over it.

The winds over the desert were in the 12-30 knot range, and gusting even higher, They were also widely variable, so my thinking was that the smoke could be moving all over the place, but not all that much higher than my 8,500' altitude, so that's what I decided to do.

It worked out just dandy.

John

 

[Arnold]

You weren't IFR as you state in your original post, you were IMC the difference being that a VFR pilot in IMC conditions is breaking the law, while an IFR pilot may or may not be. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and read your several posts as stating that you did not expect the smoke to worsen, when it did you decided to climb above it rather than turn around (I can't for life of me figure why you thought that was better). I don't understand what it is you "get to brag" about. Continuing on into worsening flight conditions and surviving? I've done that and I feel humbled not proud.

Your statement that you are a new pilot so you "get to make less than perfect flights" belies a misunderstanding of the seriousness of flight. I am not a new pilot and while I strive to make every flight perfect I've never done so. Still, I believe one of the things that has kept me from creating widows and orphans over 34 years of boring holes in the sky is my dedication to that elusive goal, the perfect flight. A goal I've had from the moment I first got behind the controls of an aircraft and for every flight thereafter.

One last thing. An enforcement agency could easily misconstrue the first post as an admission of intentional flight into IMC conditions and continuing on in those conditions so you could brag about it. Perhaps you should be more cautious when posting.

I hope you have many years of safe flying and urge you not to "brag" about surviving your mistakes and remember you don't get a pass on flying to the standards of the certificate you hold, including standards of good judgment, even if the ink is still wet.

 

[Steve]

it's not like there's a lack of literature on the subject

http://www.pilotsafetynews.com/VFR into IMC Accidents.htm

http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2004/sp0401.html

http://www.faa.gov/library/online_libraries/aerospace_medicine/sd/media/Goh.pdf

http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/vie...ses&sei-redir=1#search="continue+vfr+into+imc"

http://www.cwu.edu/~aviation/faculty_files/Optimistic and Ability Biases.pdf

 

[zaitcev]

I almost flew into thick smoke on my checkride. By a supreme effort from our asthmatic Cherokee and flying at Vx we squeeked right on top (fortunately that thing has enough cooling flow to fly on Vx whole day long). I really should've turned back, now that I think about it. Poor ADM. DPE let it slip, just asked what did I think the visibility range was within the smoke. I said that I considered it a cloud for that purpose.

 

[Everskyward]

I am not IFR rated. When I called Los Angeles Flight Watch, I could just barely make out the surface. I told them that I had the surface in sight, but I did not have a horizon at all. After I made the call, I lost sight of the ground altogether.

Losing sight of the ground doesn't make it IMC. You can fly in VMC on top all day. But you had more than 3 miles flight visibility, right? OK.

 

[Henning]

The risk I've always heard is IFR traffic. I would feel badly for an IFR aircraft hitting a VFR aircraft inappropriately operating in IMC. I wouldn't feel badly at all over two VFR aircraft colliding in IMC.

With the number of aircraft operating these days I wouldn't even worry about that. Even in GAs heyday I doubt there were many collisions of two aircraft in cruise flight. I've been told most of those took place around uncontrolled fields and VORs.

He's out over the desert, very few people below FL180 are going to be IFR, lots of people VFR out there. Thing is smoke can be sneaky, all of a sudden the fire makes it around a corner and finds a fuel cache and a breeze and suddenly that haze you were in becomes a more dense billow of smoke. Add to that that if you're near a fire that big, you are near people flying on that fire, and that fire may attract other VFR traffic to "come have a look".

If it had not been for flight following and ATC frantically calling "04Y IMMEDIATE DESCENT" I can recall at least 2 or three times I would have been hit from behind. But, that was before "GPS Direct" when everyone flew airways. The fire is an attraction point much like a VOR was.

 

[Henning]

I am not IFR rated. When I called Los Angeles Flight Watch, I could just barely make out the surface. I told them that I had the surface in sight, but I did not have a horizon at all. After I made the call, I lost sight of the ground altogether.

I agree, I should have gone on flight following, next time I will for sure. I was not panicked at all, simply because I knew darn well it was smoke and not clouds, and the top had to be near. It was further than I thought, it was a full twenty minutes before a broke above it.

I had called earlier for a weather report on the coast, so I had been maintaining contact with them, they knew I was out there.

As far as traffic goes, there is rarely any that far out, although I was on an airway between VORs.

One thing I know for sure, I had a great day flying.

John

Did you consider just turning perpendicular to the wind? That would have been your shortest fastest way out of the smoke.

 

[ajstoner21]

I'm glad everything turned out well!

What was the in flight visbility like before the smoke? Could you see it early enough to completely avoid it?

Regardless of being IFR rated, I think I would have tried to avoid it all together, just a guess, but it can't be good for the airplane's engine.

 

[John Baker]

Let me try to be clear, I did not deliberately fly into IFR conditions. The sky was clear, I called and got a weather briefing for my destination. I was told it was clear all the way. On that assumption, I held my course and altitude. I did see the smoke a goodly distance ahead of me, but after my weather briefing, I assumed it would be thin, and to VFR standards.

When it started to get considerably worse, I called L A Flight watch and informed them of my visibility conditions, it then got even worse.

Whatever took place, I never once felt the outcome was in jeopardy. Looking behind me, the smoke had turned dark gray to black in some areas, mostly it was white to yellow. In my mind, turning back or descending was not an option.

Perhaps I should not have used the word "brag" to describe how I handled the situation, maybe I was just feeling good that it went so well.

I do not feel that I broke any laws or rules by climbing above the smoke in order to extricate myself from it, I feel I did the exact right thing. Even so, three miles is not very far out in front of the airplane, I probably was well within that requirement. The issue is, I lost sight of the horizon, and then the ground at 8,500'. I made every effort to regain my VFR conditions as rapidly as was possible, which I did by climbing.

Sheez.... you guys take the fun out of everything.

John

 

[John Baker]

"If you encounter diminished visibilities, follow your plan! That may be to do a 180 degree turn, divert to another airport, climb, request a pop-up IFR clearance or something else. Whatever it is, don't wait to do it! Too many accidents occur because pilots don't take action when they first detect a developing problem. " ​

 

[jesse]

While I would not encourage anyone to improperly enter IFR conditions, I think this whole "oh, you could have a midair" business to be utter bull****. If you have a transponder set to 1200, you will generate a radar return to those directing IFR flights, at least in a highly populated area like Southern California. Might be different over less populated areas sans radar coverage.

When I fly to Minnesota I'm in a non-radar environment for a good 30-45 minutes. This is over the midwest at 6,000 feet. It'd really ruin my day to have a VFR guy in IMC run me down. Assuming that ATC will notice you and assuming they'll separate you from IFR traffic is pretty insane. They separate IFR traffic from IFR traffic.

It's amazing how many people there are running around without instrument ratings in IMC cheating the system. Someday they'll end up dead. I've witnessed it many times..and I've had "experienced" pilots brag about it to me. I just don't get it....

I understand that a VFR guy can accidentally enter IMC. I get that. But they need to TELL ATC.

 

[Henning]

When it started to get considerably worse, I called L A Flight watch and informed them of my visibility conditions, it then got even worse.

Whatever took place, I never once felt the outcome was in jeopardy. Looking behind me, the smoke had turned dark gray to black in some areas, mostly it was white to yellow. In my mind, turning back or descending was not an option.

Perhaps I should not have used the word "brag" to describe how I handled the situation, maybe I was just feeling good that it went so well.

I do not feel that I broke any laws or rules by climbing above the smoke in order to extricate myself from it, I feel I did the exact right thing. Even so, three miles is not very far out in front of the airplane, I probably was well within that requirement. The issue is, I lost sight of the horizon, and then the ground at 8,500'. I made every effort to regain VMC conditions as rapidly as was possible, which I did by climbing.

Sheez.... you guys take the fun out of everything.

John

Fixed that for you. You never lost VFR because VFR is a set of rules you were operating under. In order to lose VFR you have to file IFR. You can be in IMC while VFR and vice versa.

Why do you think climbing was your best option? What hazard did climbing present you with? How many hazards can you think of that are involved in flying in smoke?

 

[John Baker]

"Why do you think climbing was your best option? What hazard did climbing present you with? How many hazards can you think of that are involved in flying in smoke? "

As I stated in an earlier post, I had flown well above the smoke on my way east to A-20 at 7,500' (Hemispheric rule)

As I was heading west at 8,500' (Hemispheric rule) the smoke was now at my altitude. It looked worse behind me, and below me than it did ahead and above me.
Even though I had just flown through it, the wind was dramatic. At this point I was west of the Parker VOR, and slightly east, about 15 nm, of Chiriaco Summit (L-77)

Climbing was still my best option, than turning back or descending.

In my mind, the biggest danger of a person with my experience flying into smoke and losing sight of the horizon is spatial disorientation, at least in that area of the desert, not many aircraft operating out there.

This explains why I was concentrating more on my instruments, primarily my horizon gyro and the rest of the six pack. The second biggest danger, as pointed out, is of course, other aircraft, fire equipment and tourists.

The fire was many miles to my south, possibly even in Mexico, I did see that on my way east, so I was not all that concerned about other aircraft, although I was following the hemispheric rule, except of course during that twenty minute climb.

On my flight east, over that same course, in clear sky and a great tailwind, I did not see one other aircraft, anywhere. It was not an idyllic day for flying small aircraft due to the "moderate turbulence"

I did have other aircraft on my mind, but maintaining control , and getting out of the conditions as quickly as possible were my primary concerns.

I guess, as previously mentioned, that smoke could be harmful to my engine, but I don't believe I thought of that at the time, at least not that I can recall.


You guys might be taking the fun out of it, but you are making me revue my actions and my decisions, so I guess the flight is still not over. Last night when I went to bed, I was wishing I had never mentioned the flight at all on this board, but now, thanks to Henning's very valid question, I am glad I did.

John

 

[Everskyward]

I do not feel that I broke any laws or rules by climbing above the smoke in order to extricate myself from it, I feel I did the exact right thing. Even so, three miles is not very far out in front of the airplane, I probably was well within that requirement.

If you had 3 miles flight visibility you were still within the VFR cloud clearance and visibility requirements (as long as you were below 10,000' MSL).

The issue is, I lost sight of the horizon, and then the ground at 8,500'.

That doesn't mean that you have necessarily violated the VFR rules. You can legally fly VFR without seeing the ground or the horizon. An example would be on a dark night over that same desert with a high overcast. Whether that is smart or not is another question.

Sheez.... you guys take the fun out of everything.

Unfortunately I knew you were going to be slapped after your first post when your wrote this.

So I had about 20 minutes of genuine IFR flying, which is the point of this whole post, I did great. I get to brag.

Most people who follow this board and your story know that you are not instrument rated. But even though you were primarily using your instruments for orientation you were probably still legally VFR.

Smoke is a tricky thing, especially when it becomes diffuse and widespread which seems to be what you were experiencing. I've frequently seen smoke in the Denver area from fires which are not even in Colorado. There are no sharp edges to the smoke and it's hard to tell where it's going to be or how high it goes in the absence of PIREPS.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You guys might be taking the fun out of it, but you are making me revue my actions and my decisions, so I guess the flight is still not over.

John,

Despite the discussion here not being as fun as the flight itself, it's an important way for you and the rest of us to continue learning. Heck, sometimes I post things here *knowing* I'm going to get spanked because I know I'll probably learn quite a bit too.

I hope you'll continue to post stories here.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I hope you'll continue to post stories here.

Me too!

I did see the smoke a goodly distance ahead of me, but after my weather briefing, I assumed it would be thin, and to VFR standards.

That's probably one of the best lessons learned on this flight... you have to deal with the weather that's actually out there, not what was forecast or mentioned in a weather briefing. Fires can pop up at anytime and totally throw off the visibility forecast you'd previously received. Did your briefing actually mention anything about fires? If not, then it's likely the fire wasn't under way or impacting things when you got your briefing--so now that you see it, it's time for an update or change of plans.

Another thing to consider for next time is that fires often generate a TFR. So if you see a large fire that wasn't previously mentioned or briefed impacting your path of flight, it's worth getting on the radio to Flight Service for an update on the situation before you get to the smoke.

Glad you had a good outcome and good flight!

 

[Henning]

You never mentioned hypoxia and CO and other poisoning of yourself as hazards of flying in smoke and trying to climb out. The piston recip engine on your plane is a lot more tolerant of the nasty stuff in smoke than you are. Also consider your density altitude on that flight. You were at 7500MSL but you may very easily been at a density altitude well above that, even into altitudes where O2 is required. I'm not sure that PP materials really go into O2 physiology very well.

Another thing about fires is that they are not stable. They can hit a fuel source like a dense stand of timber and billow up several thousand more feet in a matter of moments. If all is unknown, your best bet for rapid egress is horizontal perpendicular to the wind.

You did well and more importantly you reacted well. I'm not trying to dis you, you're a new pilot and I'm just trying to give you some food for thought to advance your progress.

 

[TripleZ]

Losing sight of the ground doesn't make it IMC. You can fly in VMC on top all day. But you had more than 3 miles flight visibility, right? OK.

Is this valid without an IFR rating? VFR on top is typically used with an IFR through a thin cloud layer, right. (VMC with IFR) I thought as a VFR pilot only, one must maintain visual reference to the ground (night flying of course makes this sometimes different), ie we cant fly over the top of a broken or overcast layer, without being able to see the ground off to one side or in front. (VFR rules)

Otherwise, a VFR pilot could get stuck on top of an overcast layer, without the ability to descend.

Looking in the FAR/AIM for the specific wording............

 

[Everskyward]

Is this valid without an IFR rating? VFR on top is typically used with an IFR through a thin cloud layer, right. (VMC with IFR) I thought as a VFR pilot only, one must maintain visual reference to the ground (night flying of course makes this sometimes different), ie we cant fly over the top of a broken or overcast layer, without being able to see the ground off to one side or in front. (VFR rules)

Student pilots cannot fly without reference to the ground but Private or better pilots can. While the term "VFR on top" has a specific definition you can fly VFR over clouds without being on an IFR flight plan.

Otherwise, a VFR pilot could get stuck on top of an overcast layer, without the ability to descend.

That could be a potential problem but does not make it illegal. You could take off, climb out in VFR conditions and fly over an undercast which does not extend to your destination.

 

[gprellwitz]

Is this valid without an IFR rating? VFR on top is typically used with an IFR through a thin cloud layer, right. (VMC with IFR) I thought as a VFR pilot only, one must maintain visual reference to the ground (night flying of course makes this sometimes different), ie we cant fly over the top of a broken or overcast layer, without being able to see the ground off to one side or in front. (VFR rules)

Otherwise, a VFR pilot could get stuck on top of an overcast layer, without the ability to descend.

Looking in the FAR/AIM for the specific wording............

It's perfectly legal for a non-instrument rated private pilot to fly "VFR over the top" of clouds and be out of sight of ground, but still be in VMC. "VFR on top" is actually an IFR clearance, as you note.

 

[Henning]

Is this valid without an IFR rating? VFR on top is typically used with an IFR through a thin cloud layer, right. (VMC with IFR) I thought as a VFR pilot only, one must maintain visual reference to the ground (night flying of course makes this sometimes different), ie we cant fly over the top of a broken or overcast layer, without being able to see the ground off to one side or in front. (VFR rules)

Otherwise, a VFR pilot could get stuck on top of an overcast layer, without the ability to descend.

Looking in the FAR/AIM for the specific wording............

Many times on a longer flight you'll have stretches where you are VFR on top of a layer, especially large valleys, without ever going through IMC.

As far as getting stuck on top, yeah, it's actually one of the key references where the phrase "just because it's legal doesn't make it safe." is used.

 

[gprellwitz]

John, I'm glad you posted this. As you indicated, probably your greatest immediate risk was of disorientation, as you said. As Mari pointed out, you may have actually still been legal VMC, especially since you really had no way of gauging the distance you could see. However, you felt that you had no outside reference, and that should have you thinking to yourself that "Hmmm, maybe I have a situation where my survival is in doubt? Why don't I declare an emergency?" That wouldn't have done anything to address the risk of disorientation or other physiological effects, but it would have alleviated any risk of colliding with another plane, because then ATC will be providing separation for you. Whether your choice of climbing was a better alternative than turning perpendicular to the wind or doing a 180 is something I'm not going to get into.

Thanks for starting this discussion, and I'm glad you had a good (and educational!) flight!

 

[Henning]

It's perfectly legal for a non-instrument rated private pilot to fly "VFR over the top" of clouds and be out of sight of ground, but still be in VMC. "VFR on top" is actually an IFR clearance, as you note.

I've always thought the phrasing of that distinction was p--s poor.

 

[Arbiter419]

Losing sight of the ground doesn't make it IMC. You can fly in VMC on top all day. But you had more than 3 miles flight visibility, right? OK.

Exactly. John, I'm glad you had a good flight.

 

[Henning]

John, I'm glad you posted this. As you indicated, probably your greatest immediate risk was of disorientation, as you said. As Mari pointed out, you may have actually still been legal VMC, especially since you really had no way of gauging the distance you could see. However, you felt that you had no outside reference, and that should have you thinking to yourself that "Hmmm, maybe I have a situation where my survival is in doubt? Why don't I declare an emergency?" That wouldn't have done anything to address the risk of disorientation or other physiological effects, but it would have alleviated any risk of colliding with another plane, because then ATC will be providing separation for you. Whether your choice of climbing was a better alternative than turning perpendicular to the wind or doing a 180 is something I'm not going to get into.

Thanks for starting this discussion, and I'm glad you had a good (and educational!) flight!

Correct, IOW, when operating in a multi risk environment, reduce as many as you can as much as you can. Another service ATC can provide you if they are aware is warn you of rising terrain.

 

[gprellwitz]

I've always thought the phrasing of that distinction was p--s poor.

Agreed. I had to go look it up to make sure I had the terminology right.

 

[Mike Smith]

Obviously survival is paramount, and I am in no way condoning disregard of regs. My question is, is a pilot who is not instrument rated finds himself in a similar situation as this, would declaring an emergency prompt a visit from the FAA?

 

[TangoWhiskey]

It's perfectly legal for a non-instrument rated private pilot to fly "VFR over the top" of clouds and be out of sight of ground, but still be in VMC. "VFR on top" is actually an IFR clearance, as you note.

In the U.S. It's different in Canada and some other countries. Just clarifying since we do have a multinational audience, despite the site's name.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Obviously survival is paramount, and I am in no way condoning disregard of regs. My question is, is a pilot who is not instrument rated finds himself in a similar situation as this, would declaring an emergency prompt a visit from the FAA?

Doubtful, unless a blatant disregard for regs and/or safety is what got you there in the first place.

But, I'm reminded of something Rick Durden said on a Pilotcast a few years ago: "You have to be alive to get in trouble." He said that we all know what it's like to get in trouble, and we know we don't like it, but we don't know what it's like to get dead, and thus some people choose poorly. Wise words.