My First Low Wing Experience!!

C. Kelley

C. Kelley

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C. Kelley
Up until Friday I had never flown a low wing aircraft. I have flown many different models of 172 but that's about it. I noticed that the new flight school at KCSG has a '79 C23 Beech Sundowner. I checked out in it Friday evening and I can't stay out of it!

The hardest thing I have noticed is my habit of pulling power before the threshold (like I have always done in the 172) but I am getting over it. I like having to actually fly the airplane all the way to 1000 footers.

I think I'm in love.....
 
C. Kelley said:
Up until Friday I had never flown a low wing aircraft. I have flown many different models of 172 but that's about it. I noticed that the new flight school at KCSG has a '79 C23 Beech Sundowner. I checked out in it Friday evening and I can't stay out of it!

The hardest thing I have noticed is my habit of pulling power before the threshold (like I have always done in the 172) but I am getting over it. I like having to actually fly the airplane all the way to 1000 footers.

I think I'm in love.....
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Do you think you need to carry power into the touchdown in the Sundowner?
 
gismo said:
Do you think you need to carry power into the touchdown in the Sundowner?
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...Because you don't. Although, it does seem to drop more than a 172, it can be landed power-off just fine. Suggest you practice doing so.
 
I noticed that as soon as I pull power the aircraft seems to not want to glide. During my checkout they surprised me with an engine out and I noticed that, unlike the 172, it just seemed to drop and before I knew it I was almost at tree-top level trying to make a field.
 
jesse said:
...Because you don't. Although, it does seem to drop more than a 172, it can be landed power-off just fine. Suggest you practice doing so.
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I definitely pull power for the flare. During the checkout I was told to maintain 80 mph on final. I can be on glideslope, by the PAPI, and maintaining 80 but it seems like as soon as I pull power I instantly slow down and sink to the point I can not maintain the glideslope making me land before the 1000' mark.

This could be attributed to the fact that I doubled my time in this aircraft last night by logging 1.8 hours :tongue:. I'm sure as I fly more hours in the C23 I will get my groove.
 
C. Kelley said:
I definitely pull power for the flare. During the checkout I was told to maintain 80 mph on final. I can be on glideslope, by the PAPI, and maintaining 80 but it seems like as soon as I pull power I instantly slow down and sink to the point I can not maintain the glideslope making me land before the 1000' mark.

This could be attributed to the fact that I doubled my time in this aircraft last night by logging 1.8 hours :tongue:. I'm sure as I fly more hours in the C23 I will get my groove.
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Do you ever land before the 1000' mark? I always do..but that's just me. Sometimes I'll land further down if it makes my taxi easier but then I'll be above the glide slope on final.
 
C. Kelley said:
I definitely pull power for the flare. During the checkout I was told to maintain 80 mph on final.
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That seems fast to me. What do the normal procedure in the PoH say?

The stall speed on that plane should be around 50knots. Usually a normal approach speed 1.3 Vso or about 65knots. If you are at 80 knots that is a lot of speed to burn off in the flare. I admit I have little experience with that plane so take my observation with a grain of salt, but do go check the PoH.

I used this http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info/airplane127.shtml for getting the stall speed.
 
jesse said:
Do you ever land before the 1000' mark? I always do..but that's just me. Sometimes I'll land further down if it makes my taxi easier but then I'll be above the glide slope on final.
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I will land before the 1000' if the airport is busy or if someone is on final behind me so I can leave the active quickly. Normally I try and touch down on the 1000' with 'try' being operative word :D.
 
C. Kelley said:
I will land before the 1000' if the airport is busy or if someone is on final behind me so I can leave the active quickly. Normally I try and touch down on the 1000' with 'try' being operative word :D.
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I try to land on the numbers unless asked otherwise. What is that old rule about useless runway?

Cool that you got to fly a new airplane, sounded fun. :thumbsup:
 
smigaldi said:
That seems fast to me. What do the normal procedure in the PoH say?

The stall speed on that plane should be around 50knots. Usually a normal approach speed 1.3 Vso or about 65knots. If you are at 80 knots that is a lot of speed to burn off in the flare. I admit I have little experience with that plane so take my observation with a grain of salt, but do go check the PoH.

I used this http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info/airplane127.shtml for getting the stall speed.
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The airspeed indicator uses MPH for its major unit on the outer arc and Knots on the minor, inner arc. According to a handy internet converter 80 mph is around 69 knots so that is pretty close.

I noticed that with full flaps and around 70-75 MPH (~60-65 knots) the stall horn starts yelling so I try and keep my airspeed parked at 80 MPH.

BTW. Thank you for linking me to that website. It seems like it will be pretty useful.
 
C. Kelley said:
The airspeed indicator uses MPH for its major unit on the outer arc and Knots on the minor, inner arc. According to a handy internet converter 80 mph is around 69 knots so that is pretty close.

I noticed that with full flaps and around 70-75 MPH (~60-65 knots) the stall horn starts yelling so I try and keep my airspeed parked at 80 MPH.

BTW. Thank you for linking me to that website. It seems like it will be pretty useful.
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I missed that it was 80MPH not 80 knots.

Ya that is a lot closer to reasonable approach speed. What is the stall speed with full flaps for that plane?
 
smigaldi said:
I try to land on the numbers unless asked otherwise. What is that old rule about useless runway?

Cool that you got to fly a new airplane, sounded fun. :thumbsup:
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Yeah it was quite an experience. I felt like a little kid while I was checking out. I have been skeptical but now I'm looking forward to trying new aircraft in the future.
 
I got to check out in a Sundowner ~3 years ago. I was hoping to fly it more, but someone landed downwind and totaled it before I got any more time. They do glide, but it's steeper than a 172. You're not going to maintain the 3 deg PAPI or VASI slope with the power off. That said, we (me mostly but with some helpful hints by my CFI) did a 180 degre power off landing in the Sundowner as part of my check out. That was a blast!

I also liked the roomier cabin. Several folks in the flying group said it was a great instrument training platform - stable and slow.

Enjoy!
John
 
Yeah I'm a heavy guy (290-300 lbs) I like the useful load and the room in the cabin. I'm looking into options for my IR and if do not end up co-owning a training aircraft I am thinking about working towards my rating in this aircraft.
 
I had an 83. Full aft trim, 1500 rpm, it landed itself at 65 knots. Perfect glideslope. Plus, aft trim was easy to overpower so it wasn't an issue on a go-around (unlike, say, the 182 or the Matrix).

Slow = good landings in a Sundowner. Play around, in the air, at the low end of the airspeed range. Get comfortable. The airplane won't drop out of the sky. All the negative crap about Sundowners being hard to land is that, crap. Manage your airspeed. Bomb down short final at 80kts and it's going to bounce. 65kts on short final and you'll bleed off over the threshold, a greaser every time.

I earned my wings in an Archer, first plane was a Sundowner, but gotta say, I kinda like the wings on top. Sightseeing in the 182 was fun. Now I have the Matrix, it's harder to say "Hey, looky there!!!"
 
The rule is that anytime you see a guy aiming for the numbers every time you pull the engine on final to see what he will do. uote=smigaldi;491602]I try to land on the numbers unless asked otherwise. What is that old rule about useless runway?

Cool that you got to fly a new airplane, sounded fun. :thumbsup:[/quote]
 
wabower said:
The rule is that anytime you see a guy aiming for the numbers every time you pull the engine on final to see what he will do.
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Crap, Wayne, I'm lucky if I can aim the airplane at a runway!

You have seen this principle in action.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Play around, in the air, at the low end of the airspeed range. Get comfortable. The airplane won't drop out of the sky.
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During the checkout they had me do slow flight but I think I was more taken by the whole 'this is my first low wing' that I didn't really take note of the handling characteristics.

Next time I rent this plane (soon) I am going to practice slow flight and get more comfortable.

Also 80 MPH is around 69 knots so I'm close on the 65 knots final approach speed.
 
C. Kelley said:
During the checkout they had me do slow flight but I think I was more taken by the whole 'this is my first low wing' that I didn't really take note of the handling characteristics.
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Next time, fly the airplane and for a few seconds, close your eyes -- still an airplane, ain't it?

:yes:
 
steingar said:
High wings are great until you want to actually see the runway.
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Huh....ONLY in the turns in the pattern do I "lose the runway" and I have gotten well over that issue and it is not a problem any more. Anyone that finds it a problem needs to fly more.
 
tdager said:
Huh....ONLY in the turns in the pattern do I "lose the runway" and I have gotten well over that issue and it is not a problem any more. Anyone that finds it a problem needs to fly more.
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You "loose" the runway, meaning you don't see it. High wings are great until you actually want to see the runway. Are we a bit linguistically challenged today?
 
C. Kelley said:
Next time I rent this plane (soon) I am going to practice slow flight and get more comfortable.
.
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Spike made this pic. Note the airspeed needle. The A23 is very easy to fly at MCA.
 

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wabower said:
The rule is that anytime you see a guy aiming for the numbers every time you pull the engine on final to see what he will do.
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A long time ago I was getting checked out in a rental 172 at an airport in central Florida by a CFI who was in a bit of a hurry. After takeoff we spent a few minutes doing stalls and then returned to the airport for what I expected to be a series of landings. On downwind he told me to show him a "normal" landing and then pulled the power shortly after I passed the end of the runway with flaps partially deployed. I wrapped the plane around in a circling approach, slipped off the extra speed and landed relatively smoothly about 500 feet down the runway. He then told me to return to the FBO where he signed me off for the checkout.

Was that you?:D
 
gismo said:
A long time ago I was getting checked out in a rental 172 at an airport in central Florida by a CFI who was in a bit of a hurry. After takeoff we spent a few minutes doing stalls and then returned to the airport for what I expected to be a series of landings. On downwind he told me to show him a "normal" landing and then pulled the power shortly after I passed the end of the runway with flaps partially deployed. I wrapped the plane around in a circling approach, slipped off the extra speed and landed relatively smoothly about 500 feet down the runway. He then told me to return to the FBO where he signed me off for the checkout.

Was that you?:D
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It sounds like it could be my CFI. Although as far as I know he's not worked for any of the FBO's at Orlando Executiive.

On the Sundowner chekcout we were asked to expidite our landing. He acknowledged and pulled the power - told me go ahead and do the 180 power off (which we'd done a few times during my PP training). I did and it was fun. Speaking of which, I haven't done one in a long time. I should go do that.

John
 
jsstevens said:
It sounds like it could be my CFI. Although as far as I know he's not worked for any of the FBO's at Orlando Executiive.

On the Sundowner chekcout we were asked to expidite our landing. He acknowledged and pulled the power - told me go ahead and do the 180 power off (which we'd done a few times during my PP training). I did and it was fun. Speaking of which, I haven't done one in a long time. I should go do that.

John
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Do that in a Hershey bar wing Arrow and I hope you are about 1000 AGL when he pulls the power on downwind. You'll need it. How did the Sundowner do?
 
steingar said:
You "loose" the runway, meaning you don't see it. High wings are great until you actually want to see the runway. Are we a bit linguistically challenged today?
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Nothing like a good tight runway. Once a couple of big jets land on them, they just aren't the same.
 
MikePapa said:
Nothing like a good tight runway. Once a couple of big jets land on them, they just aren't the same.
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That's just another aviation OWT. Everyone with an ounce of experience knows the aircraft fits the runway nicely most times. Now the FBO, well, that can be an entirely different matter. Once some FBO's have that big jet, well, it's all over for us little guys...(see Signature).:goofy:
 
Clark1961 said:
That's just another aviation OWT. Everyone with an ounce of experience knows the aircraft fits the runway nicely most times. Now the FBO, well, that can be an entirely different matter. Once some FBO's have that big jet, well, it's all over for us little guys...(see Signature).:goofy:
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It's TWOO, IT'S TWOO!!!
 
Ghery said:
Do that in a Hershey bar wing Arrow and I hope you are about 1000 AGL when he pulls the power on downwind. You'll need it. How did the Sundowner do?
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I've only flow the Arrow once and it was an ILS so I really didn't get much feel for it. Soon, I hope!

As for the Sundowner, we were at TPA (1000' AGL) and less than a mile from the runway even with the numbers. We actually slipped most of the way around the turn to get down and stay slow enough. It was a blast! It doesn't glide very well.

John
 
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