My fight with the FAA

callmesven said:
For what it's worth, Horizon/Alaska lands at our airport. We have a scanner and rooftop antenna we listen to when we're working on the plane or drinking beers in the hangar. We also have a handheld we take with us when sitting at the end of the hangars at night shooting the breeze. Rarely have I ever heard the airliner converse with the tower leading me to believe they have a special frequency they use or some other type of magic. After the tower closes at 8 PM, we never hear the last flight (8:15-8:30) announce their presence. I haven't seen any close calls but I'm very aware of their silence and use an abundance of caution after 8 and know their schedule. We've always thought it's just a matter of time when this bad habit catches up to someone. I know they don't have to talk on the CTAF but they should, especially at an airport this size.
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Horizon also serves PUW, which is non-towered. Over the years virtually every time I've seen them come in, it is a straight in approach. From several miles out. Can't say I've heard them on CTAF, but I have talked to them on the frequency while they were on the ground and I was approaching for landing. Straight in one time and on downwind the second. They were holding short for me on the straight in and I told them I'd leave the pattern and come back so they could take off ahead of me when I was on the downwind. They had a schedule to keep, I didn't. Radios work. Use them. And keep your eyes outside and your head on a swivel.
 
Palmpilot said:
Is there a statute of limitations for aviation stuff? If so, I would guess that it has run out after 30 years.
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Yes -- six months after the FAA hears about it. In the OP's case, since the FAA heard about it immediately after it happened, that ended about 29-1/2 years ago. FWIW -- it's the "stale complaint" rule.
 
Palmpilot said:
I suppose people might be concerned about the title and date alerting the FAA to a violation they might not otherwise have discovered,
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That's one concern.
but does the FAA have access to that information if the pilot doesn't show them the NASA identification strip?
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Yes, the title line is not protected. If the title constitutes an admission of guilt, they can use that admission against you in proving a violation even if the sanction is waived.
 
Unregistered said:
Just came back from a soccer game and the dad of one of the players is a controller at Gray Army Airfield. I asked him what the current procedure is for a IFR flight departing Killeen. He said at both KILE and at KTPL (Temple) they have a dedicated frequency on the ground. They request that when an aircraft gets ready to depart IFR they contact Gray on that frequency. They will then hand off the plane to the enroute controller. He said, it is not manditory, but just about every pilot complies as it's another safety net.
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I think you misunderstood the controller. After the aircraft gets its IFR release from the TRACON on the ground clearance freq, the aircraft switches back to CTAF for the departure, and then contacts ATC on the assigned departure freq after clearing the airport area. See AIM 4-1-9c. This is probably also covered in the air carrier's Flight Operations Manual (FOM).

In addition, for IFR arrivals at nontowered airports, the aircraft is released to the CTAF prior to reaching the FAF, and the crew should make that switch promptly to comply with the recommended procedures for arriving at nontowered airports. See AIM 4-1-5, and I imagine this is also covered in the company's FOM.

For a fuller discussion of recommended radio practices at nontowered airports, see AC 90-42F.
 
Unregistered said:
Just came back from a soccer game and the dad of one of the players is a controller at Gray Army Airfield. I asked him what the current procedure is for a IFR flight departing Killeen. He said at both KILE and at KTPL (Temple) they have a dedicated frequency on the ground. They request that when an aircraft gets ready to depart IFR they contact Gray on that frequency. They will then hand off the plane to the enroute controller. He said, it is not manditory, but just about every pilot complies as it's another safety net.
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That doesn't change the fact that the controllers are not separating IFR from VFR traffic. Also many, if not most, uncontrolled airports do not work this way. You are not talking to a controller between the time you get your clearance and/or your release and the time you talk to them airborne. In fact many times you can't pick them up on approach or center until you are at a certain altitude. It's the same thing when landing. ATC will have you switch to CTAF at some point. If they can see targets in the area they will sometimes point them out before you go but that's not to say that they are pointing out all targets.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think you misunderstood the controller. After the aircraft gets its IFR release from the TRACON on the ground clearance freq, the aircraft switches back to CTAF for the departure, and then contacts ATC on the assigned departure freq after clearing the airport area. See AIM 4-1-9c. This is probably also covered in the air carrier's Flight Operations Manual (FOM).

In addition, for IFR arrivals at nontowered airports, the aircraft is released to the CTAF prior to reaching the FAF, and the crew should make that switch promptly to comply with the recommended procedures for arriving at nontowered airports. See AIM 4-1-5, and I imagine this is also covered in the company's FOM.

For a fuller discussion of recommended radio practices at nontowered airports, see AC 90-42F.
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Thank you for providing that. Read your profice. See you like Grummans. Before I bought 1/3 interest in a PA-24, I rented both Cheetas and Tigers on several occasions. Very fine handling aircraft.
 
Skylane81E said:
And mine is that my fiance is a cop and her pops is dead...:wink2:
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I took one vacation to go visit my in-laws in Southern California. They insisted I stay in their crappy little apartment and sleep on their lumpy sleep sofa. I had such a miserable time I didn't take another vacation for years, not until I flew myself to Oshkosh the first time.
 
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong:

For six pages we have been talking about someone that did a straight in approach to an uncontrolled field and had a near miss. Then he called the FAA, they looked into it, but nothing came of it.

By the way, this all took place 30+ years ago.

I'm going to have to start a thread about the time I rode in the back of a pickup truck in the sixties and we almost got hit by someone at an uncontrolled intersection. We called the cops, they didn't do anything, but mentioned we needed to fix our tail light.

That's at least a 10 pager, full of peoples mistakes, fear of death, and swirling with injustice brought on us by "the man".
 
That's one interpretation. Another is, that in thirty years nothing much has changed about many airline pilots being extremely lazy about CTAF reporting at pilot controlled fields while on IFR plans on both takeoff and landing. I personally encountered it as recently as December.
 
This is actually an interesting discussion.

As a part 135 charter pilot, I never fly into or out of an uncontrolled airport without using the radio for the normal callouts. I have occasionally plugged in the wrong frequency, I have occasionally been released late and had to hurry up the calls, and I am sure that I have missed a few calls. I also do a lot of straight ins, base leg entries, downwind entries and 45 to downwind entries. It all depends on the traffic, wind, direction I am coming from, and occasionally, expediency.

How many of you charter pilots do NOT use the radio at an uncontrolled airport? I just think it is an added safety benefit, rather than relying solely on Mark I eyeball.
 
Aztec Driver said:
How many of you charter pilots do NOT use the radio at an uncontrolled airport? I just think it is an added safety benefit, rather than relying solely on Mark I eyeball.
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I don't see why being on charter or not makes a difference - still should be using the radio if you have one.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I don't see why being on charter or not makes a difference - still should be using the radio if you have one.
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It shouldn't. Hence the question. I treat all flying the same. I use whatever is necessary or prudent to make it as safe as I can. There have just been several inferences that suggest many charter or airline pilots refuse to use the radio at an uncontrolled field. I find this surprising. While it may not be mandatory, it is certainly a benefit. Agreed, not foolproof, but usually better than not.
 
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alaskaflyer said:
That's one interpretation. Another is, that in thirty years nothing much has changed about many airline pilots being extremely lazy about CTAF reporting at pilot controlled fields while on IFR plans on both takeoff and landing. I personally encountered it as recently as December.
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My last 121 ops at uncontrolled airports was flying the 737-200 for USAir (still Piedmont at heart :)) in the nineties. We were careful to switch to CTAF at these places (OAJ was the most frequent for me). Perhaps the culture has changed. There's plenty of time to make the call.

Involving FAA would do nothing unless there were third party witnesses, or if the crew admitted they did something unsafe / illegal.

If a particular airline isn't making these CTAF calls, you're better off complaining to their flight ops department (call, get a fleet manager's address, then write). If the behavior doesn't change, perhaps there's a news airhead - errr - reporter who's looking for a juicy expose ... ;)
 
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For some reason, the 121 guys around here like the phrase 'all traffic in the pattern please advise' once they switch to CTAF. I guess they haven't heard yet that the internet says they shouldn't do that ;) .

As for the original post that started this thread: Don't tug the sleeping tigers tail. If you have a near-miss, file an ASRS report with an innocuous title and consider yourself lucky.
 
weilke said:
For some reason, the 121 guys around here like the phrase 'all traffic in the pattern please advise' once they switch to CTAF. I guess they haven't heard yet that the internet says they shouldn't do that ;).
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Actually, it's the FAA who says they shouldn't do that, although the FAA has posted that on the Internet.
 
callmesven said:
For what it's worth, Horizon/Alaska lands at our airport. We have a scanner and rooftop antenna we listen to when we're working on the plane or drinking beers in the hangar. We also have a handheld we take with us when sitting at the end of the hangars at night shooting the breeze. Rarely have I ever heard the airliner converse with the tower leading me to believe they have a special frequency they use or some other type of magic. After the tower closes at 8 PM, we never hear the last flight (8:15-8:30) announce their presence. I haven't seen any close calls but I'm very aware of their silence and use an abundance of caution after 8 and know their schedule. We've always thought it's just a matter of time when this bad habit catches up to someone. I know they don't have to talk on the CTAF but they should, especially at an airport this size.
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I did NOT know this and will keep this in mind if I ever land after 8pm at KSTS. I should get a copy of their regular schedule, but then again, that probably changes often as I hear they are trying to add more flights? That's scary I won't hear them on the Tower frequency or the CTAF after hours. Yikes.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I did NOT know this and will keep this in mind if I ever land after 8pm at KSTS. I should get a copy of their regular schedule, but then again, that probably changes often as I hear they are trying to add more flights? That's scary I won't hear them on the Tower frequency or the CTAF after hours. Yikes.
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Luckily, the regionals fly big chunky airplanes lit up like a christmas tree that are hard to miss from 5 miles out day or night.
 
weilke said:
Luckily, the regionals fly big chunky airplanes lit up like a christmas tree that are hard to miss from 5 miles out day or night.
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You'd be surprised how much I miss. I am getting better but I still struggle to see airports and runways, sometimes, even the ones in my local area.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
You'd be surprised how much I miss. I am getting better but I still struggle to see airports and runways, sometimes, even the ones in my local area.
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Have you been to Columbia (O22) yet? I always have trouble spotting that one.
 
Palmpilot said:
Have you been to Columbia (O22) yet? I always have trouble spotting that one.
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Nope, out of my budget (more than 50nm from me I believe). Everyone says I should go there so it is definitely on my to do list. With me as PIC, the furthest I've flown north is Little River with Mari. As a passenger, I went in a Long EZ to Booneville. Flying North so far has been a lot prettier than flying East. South is OK if it is coast line but that's often IFR.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Nope, out of my budget (more than 50nm from me I believe). Everyone says I should go there so it is definitely on my to do list. With me as PIC, the furthest I've flown north is Little River with Mari. As a passenger, I went in a Long EZ to Booneville. Flying North so far has been a lot prettier than flying East. South is OK if it is coast line but that's often IFR.
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If we ever get some rain, then the central valley will be pretty for a while. However, if/when you do make it to Columbia, I have found that it's best not to go too soon after it rains, because the trail can be muddy.
 
weilke said:
For some reason, the 121 guys around here like the phrase 'all traffic in the pattern please advise'
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Include that in your letter to flight ops. ;) I agree with FAA and the "internet" - it's lame. What if there are twenty planes in the pattern? Do they all respond simultaneously, or one after the other? :)

I guess a call like that is better than no call at all, though.
 
rotorhead1026 said:
Include that in your letter to flight ops. ;) I agree with FAA and the "internet" - it's lame. What if there are twenty planes in the pattern? Do they all respond simultaneously, or one after the other? :)
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Those are wild ans whooly places like Watertown,SD and Brainerd, MN 2 planes in the pattern is rush-hour.

I dont think there is a FAR against 'lame' terminology.
 
rotorhead1026 said:
What if there are twenty planes in the pattern? Do they all respond simultaneously, or one after the other? :)
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More likely simultaneously.

"Any traffic in the area, please advise."

"Screeeeeeeeech."

"Say again."

"Screeeeeeeeech."
 
weilke said:
Those are wild ans whooly places like Watertown,SD and Brainerd, MN 2 planes in the pattern is rush-hour.

I dont think there is a FAR against 'lame' terminology.
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I think most of the time, it doesn't do any harm, but when I hear "Any traffic in the area, please advise," I feel like saying "Any traffic in the area, please follow the AIM!"
 
Palmpilot said:
I think most of the time, it doesn't do any harm, but when I hear "Any traffic in the area, please advise," I feel like saying "Any traffic in the area, please follow the AIM!"
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Personally, I have to fight off the urge to say, "Buy low, sell high," or maybe "Plastics!"

However, I cannot count the number of times I've had to wait for some knucklehead to get through with that phrase so I can make my own position call at another airport using the same CTAF, and then lost my chance when four other folks at that airport (and sometimes others) who had already made their own announcements come back on the freq to respond to the knucklehead (often all at once so nobody can hear anything). On occasion, I've actually been down and clear of the runway before I could get a word in edgewise once that silliness starts. At that point, having never announced at all, I feel kinda silly reporting clear of a runway for which I never called entering or in the pattern.
 
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I heard a new one the other day and had a good laugh: "N999XX departing runway YY, Airport ZZ. Any traffic in the area BE ADVISED." :goofy:

Ernie
 
Ron Levy said:
Personally, I have to fight off the urge to say, "Buy low, sell high," or maybe "Plastics!"

However, I cannot count the number of times I've had to wait for some knucklehead to get through with that phrase so I can make my own position call at another airport using the same CTAF, and then lost my chance when four other folks at that airport (and sometimes others) who had already made their own announcements come back on the freq to respond to the knucklehead (often all at once so nobody can hear anything). On occasion, I've actually been down and clear of the runway before I could get a word in edgewise once that silliness starts. At that point, having never announced at all, I feel kinda silly reporting clear of a runway for which I never called entering or in the pattern.
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Holy cow's milk. Every bit of this would be my exact reply. I have surely been there and many times.

I actually did respond, "Buy low, sell high" at one non towered airport famous for ATITAPA. (KPRB ) Cricketts
 
Ron Levy said:
Personally, I have to fight off the urge to say, "Buy low, sell high," or maybe "Plastics!"

However, I cannot count the number of times I've had to wait for some knucklehead to get through with that phrase so I can make my own position call at another airport using the same CTAF, and then lost my chance when four other folks at that airport (and sometimes others) who had already made their own announcements come back on the freq to respond to the knucklehead (often all at once so nobody can hear anything). On occasion, I've actually been down and clear of the runway before I could get a word in edgewise once that silliness starts. At that point, having never announced at all, I feel kinda silly reporting clear of a runway for which I never called entering or in the pattern.
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You would't have that problem in Puget Sound these days, the Freq that is a common traffic advisory for many airports (122.8) is clear and empty for hours at a time now.
 
Heard on Unicom at an Arkansas airport, last summer...

"Hey dave
Is that you?
Are you lost again?
Yeah. and I'm just a CFI."

Stupidity personified.
 
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