My failed checkride

Meanee

Line Up and Wait
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Meanee
So, here I am, glaring at my brand new document: Notice of disapproval. According to DPE, I aced everything except turn around the point. But I feel kind of empty due to the way checkride was done. I feel that it was not really a "checkride experience"

I arrived about 1 hour earlier than scheduled, to play with GNS430 simulator and review aircraft records. Met my DPE. Helped him to get into IACRA (airport had some internet issues). And after all paperwork was done, he gave me a briefing. He told me that we will chat a little bit about aircraft, cross country, limitations, etc. After reviewing my written score (I got 92), he was fairly impressed. Not sure what candidates he sees usually. Also, I was given a full blow by blow checkride process. He told me that there will be no surprises, told me when exactly he will pull the engine, etc. Told me my first takeoff will be Short Field w. Obstacle.

So, he started oral. Asked me for airplane maintenance records, and REVIEWED THEM HIMSELF. Did not ask me a thing. I showed him my XC plan, which I've done on a computer, with color coding and all with a blank stare. When I pulled out 1st sectional, I showed him with a pencil where we are going. He told me right away that my planned altitude of 6500 feet is a bit excessive for this ride. He said planning was good and altitude was good, but we would not get a chance to get that high and I should expect 3000. But for the purpose of the plan, he said it was good thinking. Told me that he expects me to find and show 1st or 2nd checkpoint and then we will stop with XC. And mentioned that more I talk and point things out during XC, the faster it will be done.

Next, night questions. Gave me a scenario that my ammeter breaker popped and I am not far from local class C airport, at night. And he was surprised with my decision not to reset the breaker. I told him that I'd rather lose power than start fire. And if anything, I have a portable radio. Then came light gun signals, which I was not 100% sure, but answered correctly. He mentioned that we will do short field takeoff and asked what speed we will use to go over obstacle. Airport markings flash cards came next. Good thing I brushed up on ILS and APCH. And that's it. Oral over. 30 minutes. He told me to go preflight alone, and he will watch from terminal building. Oh, and he told me that there's no need to activate my flight plan...

Preflight took me a bit longer due to engine sump showing some particles. After that, loaded up in a plane. First thing he tells me "Consider me briefed" without me mentioning anything.

I made a nice liftoff, and departed on crosswind leg. Had to deviate a bit from my plan to avoid cutting through a small corner of airspace, but I planned first leg to follow a major highway. Returned to it 2 minutes later. First checkpoint was about 20nm away. 2 minutes after the flight, he points me to a small town, and asks me to identify it. I look at the map, notice how the road bends, find the same thing on the map and tell him the town name. That's it, he told me that I am done with my XC portion. So much for the Detroit sectional I had to overnight.

He took the controls, told me to grab the hood. Assigned me altitude and heading. Flew like this for a minute. Told me that I accidentally got into a cloud, and asked me to make a 180 turn. Done that. He took controls again, did a nose-low attitude and told me to recover. After that, hood portion is over. No climbs, descends, under-hood-to-VOR. No nose-high recovery.

Next, slow flight. Did a straight and level, and turn to the right and left. That's it. No altitude work. NO STALL RECOVERIES! :yikes:

Then, steep turn which I had to redo. Was too busy with altitude to realize I turned past my rollout. I was allowed a redo. Done it perfectly fine.

Then, as he told me during briefing, he pulled the throttle, lowered flaps. And told me WHERE to land. It was not very good, but passable according to him. Wind carried me too far from the field he pointed out (grass field airport), but there were plenty of straight roads and regular fields. So, I could've easily made it to the ground.

Next, comes the VOR "work". He already tuned the VOR on NAV2, and told me to take him to it. This is while Garmin was on moving map and VOR was there in plain sight. I reached for the audio panel to enable ident, but he told me that there was no need to do it. Fine, took him to the VOR.

As for GRE's, he told me he'd let me pick. Either turn around the point or the S turn. I selected a church as a point and attempted to make a turn. But 25G30 wind was a little bit too much for me. "Do you want to continue?". I figured that sure. Let me continue, and less chance for me to screw something up on a retake.

I was told to go do a full stop landing at local Class C (KABE). He already had approach dialed in. I contacted approach, got a squawk code, and was asked if I have ATIS, which I didn't. Was told to come back when I get ATIS. Got it, all ok, cleared into C, reported field in sight, got cleared to land, landed. Even though runway was 31, and wind was 340, it was still 25G30. There was a lot of crabbing on final, but landed fine. Rolled out, told tower that I wanted to go to local FBO. Back in briefing, DPE told me that he expects me to go there, chat with clearance, ground, tower, etc. When I taxied clear of runway, he looks at me and tells me "Didn't I ask you to depart right away?" and I had to remind him about the briefing. He told me that he's confident in my radio work and no need to do any of the requested tasks. I radioed the tower, got clearance to depart to home field.

He wanted to do some short/soft field landings, but I told him that I have to retake anyway, and I do not feel that short/soft field landings should be demonstrated with winds like these. He agreed. I flew over the field, joined downwind, and found myself about 600 feet above the runway on final. Called for a go-around, came back, landed.

At debriefing he said that all tasks, save for turn around the point were excellent. Poweroff landing was acceptable, but he wants to see it again. No stalls were shown. My notice of disapproval only requests to show following:

Takeoffs, Landings, Go arounds. He told me that I completed Go Around requirement already.
Ground reference Maneuvers
Emergency Operations

So, Short/Soft field landings (he already seen normal, and short field takeoff), GRM, and one engine out is all I need to show him. Yet still, I feel I got a "free ride" on a lot of things. No stalls were demonstrated. Could've done more slow flight. VOR was already tuned for me. No flight following, no activating/terminating flight plans.
 
Congratulations on getting most of it. I have no doubt you will get the balance on the next flight.

I believe a DPE check ride is really a quality control check on your CFI. Your CFI's recommendation is the real evaluation of whether you are qualified to hold the certificate you seek. It sounds like you were ready for every task in the book and evidently your CFI thought so too.

Your post reminds me of a small claims court case I had once. I was the plaintiff in a classic rear-end auto collision. It was late, the judge read my written complaint and asked the defendant if my statements were true. The defendant said yes, . . . but. The judge ruled in my favor, explaining that one of the objects of driving was to avoid running into others and the defendant had failed at that. He turned to me to ask if I had any objection to his ruling. And I so wanted to tell him of my case, my summary of the applicable law, my measurements and calculations, I had a damn fine case and I wanted to present it. But I realized if I just said "no objection" I won.

So, you are the primary evaluator on your readiness for the certificate. Your CFI is the most informed on that readiness. The DPE is almost an outside 3rd party to the event, except he has the keys to the typewriter.

Good luck on the retest. You'll do fine.

Scott
 
Thank you.

Honestly, it's not that I am worried about retaking the checkride. I am sure that if winds were not as bad, I would be able to complete required maneuvers. It's the thing that after reading all checkride stories here, seems that my DPE simply "gave" me my FUTURE certificate. I expected much more involvement into this. More complete tasks. Not skipping through something critical like stalls.

What you are saying does make a lot of sense. My CFI sent a ton of people to the DPE. So maybe to DPE, this is a formality.
 
I'm sure Ron will be around shortly to provide a better commentary, but something tells me your DPE wasn't exactly doing things by the book.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
I'm sure you'll do fine on the retake as well. The only thing I wonder is why you and your CFI didn't reschedule the ride if you felt 25G30 wouldn't work out so well for demonstrating all the manuevers. If you never practiced TAAPs in anything like those winds, the outcome was in question before you began the manuever.

In my book, it is perfectly reasonable for a new pilot to have personal minimums that wouldn't put you flying without an instructor, let alone taking a check ride, in winds that strong. Really depends on what you experienced during your training.

Jeff
 
Didn't ask to demonstrate stall recovery? That (and some of the other stuff you mention) doesn't smell right; I think they are required to have you show you can do that.

Bummer about the winds screwing up your turns around a point. Nice thing about failing a student check ride is that it doesn't stop you from flying. Just can't exercise private pilot privileges yet. Best of fortunes next time!
 
Both my private and instrument ride were like yours. The DPE only asked a fraction of the ground questions you were ready to answer.

My private maneuvers consisted of one steep turn to the right, slow flight turn to the right, one stall and a turn around a point. My engine out was combined into a normal landing. My only hiccup was my soft field was not soft or graceful like my CFI had always demand. But the DPE was satisfied.

My instrument consisted of three approaches with one being a partial panel. You will learn about that later! :D I did one loop around a hold and proceeded to unusual attitudes.

You will find that you learn alot from your checkrides if you have good DPEs like I have had. Also remember perfection is not mandatory! You can and WILL make mistakes. But if you own up to it, state why you did it and show that your correcting all is well. Also don't worry about your failure. As my last DPE said you can't fix what's behind the tail just fly what's in front of the nose.
 
I read your post and thought alot about how I would post a reply here in the public forum...suffice it to say that decorum is the better part of valor right at this moment. 'Nuff said...you can imagine my impression of your ride, the DPE's actions and the result. I must have been lucky, my rides were strenuous, demanding and covered the entire PTS, but they were also learning experiences in that the DPE worked with me in developing skills along with my demonstrating competency. Yeah yeah I know the usual response is that checkrides are not instructional but a good ride is also a learning experience.

Most importantly, what input-response have you gotten from your CFI (who you said sent "a ton of people to this DPE") so far, if any?

Your CFI should be in direct contact with the DPE, discuss the ride and then work with you about the outcome.

You'll do fine.
 
I'm sure Ron will be around shortly to provide a better commentary, but something tells me your DPE wasn't exactly doing things by the book.
Correct, and Meanee pretty well identified the deviations from the PTS, but not worth arguing about unless you had a problem trying to do your engine-out approach with the flaps already extended. If the examiner wants to make the ride easier, that's fine with me, because I know you can do it all or I wouldn't have signed you off.
 
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Live and learn. The hard part is over, brush up on the things you muffed and move forward. Your plastic will look just like all the others when it arrives in the mail. I'm guessing he may have noted the problems on the steep turn and some of that might have carried over to the bust on the turns about a point.

With respect to the TAP maneuver, I use it as the oral on every flight review. On a blank sheet of paper, I draw a cross (road intersection) in the middle with a large circle around it representing a circular flight path.
Then I draw a wind vector arrow and ask the following questions:

1. From what direction should you start the maneuver?
2. At which direction along the arc of the circle will the bank be greatest? least? somewhere between?
4. How do the bank angles in a TAP correlate to those used in flying a rectangular pattern?
3. Why should a pilot always select an intersection as the point if one is available?

Got any answers to those questions?

PS: After 30-some years of flight reviews and hundreds of pilots, nobody has answered #2 correctly.
 
Just an observation:

If NOBODY has answered the question correctly in over 30 years maybe the problem is the question or your perceived 'correct answer'.
 
Really feel bad about the result of the checkride. Your story brought up a question in my mind though, can you ask for a postponment due to weather once you've taken off on the flight part of the test?

I do agree that the checkride experience seemed a little short on experience. That being said, I think the checkride is more a means to an end. The real value is in the preparation and studying we all do to get ready.
 
Just remember that once you retake those parts you muffed you will still be a ..........PILOT!!
 
Really feel bad about the result of the checkride. Your story brought up a question in my mind though, can you ask for a postponment due to weather once you've taken off on the flight part of the test?
Absolutely yes, and you normally get credit for all your successful work up to that point.
 
Be patient and hang in there.

You will come out okay.

Terry
 
Live and learn. The hard part is over, brush up on the things you muffed and move forward. Your plastic will look just like all the others when it arrives in the mail. I'm guessing he may have noted the problems on the steep turn and some of that might have carried over to the bust on the turns about a point.

With respect to the TAP maneuver, I use it as the oral on every flight review. On a blank sheet of paper, I draw a cross (road intersection) in the middle with a large circle around it representing a circular flight path.
Then I draw a wind vector arrow and ask the following questions:

1. From what direction should you start the maneuver?
2. At which direction along the arc of the circle will the bank be greatest? least? somewhere between?
4. How do the bank angles in a TAP correlate to those used in flying a rectangular pattern?
3. Why should a pilot always select an intersection as the point if one is available?

Got any answers to those questions?

PS: After 30-some years of flight reviews and hundreds of pilots, nobody has answered #2 correctly.


BTW, I just had to try to take a stab. I say the bank will be shallowest when directly upwind and steepest when directly downwind and somewhere in between at all other points.

How'd I do? First right in 30 years or is that wrong too?
 
Sorry about the outcome, but it sounds like you generally did okay and that you'll have your ticket in a week or so.

Its hard to get the turn around a point thing down unless you practice a few times on a really windy day. Practice on a calm day just does not prepare you.

The deviations from the pts sound normal, though i am surprised you didn't stall at any point.
 
BTW, I just had to try to take a stab. I say the bank will be shallowest when directly upwind and steepest when directly downwind and somewhere in between at all other points.

How'd I do? First right in 30 years or is that wrong too?

Steepest when you have a quartering tailwind
 
No, it's based on ground speed. Ground speed is greatest with the direct tailwind.
 
So, here I am, glaring at my brand new document: Notice of disapproval. According to DPE, I aced everything except turn around the point. But I feel kind of empty due to the way checkride was done. I feel that it was not really a "checkride experience"

I arrived about 1 hour earlier than scheduled, to play with GNS430 simulator and review aircraft records. Met my DPE. Helped him to get into IACRA (airport had some internet issues). And after all paperwork was done, he gave me a briefing. He told me that we will chat a little bit about aircraft, cross country, limitations, etc. After reviewing my written score (I got 92), he was fairly impressed. Not sure what candidates he sees usually. Also, I was given a full blow by blow checkride process. He told me that there will be no surprises, told me when exactly he will pull the engine, etc. Told me my first takeoff will be Short Field w. Obstacle.

So, he started oral. Asked me for airplane maintenance records, and REVIEWED THEM HIMSELF. Did not ask me a thing. I showed him my XC plan, which I've done on a computer, with color coding and all with a blank stare. When I pulled out 1st sectional, I showed him with a pencil where we are going. He told me right away that my planned altitude of 6500 feet is a bit excessive for this ride. He said planning was good and altitude was good, but we would not get a chance to get that high and I should expect 3000. But for the purpose of the plan, he said it was good thinking. Told me that he expects me to find and show 1st or 2nd checkpoint and then we will stop with XC. And mentioned that more I talk and point things out during XC, the faster it will be done.

Next, night questions. Gave me a scenario that my ammeter breaker popped and I am not far from local class C airport, at night. And he was surprised with my decision not to reset the breaker. I told him that I'd rather lose power than start fire. And if anything, I have a portable radio. Then came light gun signals, which I was not 100% sure, but answered correctly. He mentioned that we will do short field takeoff and asked what speed we will use to go over obstacle. Airport markings flash cards came next. Good thing I brushed up on ILS and APCH. And that's it. Oral over. 30 minutes. He told me to go preflight alone, and he will watch from terminal building. Oh, and he told me that there's no need to activate my flight plan...

Preflight took me a bit longer due to engine sump showing some particles. After that, loaded up in a plane. First thing he tells me "Consider me briefed" without me mentioning anything.

I made a nice liftoff, and departed on crosswind leg. Had to deviate a bit from my plan to avoid cutting through a small corner of airspace, but I planned first leg to follow a major highway. Returned to it 2 minutes later. First checkpoint was about 20nm away. 2 minutes after the flight, he points me to a small town, and asks me to identify it. I look at the map, notice how the road bends, find the same thing on the map and tell him the town name. That's it, he told me that I am done with my XC portion. So much for the Detroit sectional I had to overnight.

He took the controls, told me to grab the hood. Assigned me altitude and heading. Flew like this for a minute. Told me that I accidentally got into a cloud, and asked me to make a 180 turn. Done that. He took controls again, did a nose-low attitude and told me to recover. After that, hood portion is over. No climbs, descends, under-hood-to-VOR. No nose-high recovery.

Next, slow flight. Did a straight and level, and turn to the right and left. That's it. No altitude work. NO STALL RECOVERIES! :yikes:

Then, steep turn which I had to redo. Was too busy with altitude to realize I turned past my rollout. I was allowed a redo. Done it perfectly fine.

Then, as he told me during briefing, he pulled the throttle, lowered flaps. And told me WHERE to land. It was not very good, but passable according to him. Wind carried me too far from the field he pointed out (grass field airport), but there were plenty of straight roads and regular fields. So, I could've easily made it to the ground.

Next, comes the VOR "work". He already tuned the VOR on NAV2, and told me to take him to it. This is while Garmin was on moving map and VOR was there in plain sight. I reached for the audio panel to enable ident, but he told me that there was no need to do it. Fine, took him to the VOR.

As for GRE's, he told me he'd let me pick. Either turn around the point or the S turn. I selected a church as a point and attempted to make a turn. But 25G30 wind was a little bit too much for me. "Do you want to continue?". I figured that sure. Let me continue, and less chance for me to screw something up on a retake.

I was told to go do a full stop landing at local Class C (KABE). He already had approach dialed in. I contacted approach, got a squawk code, and was asked if I have ATIS, which I didn't. Was told to come back when I get ATIS. Got it, all ok, cleared into C, reported field in sight, got cleared to land, landed. Even though runway was 31, and wind was 340, it was still 25G30. There was a lot of crabbing on final, but landed fine. Rolled out, told tower that I wanted to go to local FBO. Back in briefing, DPE told me that he expects me to go there, chat with clearance, ground, tower, etc. When I taxied clear of runway, he looks at me and tells me "Didn't I ask you to depart right away?" and I had to remind him about the briefing. He told me that he's confident in my radio work and no need to do any of the requested tasks. I radioed the tower, got clearance to depart to home field.

He wanted to do some short/soft field landings, but I told him that I have to retake anyway, and I do not feel that short/soft field landings should be demonstrated with winds like these. He agreed. I flew over the field, joined downwind, and found myself about 600 feet above the runway on final. Called for a go-around, came back, landed.

At debriefing he said that all tasks, save for turn around the point were excellent. Poweroff landing was acceptable, but he wants to see it again. No stalls were shown. My notice of disapproval only requests to show following:

Takeoffs, Landings, Go arounds. He told me that I completed Go Around requirement already.
Ground reference Maneuvers
Emergency Operations

So, Short/Soft field landings (he already seen normal, and short field takeoff), GRM, and one engine out is all I need to show him. Yet still, I feel I got a "free ride" on a lot of things. No stalls were demonstrated. Could've done more slow flight. VOR was already tuned for me. No flight following, no activating/terminating flight plans.

Hang in there, you're almost done. The recheck will go very quickly.

Look at it this way, you've already done more than most people ever dream of accomplishing.

Best of luck. :thumbsup:
 
Absolutely yes, and you normally get credit for all your successful work up to that point.

Interesting. I wonder how many applicants actually know that. I had some low clouds during my check ride and this option never came to mind. Seems like this could have been an option for Meanee.
 
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Interesting. I wonder how many applicants actually know that. I had some low clouds during my check ride and this option never came to mind. Seems like this could have been an option for Meannee.

This is something the CFI should have briefed the applicant on during the preparation for the exam.
 
So if you are a no go first time , do you pay twice ?

I think it depends on the examiner. When I went for my ride, he told me at the very beginning that if we had to discontinue the ride for any reason--I screw up, weather closes in, airplane breaks, I start to feel bad, I would have to pay him $75/hr for him to finish me up, over and above the $400 fee. I was going to go with an examiner who charged $300 for the ride and would retest anything we had to for free...but he didn't have an appointment before I went back to college.
 
2. At which direction along the arc of the circle will the bank be greatest? least? somewhere between?

I'll take a guess and subject myself to the spectre of public embarrassment.
 

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Don't feel bad about the failed checkride. I failed mine on the emergency landing portion.
20 years and 600hrs later I sure don't regret taking it again.

Years later I aced my instrument checkride.
 
Sorry about the check ride, I'm sure you'll get it next time.
 
Honestly, I am not upset. I do not feel bad. Life is not over. Am I disappointed? Yes. Am I all depressed? Hell no.

DPE charged me $325 for a ride. And retake is $50/hour. I was given an option to postpone, but I had a lapse of judgement, in anticipation of passing the ride and finally having something to show for thousands of dollars spent, and almost a year of weekend flying.

And honestly, I actually think it was ok for me to fail. After "Do you want to continue?" I actually felt better, less worried, more relaxed. Knowing I would have to retake, I figured that I'd rather get most of it out of the way now.

As for my bases, home base in KLDJ and KXLL. All my dual is out of KLDJ, and all my solo and checkride is out of KXLL. But at least now I know the practice area DPE likes and know my focus areas. I feel that if wind was better, I would be able to complete everything.

So no, I do not feel that I cannot do it, or that I am not good enough. Next weekend, I am going to practice my missed areas, and off to schedule another ride. DPE said that we will be done in 30 minutes on a retake.
 
The different rate after the fact seems better than say full price x 2.
 
I'll buy your explanation if you can you describe the technique necessary to put the wing tip on my Cessna 180 in the position you describe in the diagram?:wink2:
I'll take a guess and subject myself to the spectre of public embarrassment.
 
I'll buy your explanation if you can you describe the technique necessary to put the wing tip on my Cessna 180 in the position you describe in the diagram?:wink2:

It wouldn't have anything to do with pivotal altitude, would it?
 
Meanee - sorry about the busted checkride. I hope to get mine in sometime this week. I've heard that the DPE can retest those you already passed just "to be sure" so you may want to prepare yourself for anything.

Personally I would've at least attempted the short field landings. The worst that would've happened is you'd do a go around and get one more thing off your "redo" list.
 
Meanee - sorry about the busted checkride. I hope to get mine in sometime this week. I've heard that the DPE can retest those you already passed just "to be sure" so you may want to prepare yourself for anything.

Personally I would've at least attempted the short field landings. The worst that would've happened is you'd do a go around and get one more thing off your "redo" list.

They can retest on anything, even make me repeat the entire thing. But I guess I will trust the DPE when he said that only TAP and Engine Out will be re-tested. Short/Soft landings will be tested as well.

My last landing for the checkride had a decent amount of float. Could be due to a headwind I guess, but I am not sure. Speed was ok. Solo, I nailed those landings. So, I am planning retest for calmer winds and that should be it.
 
It wouldn't have anything to do with pivotal altitude, would it?

Pivotal altitude doesn't have a thing to do with turns around a point. That's for turns on a pylon, a (fun but) entirely different type of maneuver.

I'm still not entirely clear on how you busted the turns around a point, which put another way is "fly a circle over the ground".
 
I'm still not entirely clear on how you busted the turns around a point, which put another way is "fly a circle over the ground".
Didn't take into account enough for the gusts of wind. I've done ovals ALOT.
 
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