My Dad's "crash"

Clark1961 said:
So you want to compare the PC-12 to a LSA. Okay. I understand you want to bust my chops about an aircraft you have no experience in. No worries. I recognize quite well when one is showing their ass.
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I'm just sayin' this all is no reason to fly a pattern that wide.

Keep it tight.
 
Seemed like a fine landing to me. He kept the nose off as long as he could, and it appeared that he touched down on the main gear around 50 knots, and nose gear around 30 knots, which is fine. I could only speculate that the nose gear must have been weakened somehow in prior flights and finally failed on this landing. Glad all turned out fine for the student.

I have a touch more than 60 hours in a Remos GX and it flies well. It can certainly perform a short final, but I think a lot of instructors prefer students to have a longer final so they can learn to stabilize the aircraft, maintain speed control, and have more time to do so, while attempting a landing. Once confidence is established, it's easier to make tighter turns into base and the short final.
 
RVs too are not known for having super robust nose gear. I always heed the advice given to me by my transition training instructor: "Treat that sucker like it's made of balsa!" The RVs also have a ton of elevator authority (lots of surface area and throw) so you can really hold the nose wheel off for a long time after the mains touch.

Not really balsa, but here's a pic of the gear (normally covered by a fiberglass fairing). I went with the optional wooden shimmy damper that's first floxed in place and then wrapped in fiberglass tape.

 
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Other than landing on the left side of the runway, both landings looked fine to me. I've flown with a few guys that always land on the left side of the runway. I don't know why that is.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
RVs too are not known for having super robust nose gear. I always heed the advice given to me by my transition training instructor: "Treat that sucker like it's made of balsa!" The RVs also have a ton of elevator authority (lots of surface area and throw) so you can really hold the nose wheel off for a long time after the mains touch.

Not really balsa, but here's a pic of the gear (normally covered by a fiberglass fairing). I went with the optional wooden shimmy damper that's first floxed in place and then wrapped in fiberglass tape.

Click to expand...


The "Anti Splat" (yes, that's it's real name for those unfamiliar) gear stiffener is a much better option. Transfers any nose gear bending from just above the wheel pant in this picture, where the gear notoriously knuckles under as a result of coming in nose first....a real no no with rvs, to up closer to where the nose gear plugs into the motor mount. Makes the nosegear actually raise the front of the airplane up instead of allowing it to take a nosedive and pole vault over on its back if you have an issue on landing, be it rough field, poor technique or a combination.

http://antisplataero.com/products/the-nose-job-two

James331 said:
But RVs shouldn't have the third wheel in the front anyways.
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Oh boy... here we go. You assdraggers are all the same!;)
 
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Looks like another case of "light sport" class aircraft having dinky landing gear to me. I've seen way harder landings than that in the flesh, in way more expensive aircraft.
 
painless said:
You assdraggers are all the same!;)
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Like this?
anal-glands.jpg
 
rtk11 said:
Like this?
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
anal-glands.jpg
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But it feeels good!
 
pburger said:
Other than landing on the left side of the runway, both landings looked fine to me. I've flown with a few guys that always land on the left side of the runway. I don't know why that is.
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Learned to fly in Japan? :dunno:
 
Rewatching the video, I noticed that the flaps weren't all in. 30 degrees vs. 40 degrees available. Plus I usually trim the stick back. Not sure if that contributes to the issue or not, but it does explain the longer float on the first landing.
 
painless said:
The "Anti Splat" (yes, that's it's real name for those unfamiliar) gear stiffener is a much better option. Transfers any nose gear bending from just above the wheel pant in this picture, where the gear notoriously knuckles under as a result of coming in nose first....a real no no with rvs, to up closer to where the nose gear plugs into the motor mount. Makes the nosegear actually raise the front of the airplane up instead of allowing it to take a nosedive and pole vault over on its back if you have an issue on landing, be it rough field, poor technique or a combination.

http://antisplataero.com/products/the-nose-job-two
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It's debatable whether the Anti-Splat mod works as advertised. A lot of accidents were due to flips from the tiny nose wheel catching in a pot hole, etc., or the early version of the fork where the lower-riding castle nut dug into the pavement, or builders who put the steering stop on backward. Put it down in a soft dirt field and prepare to flip, no matter how configured! Land 'em nose-high and slow way down for tight turns while taxiing and it'll be fine. They're not Cessna 150s and shouldn't be treated as such.

James331 said:
But RVs shouldn't have the third wheel in the front anyways.
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Ass-draggers are soooooo 1920s!!! :D:D
 
Cause - camera data overload. The video camera built up too much data (gigs and gigs) weight putting the CG well forward of design limits. This in effect, over stressed the free castoring nose wheel and caused the nose wheel integration structure to fail. Glad your Dad was not injured but let this be a wake up call to others... the weight of a gig is real!

Data scientists are reviewing this new problem with heavy hearts.
 
abqtj said:
a b
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pburger said:
Other than landing on the left side of the runway, both landings looked fine to me. I've flown with a few guys that always land on the left side of the runway. I don't know why that is.
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In this case it probably had to do with the near-20-knot crosswind from the left. This is based on an observation of the windsock in the video. On short final, the wind is initially blocked by the trees for the first 1,000 feet or so of the runway. As the aircraft gets beyond the trees and the wind takes effect, the nose points into the wind, and the aircraft continues in that direction, away from the centerline. From my observation, there doesn't seem to be enough right rudder input by the pilot in the video, at least during the time when the airplane starts to point left. I think it may have been corrected by touchdown, as there doesn't look to be much of a side load, but it's hard to tell. In any event, to correct this would have probably required keeping the aircraft in ground effect and realigning with the centerline, so the better option is sometimes just to set it down left of centerline. Of course, I wasn't there, and I'm sure all of my own students have done similar things on solos.

Also, kudos to the pilot for his quick reaction to shut everything down and get out. I was surprised he didn't say anything when the nose gear collapsed; I certainly would have!
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
It's debatable whether the Anti-Splat mod works as advertised. A lot of accidents were due to flips from the tiny nose wheel catching in a pot hole, etc., or the early version of the fork where the lower-riding castle nut dug into the pavement, or builders who put the steering stop on backward. Put it down in a soft dirt field and prepare to flip, no matter how configured! Land 'em nose-high and slow way down for tight turns while taxiing and it'll be fine. They're not Cessna 150s and shouldn't be treated as such.
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Thread creep alert!

The ASA (Anti-Splat Aero) modifications are not intended to 'fix' wheelbarrow landings. I'm sometimes wrong, and more frequently corrected on PoA, but I'm not aware of any plane that can/should be landed nose wheel first. That's just backward.

The Nose-Job (I or II) is there to stiffen if/when the nose wheel is abruptly stopped (debris, pothole, rough grass runways, etc) where the weight of the plane will continue forward and the gear leg can roll under like a snail. Sometimes they end up on their backs. Thankfully mine did not. (My gear leg was driven up, sheared off the mounting bolt and stayed straightish... plane came to rest upright)

The stiffener should prevent the 'curling' that typically occurs ~8" above the wheel pant.

My nose leg fairing is off right now, so I can run over and take a picture of the installed modification. This was installed after the incident I described above. Not sure if it would have helped, but it couldn't have hurt.

ASA also has the Lip Skid which goes in the end of the leg tube to provide reinforcement (the steel part) and greater surface area to further reduce the likelihood of the nose gear digging in, leading to snail roll, leading to maybe flipping.
 
Harold Rutila said:
Also, kudos to the pilot for his quick reaction to shut everything down and get out. I was surprised he didn't say anything when the nose gear collapsed; I certainly would have!
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Yup. I agree that he was all business, getting everything shut down immediately -- that was good. Concerning the lack of comment when it happened -- the OP stated that he edited the audio which contained some choice words from his dad (which is to be expected!).
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
RVs too are not known for having super robust nose gear. I always heed the advice given to me by my transition training instructor: "Treat that sucker like it's made of balsa!" The RVs also have a ton of elevator authority (lots of surface area and throw) so you can really hold the nose wheel off for a long time after the mains touch.

Not really balsa, but here's a pic of the gear (normally covered by a fiberglass fairing). I went with the optional wooden shimmy damper that's first floxed in place and then wrapped in fiberglass tape.

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That wheel belongs on the other end, then you wouldn't have to worry about all. That crumpling, bending, flipping stuff. Just sayin.
 
To the OP, the landings were spot on for a lsa. He did everything right and didn't panic. Glad he is okay and hope he can get back in the air soon.

That plane is crap, glad it is inop so they can spend the money on something better.
 
I have a bunch of hours in the Remos GX. I fly couple of different years and N numbers.
Someone mentioned the Remos slips like crap. I concur.
In a hard slip the rudder will stall and the nose will whip down with little or no warning.

The landing in the video looked fine. A little wiggle back and forth trying to get the nose straight down the runway.
Also normal for a Remos. Rudder authority is not great at low speeds. It takes some practice to dial in the "feel". Not like a Tecnam or an LS-1, or Czech Sport, which have a more "linear" feel.

Just my humble opinion: There was some previous damage to that strut. You can say a lot of bad things about a Remos, but fragile isn't one of them.
Also my humble opinion: Fly any pattern you want until you are confident in your abilities.
Then continue to practice every possible variation in your pattern, because you never know what you are going to have to do to compensate for the tower, other aircraft in the pattern, or even wayward flocks of birds.
 
pburger said:
Yup. I agree that he was all business, getting everything shut down immediately -- that was good. Concerning the lack of comment when it happened -- the OP stated that he edited the audio which contained some choice words from his dad (which is to be expected!).
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I noticed that as well. Pretty professional acting, shutting off switches,, I assume he shut off radio, gas and then master, climbed out, looked it over briefly and then pulled out the phone to make a call, not take pictures.

I also noticed the stand of trees to the left of the runway. Does that have any effect on light planes landing with a left crosswind?

I can speak for myself, a person that utters nothing worse than a "what the hell was that", I might have said something a little worse.....:eek:
 
FastEddieB said:
I agree.

Worth noting is how much a video of the incident helped. Had there not been one, I probably would have been tempted to join in a chorus of speculation blaming the pilot.

As we are wont to do!
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Yes sir! Having this video will surely clear the pilot and his conscience but may help the owner with insurance or counter claims. There is nothing anyone can say now to berate the pilot, other than his pattern for some people :loco:
I personally think that somewhere down the line there was either a manufactures failure or a complilation of crummy landings that added up to a weak gear. I am just glad that the pilot got out fine and now has a great story to tell.


I did like how they were strapping it into a truck. Smart thinking.
 
FastEddieB said:
I agree.

Worth noting is how much a video of the incident helped. Had there not been one, I probably would have been tempted to join in a chorus of speculation blaming the pilot.

As we are wont to do!
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Too bad I don't live out east anymore, would have loved to check out your arrow. Always thought they would be a fun plane to fly.ngreat visibility and nice lookers.
 
Happy to take you up in my Sky Arrow any time - I need more excuses to fly!

By the way, there's nothing inherent in the Light Sport category that would necessarily lead to inadequate nose gear strength. A lighter plane landing at a lower speed does not need the same structural strength as a heavier, faster plane. But it should be up to the task at hand, and most are.

Crosswinds were mentioned. Not a factor in this accident, but Prof. Shuch has a seminar called "Stepping UP to Light Sport". One takeaway is that pilots new to Light Sport need to "recalibrate" their comfort level with crosswinds. A 16G22 crosswind might be a relative piece of cake in a Cirrus or Bonanza or Mooney, let's say, touching down at 60 kts or so. That same crosswind in a Light Sport touching down at closer to 40 kts could be a real handful - and the overall nature of Light Sport landing accidents confirms the danger.
 
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