My (bad) luck continues predictably

azure

azure

Final Approach
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azure
So I drove to Marine City this morning to retake my instrument written, only to find that they couldn't give me the test because their internet connection went down. They didn't call me to save me the trip because it just happened 10 minutes before I drove up. I waited 3 hours as their connection came back up, then went down again, and finally gave up for the day and rescheduled for tomorrow.

I figured the day wouldn't be a total waste though because the wx was perfect, so I could at least fly my airplane for the first time in a week, right?

Wrong.

As soon as I looked under the airplane I knew something was wrong. There was a new puddle on the hangar floor directly under the pilot's seat. It turned out to have a blue cast to it: the fuel sump drain tube was drip-dripping slowly but steadily. More $$ and more delay.

The only bright side to the day was that my first CFI, who happens also to be a double-I, said that he will be willing to fly with me and sign me off as soon as he is convinced I am flying within PTS, which will let me take the checkride with the one DPE who my CFI only dislikes for personal reasons. But now without an airplane for who knows how long, my chances for finishing this summer are likely down to zero.

:(
 
Sorry to hear. It seems your determination is there, however. Good luck to you tomorrow when you do take the written!
 
Fuel sump is about $10, and if you don't mind getting a bit blue, you can replace it yourself.

Wait - you said it was the tube. Don't know anything about that (cherokee drain is direct into the tank.
 
It's coming out the tube, yeah. There has to be a valve up there that's letting some fuel through. It could be as simple as an o-ring or a washer. But I have no idea how to even access it. Also I doubt it's something that falls under preventative mx.

And Kim, thanks. I shouldn't say this but I'm not worried about passing the written. I've taken 6 practice exams and the worst I've done on any of them is one wrong. The real exam will probably have a few that the FAA doesn't release, but you can pass with as many as 18 wrong. I'm more worried that their internet will still be down tomorrow. I've already paid CATS and Marine City is the only CATS center within driving distance.
 
azure said:
It's coming out the tube, yeah. There has to be a valve up there that's letting some fuel through. It could be as simple as an o-ring or a washer. But I have no idea how to even access it. Also I doubt it's something that falls under preventative mx.

And Kim, thanks. I shouldn't say this but I'm not worried about passing the written. I've taken 6 practice exams and the worst I've done on any of them is one wrong. The real exam will probably have a few that the FAA doesn't release, but you can pass with as many as 18 wrong. I'm more worried that their internet will still be down tomorrow. I've already paid CATS and Marine City is the only CATS center within driving distance.
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I heard they changed the test, so I'm sure a lot of people here will be interested to see your report on how the real test compared with your practice ones.
 
azure said:
It's coming out the tube, yeah. There has to be a valve up there that's letting some fuel through. It could be as simple as an o-ring or a washer. But I have no idea how to even access it. Also I doubt it's something that falls under preventative mx.

And Kim, thanks. I shouldn't say this but I'm not worried about passing the written. I've taken 6 practice exams and the worst I've done on any of them is one wrong. The real exam will probably have a few that the FAA doesn't release, but you can pass with as many as 18 wrong. I'm more worried that their internet will still be down tomorrow. I've already paid CATS and Marine City is the only CATS center within driving distance.
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A Cherokee? I just went through the tanks on the one I sold about a month ago. Not much to it.. If you have to remove the tanks, go ahead and do SB1006 if it hasn't been done in a while. the tube is just a vent at the top of the tank, nothing fancy, then there's a fuel sender and one fuel line... Simple stuff. Oh and don't try to reuse tank screws, they're structural. call Airward.
 
Before today? Last time I flew, which was last Tuesday. Also several times today trying to figure out if the fuel was seeping around the tube or coming out through it (outside of tube had a blue stain as well, but there was some gunk on it and I think it's very likely that fuel was seeping up through the gunk by capillary action).

I'm not sure what you're driving at. The valve is as closed as I can get it with the lever.
 
Sometimes a pebble or other FOD will lodge between the seal and seat of the valve, thereby creating the channel through which the fuel can flow. If you hold the valve fully open for a bit, the FOD may flush out. It's worth a try.

azure said:
Before today? Last time I flew, which was last Tuesday. Also several times today trying to figure out if the fuel was seeping around the tube or coming out through it (outside of tube had a blue stain as well, but there was some gunk on it and I think it's very likely that fuel was seeping up through the gunk by capillary action).

I'm not sure what you're driving at. The valve is as closed as I can get it with the lever.
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Sorry to hear that things are not going in your favor. Hopefully the tides will turn for you soon.
 
wabower said:
Sometimes a pebble or other FOD will lodge between the seal and seat of the valve, thereby creating the channel through which the fuel can flow. If you hold the valve fully open for a bit, the FOD may flush out. It's worth a try.
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Ah, gotcha! Well if it's that my mechanic should find it tonight. He called me back and says he will have a look at it. But I did hold the valve open for a few seconds first thing as per my usual pre-flight sumping, before I was 100% certain that something was wrong. That was in the semi-dark, before opening the hangar door, and when I couldn't actually see the dripping. BTW there are actually two separate drain tubes operated by the same handle and I also opened the valve a few times to determine which one or both was dripping. Turns out it was only the one closer to the pilot's door.
 
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Azure perhaps you are confusing bad luck with whining ? ;)
 
So y'all are saying that this sticker might come in handy?

4b94241c-35b7-b68d.jpg
 
if you didn't have bad luck you wouldn't have any luck at all
 
Okay, maybe I am just whining. Wouldn't be the first time. It's hard for me to be objective when I'm being frustrated right and left.

So my mechanic looked at my drain tube last night and this morning, he explained that the two tubes are from different tanks. The one that's leaking is connected to the left tank. The valve leading to it has o-rings and he suspects either one is leaky, or as Wayne suggested some FOD got in there and is propping the valve partially open. Unfortunately there is no way to shut off the fuel flowing into the space above the valve, so he needs me to fly it to within a few gallons of dry before he can work on it. I asked him whether there was a danger of the leak becoming worse, even catastrophic, if the o-ring let go completely. He assured me that the worst that could happen in that case is a steady loss of 2 gph or so. Today there are storms coming through and tomorrow it's supposed to be windy. So I guess I'm going to take a few short trips on Saturday and keep a close watch on the drip rate every time I stop, and fuel plan conservatively (especially if I see it worsen any). Then assuming it stays the same, I will go up on Sunday with my new, finish-up CFII (who was also my very first primary CFI) and do a mock checkride.

Also, we have to log time for reviewing my mistakes on the written I took today. More on that in the IFR forum.
 
Azure:
May be it will make you feel better. I don't consider myself unlucky but you know life happens.

Here is my story. I was been working on my CFI for the past few years in and out. Finally time came for me to take the practical exam when the airplane I was trained in (Piper Arrow) crashed and totaled (by some CPL candidate ). I quickly had to switch to Mooney M20J which was not a perfect match for the purpose (Imagine best gliding speed 101 mph and power off 180 :mad2:)

OK finally day of practical examination came. I spent with FAA inspector 6and 1/2 hours on the ground and 2 hours in the air. I failed at the very end of the check ride because (according to FAA inspector) I got little bit less that 500 ft AGL over some property in the middle of nowhere during eight on pylons while re-positioning... So I got 60 days to finish up my exam with another attempt.

Month lapsed fairly quick- bad weather and FAA inspector availability everything piled up into multiple "no goes" and cancellations. Meanwhile my two written exams had expired (yes I was so stupid to take them early on). Within a week I had to re-take FOI and Knowledge exams again. No problem!

Everything seemed gotta be OK until my FAA inspector notified me that he was going for the recurring training and there is no one at FSDO available to take over. Meaning there was no one to finish me up with 60 days from the point of failure, and I retaking the whole practical exam is imminent.

So let me summarize the whole experience for you.
1 crashed airplane
2 re-taken written exams
1 failed CFI check ride
1 re-taken practical examination

Ok so after about 70 days since I failed my CFI check ride I passed my second attempt with bells and whistles. And you know what I still didn't consider myself unlucky? Why? Because it made me a better pilot :yesnod: :lol:

So don't get discouraged to whatever obstacles came your way. They are making you stronger... "if they don't kill you" (c) Rigged4Flight :lol::rofl:
 
I don't think she is whining. If you know the history of the obstacles she has encountered over the past couple of years, you would understand :).

Hang in there!!
 
I think I'm whining. I do get depressed over projects that don't complete on schedule. No, not clinically. It just bugs me. Especially this since it could have been avoided if I hadn't put so much trust in my CFII's word.

The fuel reservoir valve is not going to be trivial. My fuel selector valve is allowing some crossfeeding as well. Yesterday I got cold feet about flying the airplane any more without any reliable way to gauge how much fuel I had already lost, so some pilots around the airport helped me drain the left tank into some buckets. I left the selector valve on left and this morning my mechanic found some fuel in the left tank. So he's going to have to drain the right tank too.

From CFO I gather that if it was an O-ring that was leaking the leak would be on the upper end coming around the drain tube, not through it. So it's likely the plunger assembly. Mech will be calling the salvage yards this afternoon but is hoping he can rebuild it, but most likely will have to replace it ($260 from Cessna, $236 from McFarlane if nothing available through salvage, which is highly likely).

It's Aug 20. Classes start the 29th. At first it's lectures only, so I will have a little wiggle room to still do the checkride in the week after Labor Day. After that it's the full grind, and scheduling anything will be a nightmare until Christmas at the earliest (and then there's the delightful Michigan winter weather to deal with).

This is not likely to happen now this summer but there's still a chance.
 
I don't know why he told you to fly it to drain it anyway... Just drain and fix. Seemed a bit weird to me when you posted it.
 
Probably to save me the cost of all the wasted fuel, and him the hassle of disposing of it. The airport guys insisted it was safe to filter and pour back in (and I assume it should be, as long as you DO filter it), but maybe there are legal reasons why he doesn't want to be involved with that. I'll have to ask him.
 
Now I'm not sure, other than to save himself the hassle of draining it. His insurance doesn't allow him to pour it back into the tanks, that's all.

And it was the cone seal on the plunger assembly. I watched him take it apart and flick pieces of the seal at me from inside the tee. We ordered a new plunger from McFarlane, UPS overnight. But we're not sure whether it will get here by tomorrow morning or whether it will be Wednesday.

Now I just have to pray he doesn't disappear on me for the rest of the week.
 
My concern was that he wasn't choosing the best course for your safety, just his convenience.

Flying with a known fuel leak is kinda on my "Why the hell would I ever do that if I didn't have to?" list. It's my butt up there, not the mechanic's.
 
We talked about the worst case scenario, which he said would be a 2 gph loss through the reservoir drain if the seal let loose completely. I wasn't worried about a catastrophic fuel leak, but rather that once I could no longer see the fuel level by looking, I might be taking off with less fuel than I thought I had because I don't have a fuel dipstick. Mech tried to estimate the loss rate based on the amount of fuel in the bucket he put under the leak, but I argued that evaporation made that an underestimate, and possibly a significant one. After draining the tanks I concluded that I'd lost about 7 gallons over the last week, about twice as much as he'd estimated.

Bottom line is, I trust that he wouldn't recommend I do something massively unsafe just to save himself some trouble. That doesn't mean he's right though, and if he's wrong it's not his butt on the line.
 
denverpilot said:
My concern was that he wasn't choosing the best course for your safety, just his convenience.

Flying with a known fuel leak is kinda on my "Why the hell would I ever do that if I didn't have to?" list. It's my butt up there, not the mechanic's.
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The amount a drain can leak even with no o-ringin it is minimal. More than likely is he was trying to save her some money. You will not find a shop that will put the fuel back in the plane due to liability reasons. If it's coming out a tube in the belly from a single isolatable tank, the risk is minimal to non existent, just keep enough fuel in the other tank and leave it off. When the leaky side runs dry switch tanks and head on home, no worries.
 
Move the plane and the offloaded fuel out of the mechanics shop and onto the ramp..Pump or drain the offloaded fuel into a 5 gallon can - at a time - and pour it back into the plane yourself (unless you are in a wheelchair or some such)... Use a coffee filter paper in the funnel to catch any sediment...
Gee, if there was a leaking coffee thermos no one would give a second thought to just pouring it into another container it as opposed to throwing it away... This is not rocket science...
And yes, leaking fuel valves are expensive and a pain in the butt - been there, done that, got the tee shirt...

So, what is your major at the university?
And, I am up in the Saginaw area... If you feel the need for an expensive hamburger my buddy Ed and I can meet up with you at an airport...

cheers,
denny-o
 
rainsux said:
> wasted fuel

No fuel truck at VLL anymore? Or, arrange to have it put bank into the tank farm.
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That will not/can not happen due to contamination possibility issues and the chain of liability, it would void the insurance would it be found out. We used to pour it in a 55 gallon drum from which I would pump it into my plane at "own risk" after my boss told me "Here's where we put the fuel we drain out of planes, don't put it in your plane. BTW, I don't track the level of the drum."
 
Dr. O said:
Gee, if there was a leaking coffee thermos no one would give a second thought to just pouring it into another container it as opposed to throwing it away... This is not rocket science...
And yes, leaking fuel valves are expensive and a pain in the butt - been there, done that, got the tee shirt...

So, what is your major at the university?
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What makes you think I haven't already thought about all that?

Read the previous post: my mech can't do it HIMSELF due to insurance limitations. No reason I can't.

Geez. :mad:
 
rainsux said:
> wasted fuel

No fuel truck at VLL anymore? Or, arrange to have it put bank into the tank farm.
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Non-starter. Even if they were willing, they cannot. And, I don't buy from them so they have no idea of the original source, nor what the inside of my tanks are like.

Come on. Several people around the airport have filters designed for fuel. This is really a non-issue. Mech probably assumed I wouldn't want to be bothered with reloading the fuel. But for $150 worth of fuel, it's a no-brainer.
 
azure said:
What makes you think I haven't already thought about all that?

Read the previous post: my mech can't do it HIMSELF due to insurance limitations. No reason I can't.

Geez. :mad:
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Yep, you can get a hose and a couple of gas cans and syphon it out for yourself, no worries.
 
> Non-starter. Even if they were willing, they cannot.

Done routinely at other shops nearby VLL.

When I had this problem, my favorite fuel seller helped me drain everything
back into his truck ... and did not charge for the assistance.

Please consider [re]calibrating your "picker." You seem to choose too many
folks who specialize in, "No."
 
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Liz,

In the event that you try to drain the fuel yourself, it ain't as simple as some think. It is VERY important to properly ground/bond the plane and the can(s). Also important to have big extinguishers at the ready. JJ at PTK nearly burned his business down within the past year over this exact matter.

Thankfully, PTK has CFR trucks on-field and they were on-scene in ~90 secs. TFD is volunteer, they probably couldn't find VLL T-hangars in < 20 mins.
 
rainsux said:
Liz,

In the event that you try to drain the fuel yourself, it ain't as simple as some think. It is VERY important to properly ground/bond the plane and the can(s). Also important to have big extinguishers at the ready. JJ at PTK nearly burned his business down within the past year over this exact matter.

Thankfully, PTK has CFR trucks on-field and they were on-scene in ~90 secs. TFD is volunteer, they probably couldn't find VLL T-hangars in < 20 mins.
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IMO the most effective measure to prevent a fire when draining an airplane's fuel tanks is providing sufficient ventilation that the fuel vapors cannot accumulate in the area. Grounding the plane is a good idea but it's kinda difficult to ground a plastic container although setting it on a concrete, asphalt, or dirt floor ought to help prevent charge buildup.
 
Liz, I've been quietly reading about your trials and travails. But it's VERY clear to me that you WILL prevail.

Hang in there.
 
bbchien said:
Liz, I've been quietly reading about your trials and travails. But it's VERY clear to me that you WILL prevail.

Hang in there.
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+1, I couldn't have said it any better.
 
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