Multi raiting

JBrown243

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
201
Location
San Jose, CA
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Display name:
Jason
Im thinking of pursuing my Multi and I Have 3 planes all priced about the same around me. The question is what are the benefits and drawbacks from each type, which should I choose?

They are
Beech Dutchess
Piper Seminole
Diamond Twinstar
 
Don't you have an American Flyers in San Jose? I'm pretty sure they use a 310.
 
Really doesn't matter between the Duchess and the Seminole (or the 310 Henning mentioned, for that matter) -- similar enough in the controls and responses involved in multiengine operations. Focus on the school itself, the quality of both training and maintenance, rather than the type of aircraft they fly.

The TwinStar is an entirely different situation, with electronic ignition and single-lever power control. As a result, the procedures used to control the engines during normal operations, and verify which engine has failed and feather/shutdown the failed engine are completely different -- much more like a jet than a piston twin. This will leave you unprepared for the both normal and emergency procedures to operate a "normal" twin-engine piston-powered airplane -- you would have the Law of Primacy working against you in such future flying. As such, unless you're only planning to fly single-lever twins in the foreseeable future, I'd suggest avoiding the TwinStar.
 
The TwinStar is an entirely different situation, with electronic ignition and single-lever power control. As a result, the procedures used to control the engines during normal operations, and verify which engine has failed and feather/shutdown the failed engine are completely different -- much more like a jet than a piston twin. This will leave you unprepared for the both normal and emergency procedures to operate a "normal" twin-engine piston-powered airplane -- you would have the Law of Primacy working against you in such future flying. As such, unless you're only planning to fly single-lever twins in the foreseeable future, I'd suggest avoiding the TwinStar.

Ron, that isn't necessarily true. There are 6 lever DA42's out there, so it would depend on what particular model they have at his local place.
 
Which TwinStar are you considering?
 
Ron, that isn't necessarily true. There are 6 lever DA42's out there, so it would depend on what particular model they have at his local place.

Yeah he can get the L360 model with 6 levels which would be better for training, however it's single engine performance sucks (around 6K). While the NG can climb to 12K with a single engine, and the VI even higher.
 
I would do the Seminole or Duchess simply because it will be closer to the majority of twins you will likely fly.

Unless you're going to fly a TwinStar, in which case do your rating in it.
 
Ron, that isn't necessarily true. There are 6 lever DA42's out there, so it would depend on what particular model they have at his local place.
Good point -- if it's one of the handful of Lycoming gasoline engine DA42's (the "L360" model), the issue would not arise. Not sure how many of each of the three different engined models are out there, but I think the vast majority are single-lever power control, so do check to be sure before you fork over any money or otherwise commit to any school. As for the single-engine climb issues above 6000 feet with the L360 model, that's not a barrier to training unless you're in Denver or Salt Lake City or the like, and it will better prepare you for the realities of flying most light piston twins.
 
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As others have said, stay away from the single-lever twins.

As for the BE76 vs. PA44, I personally like the Duchess better, but that's just comparing the few I had available. It just felt better to me...
 
By the way, I'd like to point out that I got my ME (Private and Commercial) in the DA42 NG (single level) and I turned out just fine.

After that I did some training with Dr. Bruise in his Seneca to make sure I'll be "okay" flying with 6 levels, wasn't a problem at all.
 
Did mine in a duchess,liked it ,very gentle in engine out handling.
 
Good point -- if it's one of the handful of Lycoming gasoline engine DA42's (the "L360" model), the issue would not arise. Not sure how many of each of the three different engined models are out there, but I think the vast majority are single-lever power control, so do check to be sure before you fork over any money or otherwise commit to any school. As for the single-engine climb issues above 6000 feet with the L360 model, that's not a barrier to training unless you're in Denver or Salt Lake City or the like, and it will better prepare you for the realities of flying most light piston twins.

Based on my experience the L360s aren't too common. Diamond just used the IO-360 during the time between not being able to use Thielert engines any more and the Austro not being ready for production yet.

Looks like Jason is in San Jose, CA. So he does have some mountains to the east which may require better performance.
 
The problem with low performance twins is their lack of bite. If you're just collecting ratings, use the easiest possible, if you want to prepare for heavier, more powerful twins, train in one. That's why AF uses 310s.
 
By the way, I'd like to point out that I got my ME (Private and Commercial) in the DA42 NG (single level) and I turned out just fine.

After that I did some training with Dr. Bruise in his Seneca to make sure I'll be "okay" flying with 6 levels, wasn't a problem at all.

Right, but didn't you also have a DA42 for a while?
 
Well it wasn't mine, but yeah, I flew it for 2.5 years.

So that makes sense. If you were planning on getting your multi rating and then jumping straight into your 421, then it'd probably make more sense to have done your multi rating in a 310 or something with more similarities.

By the way, are you a TTCF member? I've found it to be really worthwhile.
 
Having flown the Seminole and Duchess in training. The Duchess seemed to have better single engine performance. But really the bigger thing is fly whichever one has unfeathering accumulators. Trying to restart an engine with the starter was never much fun in the one I flew without them.
 
Based on my experience the L360s aren't too common. Diamond just used the IO-360 during the time between not being able to use Thielert engines any more and the Austro not being ready for production yet.

Looks like Jason is in San Jose, CA. So he does have some mountains to the east which may require better performance.
Considering most ME additional rating training is conducted within about 15 miles of the airport, I don't think that will be a issue.
 
Having flown the Seminole and Duchess in training. The Duchess seemed to have better single engine performance. But really the bigger thing is fly whichever one has unfeathering accumulators. Trying to restart an engine with the starter was never much fun in the one I flew without them.
No fun getting up there on the test, doing the shutdown drill, and then having to discontinue the test and land incomplete because the prop wouldn't come out of feather, and you will have to do that at least once in training and on the practical test.
 
No fun getting up there on the test, doing the shutdown drill, and then having to discontinue the test and land incomplete because the prop wouldn't come out of feather, and you will have to do that at least once in training and on the practical test.
Why would you have to disconinue? If you landed anyway with thte engine shut-down, doesn't that fulfill what the examiner needs to see? But I am glad my examiner heeded my advice to not shut down my right engine, which I knew had a bad accumulator and starter since I had to land twice with it completely dead...
 
So that makes sense. If you were planning on getting your multi rating and then jumping straight into your 421, then it'd probably make more sense to have done your multi rating in a 310 or something with more similarities.

Very true.


By the way, are you a TTCF member? I've found it to be really worthwhile.

Actually, no, I'm not. I usually end up registering when I need to find out something and so far POA worked fine for that purpose.
If I do have some problem though I'll be sure to ask the guys on TTCF.
 
Considering most ME additional rating training is conducted within about 15 miles of the airport, I don't think that will be a issue.

Right, but what's going to happen next? He's not going to get his multi engine add-on and go back to renting his single. I assume he'll spend some time doing some long trips in that twin for the fun of it.
 
Why would you have to disconinue? If you landed anyway with thte engine shut-down, doesn't that fulfill what the examiner needs to see?
If every one of the required Tasks were complete except that one, then yes, I suppose it could work. But usually, that won't be the sequence of events. Otherwise, they'd have to do a bunch of airwork, then do all the takeoffs and landings (no examiner is going to be happy doing the single-engine instrument approach or engine failure after liftoff until s/he's seen you operate one-engine-inop at a safe altitude), then climb back up above 3000 AGL (or higher, depending on what the POH says about safe single engine training altitude), do the shutdown, and descend for the single-engine landing. That's just not the sort of plan of action I've ever seen for a multiengine additional rating ride.
 
Right, but what's going to happen next? He's not going to get his multi engine add-on and go back to renting his single. I assume he'll spend some time doing some long trips in that twin for the fun of it.
Most ME trainees are getting the rating to fill a square and then move on to some ME flying job. There aren't that many doing it so they can rent the twin they trained on. So, as was stated above, if you're going to be flying a single-lever TwinStar (either rented or purchased) after you get the rating, that's a good choice, but not otherwise.
 
Most ME trainees are getting the rating to fill a square and then move on to some ME flying job. There aren't that many doing it so they can rent the twin they trained on. So, as was stated above, if you're going to be flying a single-lever TwinStar (either rented or purchased) after you get the rating, that's a good choice, but not otherwise.

Unless that multi flying job is in an RJ, that, the glass panel, and the fuel specifics were why they were popular with some of the 'academy programs'.
 
Most ME trainees are getting the rating to fill a square and then move on to some ME flying job. There aren't that many doing it so they can rent the twin they trained on. So, as was stated above, if you're going to be flying a single-lever TwinStar (either rented or purchased) after you get the rating, that's a good choice, but not otherwise.
While it is true that most folks getting a ME rating are doing it to move on to a professional flying job, very few are going to get hired with a wet multi-ticket and 10 hrs or so of twin time. Usually have to build some ME time first in order to meet the hiring mins.

So, assuming that is the reason behind the desire to get the rating, I think the question of which airplane depends a bit on what the person intends to do while building the time. If hours in the logbook are the only goal, then I'd say Duchess or Seminole - whichever is cheaper.

If you plan to use the airplane for trips, say hauling friends or family around while building that time, I'd go for the Duchess. Pretty decent performance for a trainer type twin and plenty of useful load and baggage space compared to the Seminole. In my 150 hrs or so in the Duchess, I learned to really appreciate the airplane. I'm sure by posting this I am guaranteed to flush out someone who disagrees, but I have never heard anyone talk about a Seminole as anything other than a means to an end. You just don't hear folks talk affectionately about PA44s.
 
Thanks for all the great information. As speculated the end result is building hours for a career later on. Both the Duchess and the Seminole rent for the same price and there are 2 of each available. I think I will choose the Duchess based on some of what has been discussed. Also I like that it has two doors and one of the rentals has the GTN 750. Thanks for the help in the decision.
 
Actually, no, I'm not. I usually end up registering when I need to find out something and so far POA worked fine for that purpose.
If I do have some problem though I'll be sure to ask the guys on TTCF.

There's a membership fee, which kept me from joining for the first year or two. However now that I've been on there close to 2 years, I wish I'd joined sooner.
 
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