Multi Engine Add On - Part 61 vs. Part 141

mulligan

mulligan

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Mulligan
Since I am currently comfortable with the G1000, I was looking for a flight school with a multi engine with G1000. Found a school with a DA42 that looks like will fit the bill.

In discussing my training options with the head of their program he mentioned there are two options.

# 1 - Fly Part 61 which would be 8-10 hours followed by a check ride with a DPE that can take 2-3 weeks to find and schedule.

# 2 - Fly Part 141 which would be 15 hours and contain more ground school but would be graduated with multi/ir add on at completion of course and he performs the "check ride"

Anyone with any knowledge and or experience with this? The person I spoke with sounded really nice and helpful and I think that type of a setting would be much more enjoyable and less stressful for me, even though it is a few hours more which means more money. Sounds like better training and a less stressful checkride!!

I must be missing something :)
 
I did mine part 61 at one of those weekend crash courses. Do whatever works best for your schedule. Are you doing a private add on or commercial add on?
 
jordane93 said:
I did mine part 61 at one of those weekend crash courses. Do whatever works best for your schedule. Are you doing a private add on or commercial add on?
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Private add on. My flight school here would be happy to accelerate me through in a Part 61 but I've seen the maintenance issues with their plane and, well, NFW
 
Brad Z said:
What is your objective?
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Just to get the multi/ir add on for PPL. Then I am selling the 206 and will be buying a multi engine plane once I find the right fit for our mission. I will get lots of training in whatever I buy my only goal is to get he multi/ir add on before I put my plane up for sale because if for some reason I struggle with that, then there is no need for me to sell!! SO basically just trying to knock it our before the REAL training begins.
 
mulligan said:
Private add on. My flight school here would be happy to accelerate me through in a Part 61 but I've seen the maintenance issues with their plane and, well, NFW
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I see. If you are in no rush I'd go with the school you've been training with.
 
mulligan said:
Just to get the multi/ir add on for PPL. Then I am selling the 206 and will be buying a multi engine plane once I find the right fit for our mission. I will get lots of training in whatever I buy my only goal is to get he multi/ir add on before I put my plane up for sale because if for some reason I struggle with that, then there is no need for me to sell!! SO basically just trying to knock it our before the REAL training begins.
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Since you'll need considerable time in type on the new plane for insurance requirements, wouldn't it make more sense to do the training once you have the twin? I'm not sure of the wisdom of doing instrument training in a rental twin when you have a plane now that you can do the training in.
 
Brad Z said:
Since you'll need considerable time in type on the new plane for insurance requirements, wouldn't it make more sense to do the training once you have the twin? I'm not sure of the wisdom of doing instrument training in a rental twin when you have a plane now that you can do the training in.
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I'm not doing instrument training in a multi. I already have instrument. I just have to do a single engine approach under the hood to extend the current rating to the multi add on.
 
OK all. The question was only can a 141 program sign you off vs a 61 program which requires a DPE signoff. All the other stuff is noise. I guess I was surprised to learn that a DPE is not required for sign-off for a 141 multi/ir add on if the program is approved and you pass the program and stage checks.
 
mulligan said:
I'm not doing instrument training in a multi. I already have instrument. I just have to do a single engine approach under the hood to extend the current rating to the multi add on.
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I saw "IFR student" in your signature and you said "multi/IR add on for option #2. If you're already instrument rated wouldn't you fly the OEI approach in either case so you wouldn't have a restriction?

Either way, if you're planning on buying a twin, why not do the training in the airplane you purchase? It's a good way to learn the systems.

If you just want the ticket in your pocket before you go shopping, why not just find a Seminole with a Garmin 430/530? The focus of the training is on flying with one engine, not IFR procedures. If you have an issue with the flight school you've been using, there are always more out there.
 
mulligan said:
OK all. The question was only can a 141 program sign you off vs a 61 program which requires a DPE signoff. All the other stuff is noise. I guess I was surprised to learn that a DPE is not required for sign-off for a 141 multi/ir add on if the program is approved and you pass the program and stage checks.
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You're still going to take a check ride but it will be all done with an in house examiner. Either way, you're not bypassing a check ride.
 
Brad Z said:
I saw "IFR student" in your signature and you said "multi/IR add on for option #2. If you're already instrument rated wouldn't you fly the OEI approach in either case so you wouldn't have a restriction?

Either way, if you're planning on buying a twin, why not do the training in the airplane you purchase? It's a good way to learn the systems.

If you just want the ticket in your pocket before you go shopping, why not just find a Seminole with a Garmin 430/530? The focus of the training is on flying with one engine, not IFR procedures. If you have an issue with the flight school you've been using, there are always more out there.
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Your missing the question. It is not about the IR or the rating or the plane. Its about the 141 vs the 61 and the 141 upon completion vs the 61 check ride.

Also, you missed the (Not any more! Woohooooo) after the IFR Student!!

But I do appreciate the replies, im just trying to get back to the focus of the question.
 
mulligan said:
OK all. The question was only can a 141 program sign you off vs a 61 program which requires a DPE signoff. All the other stuff is noise. I guess I was surprised to learn that a DPE is not required for sign-off for a 141 multi/ir add on if the program is approved and you pass the program and stage checks.
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That's not the question you asked. A part 141 flight school uses a FAA approved curriculum. Schools often have authorization authority so you fly with the chief instructor instead of using an outside DPE. Aside from that, it's the same planes and the same instructors. No reason you couldn't use a 141 syllabus while training under 61 (aside from not being able to take advantage of lower aeronautical experience requirements, which is not the case in a multi-engine add-on).
 
jordane93 said:
You're still going to take a check ride but it will be all done with an in house examiner. Either way, you're not bypassing a check ride.
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I know there is still a check ride. But I like the idea of the in house examiner part because I will get opportunities to get to know him along the way and will also have good insight from the instructors on things to look for in addition to the standard knowledge. It never hurts to not only fly proficiently but to also have some insight on top of that!!
 
Did my initial multi, which was also my intial ATP, in a weekend at ATP Inc. Pt61

It's really just a weekend thing, you should be able to book your 2 days training and DPE well in advance.

If you can fly to PTS, doesn't matter who you take the ride with.

Now as far as the check ride, well if the guy was basically giving you the impression that if you sifn with up with him 141, fly more hours, he'll basically just pass you, like the 141 check ride with him was just a formality, well I would run far away, last thing you need is to have your MEL yanked years later for retesting because this dude was signing everyone and their grandmothers off.
 
James331 said:
...last thing you need is to have your MEL yanked years later for retesting because this dude was signing everyone and their grandmothers off.
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Happens with DPEs also. Vegas FSDO yanked all ratings handed out by one of theirs a few years back. Choice was a 709 ride with a Fed or go get a new rating. Most upgraded. Buddy of mine added a seaplane rating to not lose his Private certificate.
 
I concur with previous posters in that 141 vs. 61 for the Multi Engine won't make a big difference for you, check-ride wise, but it is nice to get to know the examiner before the practical test, whether the examiner is internal or external to the school (141/61). Many DPEs don't mind spending some time on the phone or in person with a potential applicant prior to the check ride in any case, so that could be an option worth exploring in the Part 61 environment, if it might help to get comfortable prior to the big day.

If you think it might be useful, there is an online, video-based Multi Engine Ground School at www.PilotProficient.com. It can help with getting prepped for the training and/or check ride, and is offered on a Choose Your Own Pricing basis.

Good luck with your training!
 
I'm doing my multi add-on part 61. There is no minimum hour requirement to take the checkride. 15 seems like a lot. I think I will be ready with 5 or so.
 
PilotProficient said:
I concur with previous posters in that 141 vs. 61 for the Multi Engine won't make a big difference for you, check-ride wise, but it is nice to get to know the examiner before the practical test, whether the examiner is internal or external to the school (141/61). Many DPEs don't mind spending some time on the phone or in person with a potential applicant prior to the check ride in any case, so that could be an option worth exploring in the Part 61 environment, if it might help to get comfortable prior to the big day.

If you think it might be useful, there is an online, video-based Multi Engine Ground School at www.PilotProficient.com. It can help with getting prepped for the training and/or check ride, and is offered on a Choose Your Own Pricing basis.

Good luck with your training!
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If you need to get to know the DPE, to feel ready for the ride, you ain't ready for the ride.
 
dell30rb said:
I'm doing my multi add-on part 61. There is no minimum hour requirement to take the checkride. 15 seems like a lot. I think I will be ready with 5 or so.
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Most of my MEL students were ready in around 8-10 on average, using C310s, but they were flying frequently also. At the time we had a VA 20 hour course and after about 10-12 hours we would fly short XC flights to burn up the rest.
 
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James331 said:
If you need to get to know the DPE, to feel ready for the ride, you ain't ready for the ride.
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Sure enough! I certainly wouldn't call it a necessity, but in my experience it is easier to keep the applicant at ease and help prevent nervous "slips" if they have at least met the person performing their evaluation prior to the day of. In any case, seems unlikely to hurt!
 
I did my multi add on under part 61. I was ready for the checkride with about 6 hours, but I think I had closer to 8 or 9 by the time I actually flew with a DPE.

Compare that to the local 141 school that requires 20 hours under their curriculum. Sadly, those extra hours aren't making those students any more proficient than I was right after my checkride. At least not from what I've seen.
 
PilotProficient said:
Sure enough! I certainly wouldn't call it a necessity, but in my experience it is easier to keep the applicant at ease and help prevent nervous "slips" if they have at least met the person performing their evaluation prior to the day of. In any case, seems unlikely to hurt!
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Sure enough, but if they are that easily frazzled into mistakes, what happens when they actually have a engine failure, or anything similar, if they can't handle the stress of a paid DPE sitting there, you really think it's wise to send them off into the world as a fresh multi engine pilot?
 
James331 said:
Sure enough, but if they are that easily frazzled into mistakes, what happens when they actually have a engine failure, or anything similar, if they can't handle the stress of a paid DPE sitting there, you really think it's wise to send them off into the world as a fresh multi engine pilot?
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As a separate issue from technical proficiency and knowledge, which should be in place prior to the check ride, I think it's wise to give the applicant every advantage to pass the practical test, especially when it comes to bypassing nonessential stress not related to performing the required tasks, like unfamiliarity with the personality of a particular DPE.
 
PilotProficient said:
As a separate issue from technical proficiency and knowledge, which should be in place prior to the check ride, I think it's wise to give the applicant every advantage to pass the practical test, especially when it comes to bypassing nonessential stress not related to performing the required tasks, like unfamiliarity with the personality of a particular DPE.
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Seems like you're trying to pass them more than making sure they have the skills, which expand beyond that of technical knowledge. There's a lot more to demonstrating the skills to be a XXX pilot other than technical knowledge.

"nonessential stress" Are you new to flying people around in planes?!

What happens when they have a pax who pushes them to make a flight

Annoying child

Loud wife

Talkative friend

Airsickness situation

If they can't handle a DPE, just sitting there with a clipboard, "steep turn" "let's do slow flight" etc, I'd hate to see what happens in any of the above situations.


Brother, you ain't there to coddle the applicant.
 
James331 - I agree with you but.....

10 hours in a twin to me is nowhere near enough time to become proficient in my opinion. But it can be done in even less. Regardless of my comfortable with the DPE or not, passing a checkride does not make me proficient. I was going for an option where it was fun vs stressful as I had two extremely different experiences in my PPL ride vs IFR ride. The true training and proficiency will come long after the ride!!
 
James331 said:
Seems like you're trying to pass them more than making sure they have the skills, which expand beyond that of technical knowledge. There's a lot more to demonstrating the skills to be a XXX pilot other than technical knowledge.

"nonessential stress" Are you new to flying people around in planes?!

What happens when they have a pax who pushes them to make a flight

Annoying child

Loud wife

Talkative friend

Airsickness situation

If they can't handle a DPE, just sitting there with a clipboard, "steep turn" "let's do slow flight" etc, I'd hate to see what happens in any of the above situations.


Brother, you ain't there to coddle the applicant.
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It is my opinion that an applicant can be both fully prepared for a check ride and to operate in the real world, but also be nervous before the practical test. If I can help minimize the nerves, I'll try to do so.
 
Sometimes I feel better having some milk and cookies before doing something stressful, then I like to have my tummy rubbed, is that also included in your exam fee?
 
I also pipe in some soothing Enya music through each applicant's headset :)
 
I think having an idea of what the DPE wants is part of being prepared. DPEs can have all sorts of pet areas of concentration and pet idiosyncrasies. In a perfect world they would all have the same standards, but they don't. The DPE for my ATP wanted the mighty Duchess flown like a "large or turbine powered airplane", at 1500' AGL pattern altitude. I knew this beforehand and was complimented for doing so. :dunno:
 
Everskyward said:
I think having an idea of what the DPE wants is part of being prepared. DPEs can have all sorts of pet areas of concentration and pet idiosyncrasies. In a perfect world they would all have the same standards, but they don't. The DPE for my ATP wanted the mighty Duchess flown like a "large or turbine powered airplane", at 1500' AGL pattern altitude. I knew this beforehand and was complimented for doing so. :dunno:
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If you fly to the standard, ie PTS/ACS you WILL PASS. Period.
 
James331 said:
If you fly to the standard, ie PTS/ACS you WILL PASS. Period.
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Maybe, but there's nothing wrong with the phrase, "cooperate and graduate". It helps to know what is expected in advance.
 
Everskyward said:
Maybe, but there's nothing wrong with the phrase, "cooperate and graduate". It helps to know what is expected in advance.
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What's expected is listed in black and white in the PTS/ACS

If you don't know what's expected before meeting your DPE/ASI, you're screwed
Might as well pay the retest fee upfront with the initial test fee lol


I take check rides every 6 months, as do 121/135 IFR pilots, many times we don't get a sit down and pat on the head days before we start training. Yet we all know what's expected, it's printed in back and white.
 
James331 said:
What's expected is listed in black and white in the PTS/ACS

If you don't know what's expected before meeting your DPE/ASI, you're screwed
Might as well pay the retest fee upfront with the initial test fee lol


I take check rides every 6 months, as do 121/135 IFR pilots, many times we don't get a sit down and pat on the head days before we start training. Yet we all know what's expected, it's printed in back and white.
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I also take a checkride every 6 months, but I like to know who the examiner is in advance and what to expect of them. If not, oh well, but I don't see anything wrong with being prepared with this information, especially when you are talking about folks who don't take checkrides that often and might be more stressed by the idea.
 
Everskyward said:
I also take a checkride every 6 months, but I like to know who the examiner is in advance and what to expect of them. If not, oh well, but I don't see anything wrong with being prepared with this information, especially when you are talking about folks who don't take checkrides that often and might be more stressed by the idea.
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Those people need to be able to deal with stress even more so, they arnt in the saddle as much, tend to have less experience and also tend to fly with their own family who way out uneducated pressure to make bad decisions.
 
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